Indyref 2

Discussion in 'Scotland/Alba' started by weepiper, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. DexterTCN

    DexterTCN Well-Known Member

    There certainly are. Especially on twitter. I doubt twitter will ever reflect anything apart from hundreds of millions of people speaking at once. And it's actually very difficult to report posts, twitter can take a while to get round to taking action...sometimes muting someone for a week, sometimes closing the account. It's too big to moderate reasonably so you'll get some really nasty stuff there.

    But that's twitter.

    Do you think danny's recent points about racism and anti-semitism are reflected in the Scottish independence movement? Is there an implication of racism and/or anti-semitism in regards to indyref2?

    The last conviction I was aware of was in regards to Angela Haggerty.

    Actual trial, actual conviction. yoons weren't very happy, obviously.

    claire racism.jpg
  2. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    What does being followed by thousands mean in twitter terms? It sounds worrying, but I can't set a context for how much.
  3. redsquirrel

    redsquirrel This Machine Kills Progressives

    When did you last stop hitting your wife?

    But you're a perfect example of the loons I mentioned. Your disgusting willingness to overlook transphobia and smears against working class protesters.
  4. DexterTCN

    DexterTCN Well-Known Member

    Is that a no?
  5. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    I think it's a fair question. Those who back brexit have to acknowledge the uncomfortable truth that, to be in the majority, they need to include the racist vote. Winning Scottish independence but only with the racist vote would be worrying.
  6. danny la rouge

    danny la rouge Hoc vellum voluntater album mansum est

    Are you not on Twitter?

    What it means is that his tweets appear in the feeds of 6800 people by choice. (To calibrate: That's much more than Ben Wray of Common Weal, somewhat more than Jonathon Shafi of Radical Independence Campaign, somewhat less than Paul Kavanagh of Wee Ginger Dug, and much less than Pat Kane of Pat Kane).

    I don't follow him, but occasionally people retweet what he says and I'll see it. In this case it was a BBC journalist I have in a current affairs list (lists are useful ways of curating content by subject matter, or by viewpoints etc).

    So his posts have more reach than the average Twitter user (it used to be said the average account has just over 200 followers. Not sure how up to date that is).

    It's true that one doesn't necessarily only follow people one agrees with, but still, anyone looking at social media might assume that this was a fairly popular account amongst pro-independence Twitterati. That would be a pity.
  7. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Thank you. No, I'm not on twitter.
    danny la rouge likes this.
  8. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Ok, for comparison, Peter Dow has 88 followers.

    Not sure what that proves, other than that Peter is probably not a player.

    But Peter generally isn't that bad. He wouldn't do that would he? :hmm:

    (I was kind of hoping Peter would be higher than that)
  9. redsquirrel

    redsquirrel This Machine Kills Progressives

    Danny has not mentioned anti-semitism in this thread, he has only mentioned racism once - when he was explaining someone else's feelings. Dexters post is, as usual, made up nonsense.
    danny la rouge likes this.
  10. Sue

    Sue Well-Known Member

    Not quite sure what you mean?
  11. Celyn

    Celyn Well-Known Member

    :confused: I'm a bit confused. Scotland's electorate voted 62% in favour of remaining in the E.U. Brexit polled 38%.

    I imagine you could find racists on both sides, really, with some aiming their hatred at European Union immigrants, and some at India. Bangladesh, West Indies, whatever. But you'd probably have to save up money and run a good opinion poll to get an idea of the potential racism thing.
    muscovyduck likes this.
  12. DotCommunist

    DotCommunist slowtime

    also of course the scottish remain vote doesn't auto cross over to a yes for indyreff2. Its not a position I'd take but I'm sure there are some who could argue cogently that they wanted Remain but Remain in the UK as an entity
  13. Celyn

    Celyn Well-Known Member

    Plus some who might want to leave the UK and the EU. People can be damned awkward at not staying tidily in little boxes. :D
    pogofish and muscovyduck like this.
  14. danny la rouge

    danny la rouge Hoc vellum voluntater album mansum est

  15. DexterTCN

    DexterTCN Well-Known Member

    You're Pavlov's little dog, aren't you. :)

    You should try reading that site...might learn something. More than you'll ever get here.
  16. Poi E

    Poi E Pessimism: a valuable protection against quackery.

    Who said this?:D

    When the SNP government say that it’s the time to start talking about a new independence referendum, I say that just at this point, all our energies should be focused on our negotiations with the European Union about our future relationship.
  17. danny la rouge

    danny la rouge Hoc vellum voluntater album mansum est

    "Now is not the time, Theresa".
  18. danny la rouge

    danny la rouge Hoc vellum voluntater album mansum est

    It's going to be an interesting time for the Indy ref. The Tories are already fighting the forthcoming Scottish local government elections almost solely on independence. (Which is opportunist Unionism: local government has no say on whether or not there'll be a referendum).

    But given that the Tories are claiming the SNP "has no mandate" for a referendum (which the SNP in fact does by any measure the Tories would apply to themselves), it seems odd for the Tories to hand the SNP an opportunity to get a mandate. Even if the SNP don't win as many seats as they did last time (which was an extraordinary result), they're still going to have a majority of Scottish MPs, (barring the bizarre and improbable). So all the SNP needs to do is be very clear in its manifesto: then what can May do?
  19. Poi E

    Poi E Pessimism: a valuable protection against quackery.

    England and Wales will be voting on Brexit. Scotland voting on independence, whether they want to or not. Northern Ireland voting for perhaps the most opaque future of all.

    The breathtaking cynicism of May, her parochial dog whistle "if you believe you're a citizen of the world you're a citizen of nowhere", all that C of E schoolmarm schtick, makes me think we've got our own, second-rate Trump already.
    pogofish likes this.
  20. danny la rouge

    danny la rouge Hoc vellum voluntater album mansum est

    Yes, with any luck she's just brought forward the end of the UK. Cheers. This could be the last ever UK-wide Westminster general election.
    geminisnake and chilango like this.
  21. chilango

    chilango Neither Westminster nor Brussels....

    May has just publicly washed her hands of Scotland hasn't she?
  22. DexterTCN

    DexterTCN Well-Known Member

    Apparently some parts of the UK are fed up of elections and so on.

    Seems to be the opposite up here.

    If it's true that the greens won't contest seats where it's largely snp v tory then the main goal is no tories. (And the greens are already looking at their post-indy votes.)

    Hopefully the Carmichael score is settled too, even though it's not as relevant. But hopefully.
  23. Sue

    Sue Well-Known Member

    Hmm, I've plenty of family and friends up there who're completely fed up of the whole thing.
  24. DexterTCN

    DexterTCN Well-Known Member

    What thing?
  25. Sue

    Sue Well-Known Member

    Elections and referendums. And that's both yes and no voters and people who've moved between the two since indyref 1.
  26. DexterTCN

    DexterTCN Well-Known Member

    That doesn't tally at all with my experience.Things have been gearing up recently because of the council elections on May 4th.
  27. DexterTCN

    DexterTCN Well-Known Member

    Mr Malky‏ @MrMalky
    Watch the BBC tell you 24/7, that you have voter fatigue and you are fed up with politics
  28. danny la rouge

    danny la rouge Hoc vellum voluntater album mansum est

    Two differing lines opening up on the GE:

    Iain MacWhirter, with some justification, writes:

    "For her part, Sturgeon has made clear that this general election is not about indyref2, the mandate for which has secured in the Scottish Parliament. It is about offering resistance to the right-wing Conservative Party and policies like the rape clause." Iain Macwhirter: Scotland's progressive parties must unite to halt the return of the Tories

    It's true: the Holyrood Parliament did vote for a second referendum. And that should be enough of a mandate. However, the legality seems to be that Holyrood holding a binding referendum without section 30 permission would be ultra vires. So Westminster permission would seem to be a log jam there.

    The SSP (no MSPs, no chance of getting any MPs, and less than a side show these days), are among those who see it differently:

    “A majority of Scottish MPs armed with a clear and unequivocal mandate for independence will provide the base for a relaunched campaign for self-determination after June 8th”

    SSP Demands A “Clear and Unequivocal Call To Reinforce Referendum Mandate” - Scottish Socialist Party

    I've mentioned before that the SNP has come late to referendums on independence. The party policy used to be that a majority of seats in Scotland in a Westminster election would be taken as a mandate for independence. I read (today I think) someone in the National letters page writing that this remains in the party's constitution. I wouldn't know, but have no reason to disbelieve the letter writer.

    I'm of the view that a candidate seeking a pro-independence mandate in my constituency will probably get my vote. (And for practical reasons, that means the SNP). But I'm interested in the line of thinking that says a majority of MPs with a clear enough mandate circumvents the need for a referendum. Or perhaps requires only an advisory referendum to endorse the decision already taken (similar to the 1975 EEC referendum), which would not require a section 30 request.

  29. Poi E

    Poi E Pessimism: a valuable protection against quackery.

    If the Tories grab a few more seats in Scotland and a bigger majority in England the SNP will be told that there is no chance in hell of a referendum in an attempt to provoke the Scottish government into more dramatic measures. "Now is not the time" will harden into "you've had your chance."
  30. DexterTCN

    DexterTCN Well-Known Member

    Local elections are at the end of next week. It's a more complicated system but it will most likely be a good barometer. Whatever else happens, Glasgow is the target. Hopefully the labour voters there won't turn tory.

    The tories will most likely get a few more seats in the GE up here.

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