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Institutional misogyny

Athos said:
What understanding is gained by knowing the offenders were of Pakistani descent? It tells us some Pakistani men are in peadophile rings that prey on marginalised white girls. But, since some aren't, and since some white men are, then what? What investigative or preventative opportunities does knowing the ethnicity of the offenders in this case rasie for future cases? Seems to me to be very limited; their race isn't a significant factor.
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If 85% of a certain type of crime is committed by a certain group of people why is this not significant?

Why is it not in the public interest to know about this?

Googling Stephen Lawrence killers and taking first results at random comes up with this: Where is Gary Dobson now, why did he murder Stephen Lawrence and what's his family background? Discussion of the killers motivation and background.

Don't you think that's completely reasonable? If so, why would you afford Pakistani rapists protections that you would deny English murderers?

What is your position on Ella Hill's piece in The Independent?
 
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Spymaster said:
If 85% of a certain type of crime is committed by a certain group of people why is this not significant?

Why is it not in the public interest to know about this?

Googling Stephen Lawrence killers and taking results at random comes up with this: Where is Gary Dobson now, why did he murder Stephen Lawrence and what's his family background? Discussion of the killers motivation and background.

Don't you think that's completely reasonable? If so, why would you afford Pakistani rapists protections that you would deny English murderers?
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How did you come up with 85% of a certain type of crime?

I've not said it's not in the public interest know this. It is very widely known; I wouldn't advocate trying to hide it. But I would advocate not ascribing more significance to race than it merits.

What protections have I propsed for Pakistani rapists? Clue: none.
 
Athos said:
How did you come up with 85% of a certain type of crime?
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That was a figure quoted several times in the Nawaz radio piece on Sunday that's referenced in the OP. They talked about Type 1 and Type 2 paedophilia where type one was overt amongst large groups of men preying on young girls long term and passing them around, while type 2 was covert with individuals noncing kids on the quiet. Type 1 was said to be 85% Pakistani group offenders whilst type 2 was 95% white males.

What protections have I propsed for Pakistani rapists?
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The notion that their backgrounds should be considered insignificant. If Dobson et al's backgrounds are significant enough for thousands of pages to be written about them (and I agree that they are) why aren't these guy's?
 
Spymaster said:
That was a figure quoted several times in the Nawaz radio piece on Sunday that's refenced in the OP. They talked about Type 1 and Type 2 paedophilia where type one was overt amongst large groups of men preying on young girls long term and passing them around, while type 2 was covert with individuals noncing kids on the quiet. Type 1 was said to be 85% Pakistani group offenders whilst type 2 was 95% white males.



The notion that their backgrounds should be considered insignificant. If Dobson et al's backgrounds are significant enough for thousands of pages to be written about them (and I agree that they are) why aren't these guy's?
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So a fairly arbitrary divying up of child sexual abuse, then. And, even then, knowing that 85% of 'Type 1' is committed by Pakistani men is significant how?

I'm not saying anything to protect them; I'm saying that becuase nobody (yourself included) has given any credible explanation of the significance of their race. It's not some big cover-up; I just don't think it has enough importance to make it a focus, particularly as that plays into the hands of those who'd like to weaponise the fact.
 
Athos said:
So a fairly arbitrary divying up of child sexual abuse, then. And, even then, knowing that 85% of 'Type 1' is committed by Pakistani men is significant how?
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Well unless you want to argue that all sexual abuse is the same, it's not arbitrary at all is it?

If 85% of a type of crime is committed by a group that represents just 3% of the population, surely that warrants discussion about why they are so heavily over-represented. It IS significant. It's a social issue that's worthy of examination of any cultural proclivities that may facilitate it.

Again, do you consider Ella Hill's piece important at all?

I just don't think it has enough importance to make it a focus, particularly as that plays into the hands of those who'd like to weaponise the fact.
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And I'm saying that NOT discussing and recognising it plays into those hands.
 
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Spymaster said:
If 85% of a type of crime is committed by a group that represents just 3% of the population, surely that warrants discussion about why they are so heavily over-represented. It IS significant. It's a social issue that's worthy of examination of any cultural proclivities that may facilitate it.
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To my knowledge nobody has been able to point towards anything related to those offenders' race that adds any value to future investigations and/or prevention. Please share if you're aware of anything.

Spymaster said:
And I'm saying that NOT discussing and condemning it plays into those hands.
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I've not proposed condemning it as racist; I've esplained I'd address it and move on, without giving it more signifcance than it warrants. Partly becuase it distrcts from the real issues e.g. the victims' class, and partly becasue it gives cover to those who'd use it for dodgy purposes
 
Athos said:
I'm not saying anything to protect them; I'm saying that becuase nobody (yourself included) has given any credible explanation of the significance of their race.
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It's always been the case that different ethnic groups have had different rates of committing different types of crimes due to variations in culture, lifestyle, typical occupation etc. It's especially true of minority populations, whereas the majority population is often more starkly stratified by class in its choices of criminal activity.
 
Athos said:
To my knowledge nobody has been able to point towards anything related to those offenders' race that adds any value to future investigations and/or prevention.
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I'd suggest that there's a case for education within the communities concerned that may engender greater respect for the types of victims concerned. For that to happen it must first be recognised as a significant issue. That though, simply bolsters the case for discussion about the social context in which this is happening anyway. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending there are no racial or cultural implications just gives the advantage to the loons.
 
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8ball said:
It's always been the case that different ethnic groups have had different rates of committing different types of crimes due to variations in culture, lifestyle, typical occupation etc. It's especially true of minority populations, whereas the majority population is often more starkly stratified by class in its choices of criminal activity.
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And?
 
Spymaster said:
I'd suggest that there's a case for education within the communities concerned that may engender greater respect for the types of victims concerned. For that to happen it must first be recognised as a significant issue. That though, simply bolsters the case for discussion about the social context in which this is happening anyway. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending there are no racial or cultural implications just gives the advantage to the loons.
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All males should be taught to respect females - it's not specific to one race.
 
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Athos said:
I've not proposed condemning it as racist; I've esplained I'd address it and move on, without giving it more signifcance than it warrants. Partly becuase it distrcts from the real issues e.g. the victims' class, and partly becasue it gives cover to those who'd use it for dodgy purposes
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I'm not sure I understand why the victims' class is an important issue but the perpetrators' racial background isn't.
 
8ball said:
Yeah, if you want to deal with something, why would you bother trying to understand it. Fair point.
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We understand it - some men of Pakistani descent have little respect for white working class girls. Now what?
 
Athos said:
Err, no. Most CSA does involve grooming.
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Obviously the reference here is to so called grooming gangs who are responsible for thousands of paedophile rapes. But you knew that. You just want to lump them all together because your argument dies on its feet otherwise.
 
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