Industrial Action in the Civil Service!

[Guineveretoo]

Oh and btw I don't think I'd be crossing a GMB picket line as I'm sure the GMB are far better than PCS.

Well I've made my positive move the PCS can fuck right off. I'll tell you something though, if I do become GMB rep for my place I'll communicate a damn sight better than the shower at PCS.

It's all relative. I have heard and witnessed good stories about the GMB (of which I am a member, by the way!) and I have heard and witnessed horror stories about the GMB.

The same is true of the PCS. Parts of them are brilliant.

I offered you some suggestions about how to improve things in your area, in a PM. I am sorry that you decided not to stick with PCS, but to engage, instead, with a union who has no teeth at all, because they can't even get to speak to management. UNISON were right to discourage you from joining, I am afraid.

Perhaps, over a beer, I could talk you in to rejoining PCS

 

[Guineveretoo]

Oooh, I am clearly talking to myself on this thread now! Time to get offline and get me dinner, methinks!

 

[cesare]

I always found the GMB quite effective - but they were recognised, which is obviously the issue here. The GMB's my favourite union.

 

[poster342002]

it's a leaflet, not a book. It can't go into all the ins and outs of every issue for everyone. What use would it have been for a DWP worker in Sheffield to be reading about the fears of a different workplace in a different city if they didnt apply locally? Would it have made them more likely to go out on strike, or less likely? The point of such a leaflet is to help get people out, doing so would have been entirely counter-productive.

The DWP the DWP the DWP the DWP .....

Clearly it's NOT the DWP staff that need convincing, is it? Leaflets that preach to the converted aren't going to be a lot of use in convincing workers in depts like Keyboardjockey's (and others') where levels of solidarity and confidence are small to non-existant.

 

[belboid]

they're also the largest part of the civil service you thick fuck

and i said there should have been extra leaflets for places like kbj's, but to do one aimed at them for the entire union would be stupid.

unless of course, you're looking for excuses to go 'oohh its all crap'

 

[poster342002]

they're also the largest part of the civil service you thick fuck

and i said there should have been extra leaflets for places like kbj's, but to do one aimed at them for the entire union would be stupid.

unless of course, you're looking for excuses to go 'oohh its all crap'

Fine - carry on the way it's going, then. I really am reminded of the gung-ho generals of WW1 who were convicned they were winning the war because they only listened to those that telled them what they wanted to hear and thought any naysayers were just letting the side down by unfounded defeatism - meanwhile, in the real world, disaster unfolded. Or the Iraqi information minister who was convinced the US were being beaten back by the all-powerful Iraqi army.

Hyperbolic comparisons? Probably (although no more so than than hollow triumphalism that'll probably flow from some in the aftermath of this). But the principal lessons are applicable to many situations.

 

[belboid]

yawn, you can't even read can you?

 

[poster342002]

yawn, you can't even read can you?

Whatever.

 

[Cobbles]

I meant the PCS

Bollocks, what you responded to was part of the final sentence, i.e. "looking out for the collective interests of your class or trade is one step away from noncing little girls", not the entire post, liarboy.

That's funny, the bit of my response you quoted was "I never realised that unskilled clerical workers constituted a "class" or that "putting treasury tags through the corner of letters within 3 weeks of them arriving on your desk" was a trade - well, well" - still, I suppose that this kind of inaccurate misrepresentation is the kind of drivel, enriched with the language of the playground that passes for debate these days.

On the basis that one of PCS' bleats is that many of it staff are just above the minimum wage, rather than being civil service fat cats, indicates that the jobs that they're doing (e.g. low level clerical) are hardly rocket science and therefore don't exactly constitute a "trade". I realise that PCS is a vast blob that "represents" everyone from lighthouse keepers to dispensers of tea and buns (all of whom presumably have exactly the same common interests and training levels....) - any concept of association with a common work type or trade is simply ludicrous.

As low level clerical tasks end up replaced by technology, should the Government keep that layer of staff employes as a charitable gesture?

Legions of back office staff have been rooted out of commercial organisations as their jobs were replaced by technology so why should the Civil service be any different?

 

[poster342002]

Cobbles,

What would you like those "back office" staff to do if put out of work? Claim public dole money? Add to the overcrowded queue for work (thus making it even harder for existing unemployed to find work)? What?

 

[Cobbles]

Cobbles,

What would you like those "back office" staff to do if put out of work? Claim public dole money? Add to the overcrowded queue for work (thus making it even harder for existing unemployed to find work)? What?

http://www.reed.co.uk/

303,000 jobs online - one of heaven alone knows how many job brokers on the web.

Worst case scenario: someone on benefits costs the Government and therefore the taxpayer a lot less than an employee with pension contributions, office space etc.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It's all relative. I have heard and witnessed good stories about the GMB (of which I am a member, by the way!) and I have heard and witnessed horror stories about the GMB.

The same is true of the PCS. Parts of them are brilliant.

I offered you some suggestions about how to improve things in your area, in a PM. I am sorry that you decided not to stick with PCS, but to engage, instead, with a union who has no teeth at all, because they can't even get to speak to management. UNISON were right to discourage you from joining, I am afraid.

After the way PCS has treated us and the general lack of communication and the high handed way the leadership treat us and the piss poor departmental reps and the lack of back up for office reps and the lack of understanding for the position of staff on the ground etc etc. I have zero confidence in the pcs full stop.

I want union cover as an employee if I have a problem but what I don't want is the posturing and the lack of concern for front line staff which is what I'm finding with PCS.

I agree with your point about Unison and on the face of it they were right to point me towards the bigger union but they didn't take into account the problems with pcs.

Perhaps, over a beer, I could talk you in to rejoining PCS

If you have a chat with me and my colleagues then you might find out why we are angry.

Unions NEED to have the members confidence that they will represent them in a crisis or when they have a problem. I walked out of the NUJ during the Wapping dispute as I was really on my uppers and I had a disputed invoice that the Daily Star wasn't paying for work I'd done for them. I went to my Mother of Chapel and explained the situaiton and she said 'we've more pressing business for the moment which is giving £500 to the Wapping Fighting Fund' -- now £500 was same amount as I was owed by the Star. I was incensed that I was paying well over the odds for subs and I wasn't getting value for money.

I had zero sympathy for the print workers at the time as they were getting phenomenal amounts of money for doing very little (600 pw for pushing a broom round in one case I knew of) and holding up the introduction of new technology. I used to know a freelance who lived in fear of the NGA discovering that he had a wire machine without an overpaid NGA member operating it.

The NUJ was prepared to give money to the shysters in NGA but were not prepared to help me as a member - so I walked.

 

[cesare]

KeyboardJockey - to what extent do you think the views of your co-workers have been influenced by your personal view of the higher echelons of the PCS? (I kind of asked that question back there ---> but in a less direct way).

 

[KeyboardJockey]

KeyboardJockey - to what extent do you think the views of your co-workers have been influenced by your personal view of the higher echelons of the PCS? (I kind of asked that question back there ---> but in a less direct way).

Not at all really. When it's known that I do not trust the PCS they have been bringing me their worries and concerns about PCS upper echelons.

One guy is a Tory but the rest five so far who've brought me their concens or share the same attitude to me are bog standard lifelong labour or lib dem voters.

As regards grade they are a similar grade to me.

 

[Guineveretoo]

As I say, I am sorry that my attempts to help and be supportive were shunned!

Good luck with the GMB, but I really hope you don't expect them to be able to give you full, accurate or appropriate assistance. I hope you don't just find yourself leaving another union in disgust!

I don't know what you mean by the "upper echelons" of PCS, because different people mean different things by that. Do you mean the General Secretary, or the elected NEC members, or the full time officials, or what? Or do you mean the local union officials?

 

[cesare]

Not at all really. When it's known that I do not trust the PCS they have been bringing me their worries and concerns about PCS upper echelons.

One guy is a Tory but the rest five so far who've brought me their concens or share the same attitude to me are bog standard lifelong labour or lib dem voters.

As regards grade they are a similar grade to me.

When you say 'when it's known' - how do they know?

 

[Zeppo]

Civil Service Strike

Keyboard Jockey hope you like the GMB and understand your issues in your Department but looking at the PCS website www.pcs.org.uk
and there are loads of stories of work places on strike on 31 January.

At my work place there was a lot of strikers but at the same time some people I personally know who passed me on the picket line to go into work. No doubt some will in future come to me for advice and no doubt I will do my best to help them (though some activists would not). We all need to look at the bigger picture, even if locally there are problems.

All unions have their flaws - maybe the GMB and PCS plus others will be involved in a joint mega strike.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Thing is, unions aren't like banks or insurance companies or whatever, in that you can't just change from one to another and expect a good service. Unions are about organising the local workforce, training up and supporting local reps, and learning about the local issues.

The GMB, although a fantastic union in many ways, does not have members in the non-industrial civil service. Without a local branch, there will be no-one to represent or advice or support you. Besides that, the GMB doesn't represent its members in industrial disputes in the civil service, so it doesn't know how the civil service works. It doesn't provide advice to members of the PCSPS, so it doesn't have any knowledge of how the pension scheme works now, or what is proposed in the future. It doesn't have any representation on the local or national whitley, so it won't allow you a voice in pay negotiations or negotiations on other terms and conditions. For the same reason, it doesn't have a voice in the consultations and negotiations about job cuts and other "efficiencies" so, when/if it is your turn, it can't advise you on what you should do, nor represent your views in collective discussions.

The only thing the GMB can do for you is to provide individual representation if you are involved in a disciplinary or grievance investigation. That is all.

If you think that is better than a PCS which may have some local problems, but CAN be changed, with a little bit of expert help and support/advice, and which is recognised for all of the above, and whose members are currently taking action in support of you and your colleagues' jobs, then you are more of a fool than I thought.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Thing is, unions aren't like banks or insurance companies or whatever, in that you can't just change from one to another and expect a good service.

Why not? When I was a member of the NUJ it was almost the last knockings of the closed shop. I HAD to join the NUJ. Why shouldn't I have had a choice of what my subs were going to? I didn't want them going to the print workers as the print workers had IIRC not backed several NUJ disputes in the past and famously had interfered in the editorial of the newspaper.

(I happen to agree politically why they did it with the Sun --Even though I was working for them via a freelance agency at the time -- but it set a bad precedent as you could have had print workers refusing to carry positve articles about more liberal and forward thinking things such as pro lbgt or articles on race etc. Don't forget not every working man in the printshops in the period from the late 60's to the late 80's was pro such things and could have blocked them just the same -- remember the Dockers and Smithfield workers who came out in support of Enoch Powell? -- I think they fucked up though as it made Murdoch more inclined to break away from co-operating with SOGAT82 and NGA.

Although there was and is a great romanticism about the hot metal era it was seriously inefficent and really had to change.

The printworkers were swaggaring braggarts and they killed their own golden egg laying goose. There was a whole world of printing tech opening up and the printing industry just couldn't access it partly because of the refusal of the unions to adapt.


You've heard my story and that is why I ask Why Not to shopping for unions why can't we go for the union that is most efficient and customer focused? We are members with a say as wellas customers but I think we are getting neither in PCS.

I didn't want to support the printworkers whose dispute and whose attitude and rules I didn't care for. My dire emergency as a member was being ignored
while a lost cause I vehmently disagreed with was talked up and supported.

Unions are about organising the local workforce, training up and supporting local reps, and learning about the local issues.

The workforce will not be organised effectively unless workers have confidence in their union - its a vicious circle. Someone has to SELL the union to the workforce and at the moment a lot of poeple I know are not buying PCS. Without involvement you can't do anything you can't organise you cant train up local reps and you cant' educate people about the narrower and broader issues.

The GMB, although a fantastic union in many ways, does not have members in the non-industrial civil service.

I know that.

Without a local branch, there will be no-one to represent or advice or support you. Besides that, the GMB doesn't represent its members in industrial disputes in the civil service, so it doesn't know how the civil service works.

It doesn't provide advice to members of the PCSPS, so it doesn't have any knowledge of how the pension scheme works now, or what is proposed in the future.

That is an issue that I'm worried about but I'm glad I didn't sign up for the new CS pension scheme.

It doesn't have any representation on the local or national whitley, so it won't allow you a voice in pay negotiations or negotiations on other terms and conditions. For the same reason, it doesn't have a voice in the consultations and negotiations about job cuts and other "efficiencies" so, when/if it is your turn, it can't advise you on what you should do, nor represent your views in collective discussions.

Many of us are not confident that PCS can do this either.

The only thing the GMB can do for you is to provide individual representation if you are involved in a disciplinary or grievance investigation. That is all.

At the moment thats all I really want from a union and all I can realistically expect. I expect the lowest from PCS and therefore I'm not expecting much more from GMB in terms of service.

If you think that is better than a PCS which may have some local problems, but CAN be changed, with a little bit of expert help and support/advice, and which is recognised for all of the above, and whose members are currently taking action in support of you and your colleagues' jobs, then you are more of a fool than I thought.

How can PCS be changed? I think the union needs to recognise that they are operating in many different work spheres. From benefit offices, the higher offices of state, areas that are under very strict security, museums etc etc etc.

These big one day civil service strikes are voted for by big left dominated departments such as DWP. It doesn't take into account the fact that there are other departments where people are trained to see and think of themselves as apolitical because there jobs involve being seen to be absolutely clean as clean and impartial. This means that they are less willing to associated with the various trotlet groupings on the left of the PCS and who occupy powerful positions such as Serwotka and his supporters. They are as uncomfortable with the message and the attitude. This means that there is a self fullfilling spiral. People see the union being 'Political' and have less involvement, they then don't vote in union elections, the more motivated swappies etc do vote and get more power, thereby frightening a lot of apoltical people away more so they are involved less and on and on it goes.

Do you suggest that a new 'faction' in PCS is formed to fight back against Serwotka and co? Would you say that that is the best way of bringing more people back in to the union in an active way?

I only know the present system isn't working.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Why not? When I was a member of the NUJ it was almost the last knockings of the closed shop. I HAD to join the NUJ. Why shouldn't I have had a choice of what my subs were going to? I didn't want them going to the print workers as the print workers had IIRC not backed several NUJ disputes in the past and famously had interfered in the editorial of the newspaper.

(I happen to agree politically why they did it with the Sun --Even though I was working for them via a freelance agency at the time -- but it set a bad precedent as you could have had print workers refusing to carry positve articles about more liberal and forward thinking things such as pro lbgt or articles on race etc. Don't forget not every working man in the printshops in the period from the late 60's to the late 80's was pro such things and could have blocked them just the same -- remember the Dockers and Smithfield workers who came out in support of Enoch Powell? -- I think they fucked up though as it made Murdoch more inclined to break away from co-operating with SOGAT82 and NGA.

Although there was and is a great romanticism about the hot metal era it was seriously inefficent and really had to change.

The printworkers were swaggaring braggarts and they killed their own golden egg laying goose. There was a whole world of printing tech opening up and the printing industry just couldn't access it partly because of the refusal of the unions to adapt.


You've heard my story and that is why I ask Why Not to shopping for unions why can't we go for the union that is most efficient and customer focused? We are members with a say as wellas customers but I think we are getting neither in PCS.

I didn't want to support the printworkers whose dispute and whose attitude and rules I didn't care for. My dire emergency as a member was being ignored
while a lost cause I vehmently disagreed with was talked up and supported.

You can - you can join whichever trade union will have you, but you can't expect the full service from them, because, as I listed, they are not able to provide you with a service whilst you are in the civil service, for all the reasons I listed.

The workforce will not be organised effectively unless workers have confidence in their union - its a vicious circle. Someone has to SELL the union to the workforce and at the moment a lot of poeple I know are not buying PCS. Without involvement you can't do anything you can't organise you cant train up local reps and you cant' educate people about the narrower and broader issues.

So, why don't you become one of the local reps, get yourself trained up, and then sell the PCS to your colleagues? I am afraid you can't do that easily with the GMB because they simply do not have the expertise to deal in the civil service, and they are not recognised, so a GMB rep would not be able to go to any meetings with management.

I know that.

So, can you not understand why they are not even able to provide you with a service as good as that which PCS can?

That is an issue that I'm worried about but I'm glad I didn't sign up for the new CS pension scheme.

I hope you mean you are in the old pension scheme. The GMB know nothing about it, honestly. If you need any pensions advice, they would not be able to provide it.

Many of us are not confident that PCS can do this either.

If there are many of you, then why not get yourselves active in PCS. There is no active Branch in the part of your department where you work. Get in there!

At the moment thats all I really want from a union and all I can realistically expect. I expect the lowest from PCS and therefore I'm not expecting much more from GMB in terms of service.

Regrettably, GMB will NOT be able to support you when you have to apply for your own job, which you were implying earlier you would have to do. They will only be able to help you in very, very limited circumstances, and only then if you can track down a full time official who is willing to give you the time. You see, a GMB full timer cannot and will not prioritise providing support to their sole member in the civil service, where they are not recognised, and not seeking recognition.

How can PCS be changed? I think the union needs to recognise that they are operating in many different work spheres. From benefit offices, the higher offices of state, areas that are under very strict security, museums etc etc etc.

From within, KBJ, from within! You certainly can't change it by not being part of it! They know they operate in different areas - they have different structures, and different ways of working. You are in an area which is desperately crying out for organising. I gave you the name of the full time official who works in that area, and who would be delighted to know that there are a group of PCS members there who are so disgruntled that they want to do it themselves!

These big one day civil service strikes are voted for by big left dominated departments such as DWP. It doesn't take into account the fact that there are other departments where people are trained to see and think of themselves as apolitical because there jobs involve being seen to be absolutely clean as clean and impartial. This means that they are less willing to associated with the various trotlet groupings on the left of the PCS and who occupy powerful positions such as Serwotka and his supporters. They are as uncomfortable with the message and the attitude. This means that there is a self fullfilling spiral. People see the union being 'Political' and have less involvement, they then don't vote in union elections, the more motivated swappies etc do vote and get more power, thereby frightening a lot of apoltical people away more so they are involved less and on and on it goes.

I agree. What are you going to do about it? Clearly, you failed to get your colleague members to vote against the strike

Do you suggest that a new 'faction' in PCS is formed to fight back against Serwotka and co? Would you say that that is the best way of bringing more people back in to the union in an active way?

Is that what you think would help? Do you see the General Secretary as being the problem? Have you considered what I have said over and over again - organising locally, and ignoring the national politics of the union. It's not relevant to protecting your jobs and terms and conditions, is it?

I only know the present system isn't working.

And you have no chance of making it work by leaving the union and joining another one which will take your subs but give you nothing at all in exchange. And you can't even complain, because there is no-one to complain to.

Your choice, but, to my mind, you are not trying, and you are not listening.

 

[poster342002]

Clearly, you failed to get your colleague members to vote against the strike

Err, I think you may have misunderstood: members in Keyboardjockey's dept probably DID vote against the strike, but the total ballot went in favour of a strike because of the large numbers of pro-strike votes in areas like the DWP.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Err, I think you may have misunderstood: members in Keyboardjockey's dept probably DID vote against the strike, but the total ballot went in favour of a strike because of the large numbers of pro-strike votes in areas like the DWP.

You are right - I didn't express myself very well