Independent Working Class Association in Brixton?

[IntoStella]

I absolutely refute the idea that the only way you can get anywhere is to make sure you are chums with lawyers. Not everyone has that ''luxury'', should they even want it.

That is the opposite of democracy. It sucks. And don't tell me that lawyers will support a worthy campaign out of a sense of social justice. We are talking about lawyers here. Their interests are often diametrically at odds with those of the community, even if they live in it. Why should they care if a local state school closes when their own kids are at an expensive private school?

You are adopting an absurdly narrow definition of politics if you think a campaign to save a school is not political. You refuse to acknowledge that what you actually did was to pressure the councillors to do what you wanted. You can call it what you like but that is politics.

Don't you think the councillors are looking at the situation in political terms, ie whether their electoral arse is on the line? If you can't see that you're being naive. Moreover, you have entirely proven my point by arguing that you can only achieve anything if you know the right people -- ie if you are privileged and middle class.

 

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by Buzz sw9
but I would guess I'm a far bit older

I doubt it.

No, I don't think getting out of bed in the morning is political. But I do think a campaign putting pressure on councillors is inevitably political. Some LBL councillors do a lot of good work but they have all, always, got an eye on the polls.

 

[hatboy]

In UK Politics IntoStella said:

"We have been having a discussion about setting up a Brixton area IWCA on the Brixton boards and had a barrage of comments to the effect of ''Ooh no! You mustn't talk about the working class! It will put everyone off! The term working class is really intimidating!", "Nobody sees themselves as being working class these days" and "There's no such thing as class any more!" We had to move the discussion because it grew, quite naturally, out of a thread about antisocial use of fireworks and we were, apparently, getting ''too political'' and ''frightening people''. Criminy!"

No-one was foolish enough to say there's no such thing as class any more and you know it IntoStella.

People who care deeply about social justice aren't always working-class and/or don't always call themselves working class, that's all.

I'm actually increasingly impressed with some of the IWCA doings, but I'd feel awkward joining myself because I don't want to be a poser/inauthentic. My financial status is bottom of the heap, but my up-bringing can be most accurately described in class terms as lower-middleclass. Therefore, since I like to be honest about myself, the IWCA name puts off this potential supporter. I know many people who's class would most accurately be described as working-class, but who'd also be put off because they don't define themselves in class terms.

And I think I've hit on my biggest problem with the IWCA and this discussion with this:

Plus, many people associate any organization with "working class" in the title with middle-class people trying to be "down with the community". This is very off putting whatever class you are if you are concerned about presenting yourself authentically.

Also "work" has changed so much in the last few decades that "working class" just sounds dated.

There's an irony in this because I'm not suggesting that the IWCA should be re-named/New Laboured with the help of spin and focus groups, but is there another name that would be better?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Originally posted by hatboy
Also "work" has changed so much in the last few decades that "working class" just sounds dated.

I don't think this is true. I don't think there's much more mobility between classes and there's certainly a great deal more inequality between them. If the term can seem dated it may be because the unions have been much weaker over the last two decades than they were over, say, the previous three, and so people think less of being part of something - they seem to have to make their way individually more than they used to. But that pendulum will swing back again, as it always does.

 

[butchersapron]

If the term 'working class' sounds dated why did nearly 70% of those questioned in the annual Mori poll identify themselves as working class ("and proud of it")? Are these people similiarly outdated?

"It seems, then, that over the period of office of the present government there has been a remarkable renaissance in the feeling of working class solidarity - a period during which, measured by conventional definitions, the size of the British working class has continued to fall. (Or just possibly, if the changed result is caused by the interviewing method, respondents find it easier to claim working-class feelings when speaking face-to-face and deprived of the anonymity of a self-completion questionnaire, suggesting that they feel the climate of opinion favours the working class identity, which makes the same point in a different way.) At any rate, two-thirds of the adult public now claim to feel "working class and proud of it"; so, indeed, do 55% of those who we would normally in our surveys call "middle class", the ABC1s."

Report

 

[hatboy]

Mm, funnily enough Justin I was just thinking something like that while writing. Work has changed (decline in manufacturing, the rise of IT, etc).

BUt, however it's labelled, this country certainly needs a government/elected representatives more in touch with the needs of the ordinary and the poor, and ethnic minorities. (I know that sounds a bit of a cliche, but I really don't think we are there yet. And often I feel divisions between people are becoming wider).

 

[Gramsci]

Well Ive read the first 2 and a half pages.Theirs a lot of stuff about class-not surprisingly.To much to comment on.Up to a point I am active in the area-the bike shop,Brixton Forum(formerly) and a residents group-but Im not a full time politico.

1)The debate about class also goes on within Marxism itself-ie the old one about whether a teacher is working class or middle class.So its not anti Marxism to pose these questions and debate them.I wont go into the whole area here as it will take up to much space.However without getting doctranairre about this class struggle takes many forms and if I get my Marx right is something that you cant "reform" out of Capitalism as social democrats believe.

Their are those theorists-Marcuse,Negri etc who would argue that in Late Capitalism or post industrial society the idea of a revolutionary traditional Marxist working class no longer has the relevance it used to have.I think Hatboy,Mike etc think like this(excuse me if I presuming to much here).That does not mean that people who think like this are less radical than say Justin(and what Justin says on class makes a lot of sense).Its that they have a different angle on society.

2)The IWCA have been effective in North London giving disillusioned Labour voters a way of opposing the Neo Liberal agenda of the New Labour project.In Brixton the U75 board has been where campaigns have been organised--Paddick,the bike shop.It IMO makes it possible to campaign on local issues in a way that is open and pluralist.I dont think say Pooka would join a Brixton IWCA.

Being in a residents group I have some idea of the work involved.I pragmatically believe in keeping things simple-if the U75 board provides a platform and organising space then why not use it-it works-why set up something else?

3)Pragmatism/Compromise--Im not an out and out Anarchist I realise u have to compromise to get people on board.The bike shop issue-which was really about Gentrification-is a case in point.The line i persued was protection of small businesses,local amenity and Brixtons character from greedy businessmen.On the face of it not that radical.It did mean that it was something that people could sign up to-so as I saw it their was a coalition of liberals,old lefties and Brixton "alternative" society opposing the bike shop.

 

[ernestolynch]

Originally posted by hatboy
Also "work" has changed so much in the last few decades that "working class" just sounds dated.

There's an irony in this because I'm not suggesting that the IWCA should be re-named/New Laboured with the help of spin and focus groups, but is there another name that would be better?

Do you have to work for a living, hatters old bean?

Independent Shirking Class Association?

 

[pooka]

Intostella:

Forgive me, but I don't have the stamina to go on posting lengthening posts of quote and counter-quote, whilst still maintaining the will to live. So here's one last attempt:

1.You maintain that the police are failing to deal with Somerleyton Road because they don't respond to the needs of working class people, but can't be arsed to even ask them what they are or are not doing, or to find out why the chair of the TA is so fulcome in her praise. I for one would take more notice of you if you had. Otherwise, I interpret your stance as the usual start with a class analysis and then interpret the evidence as fits.

(Incidentally, I hold no brief for said chair, but unless she made those claims directly to yourself or someone else who'll stand up in court and say so, then you might want to consider editing your post to protect these boards. The person concerned has told me directly that her barrister is Michael Mansfield!)

2. Are estates overwhelmingly "working class"? Probably, although most of the people I know who live on estates aren't and wouldn't identify themselves as such. But in my terms, the most salient thing is (1) what sort of deal they are getting on their estate and (2) what sort of deal we are all getting in Brixton, regardless of where we live or what class you might assign to us.

3. "You suggest that they are more diligent around Herne Hill -- can you evidence this? "

"That is your area of expertise, pooka. I'm sure you already know the answers"

Ah. so that constitutes an arguement does it?

4.IS "Cleaning up CHL was a PR exercise because Lambeth wanted people to continue to travel there at weekends for the nightlife and spend lots of cash."

Why? Lambeth (I assume you mean the Council) doesn't get any of the money spent on CHL.

5. pooka: "(the prime mover amongst the skaters is an architect

IS "That doesn’t surprise me at all."

Care to elaborate what that means and how it refutes my point, which is that here is a local issue for which a class based analysis is unlikely to be productive?

6. IS "Tell you what, let's just keep the status quo that serves you so well and leave it to the usual crew of paternalistic liberals to take care of everyone. After all, they always know best, don’t they? "

Why do you think the status quo serves me any better than anyone else?

7.IS: "Oh for god's sake. Why don't you just read the sodding evidence and tell me where IWCA talks about class struggle?" & "Exactly. So go and look at the work the IWCA has actually done and what it has achieved instead of cooking up all this negative weaselly stuff."

That's like saying if you want to know how well the Government is doing, go and read the Labour Party's website! But while we're at it, you might want to explain why blocking a grant to the London Symphony Orchestra, to work in schools in EC1. was such a good thing?

gramsci: I agree entirely, constructing coalitions around issues is far more likely to be successful - even if it is much harder work.

ernesto: this isn't the Politics Forum - here we mostly try to address the arguements not the person, and aren't impressed by that sort of sub-Littlejohn sneering.

 

[Gramsci]

Poor old Infostella I do agree with a lot of your sentiments ur getting a lot of flack here.

Im trying to think quickly here so forgive me if i get things wrong.I agree with Past Carings posts of how Thatcherism destroyed the idea of left wing politics.Its really hard these days to talk or debate in any political terms.U get ridiculed or ignored.The last party conferences were an example-god how tedious they were.

Buzz sw9-I have a real problem with this non political stuff.On the School thread I started what I did was google info of the web about what a City Academy really is in practise.I then had an opinion about it.I call that being political.I dont see that as a problem.

Ur I assume part of the school campaign-good.But to argue that dealing with bureaucrats is not political is beyond me.It might not be waving the red flag on the barricades but it still is political.The decision of the Council to close a school is a political choice they(the Councillors in the end) make.Its a fallacy to see schooling as a neutral area.The fact that u say bureaucrats tried to close the school is interesting.It begs the questions who set up this bureaucracy?Why is it not more accountable and whose interests does it serve?Who should have the power to close a school?etc--numerous political questions.

Maybe its how my mind works-I see a lot of the debate on a new school in Brixton being largely couched in technical/"non political" terms.But if u talk to people involved in the schools campaign they do have an idea of what kind of school they want-non denominational,all ability(comprehensive) locally controlled school.Thats political in my book.

This takes me back to Pookas point about going to the Council run Brixton Forums.I did use to go but I found u got a hard time if u went on about subjects the Council didnt want--ie Asset sales,protecting social housing.The Brixton Town Centre Mge work for the Council in the end-(see my post on the Brixton policing thread Ive just bumped up).Properdiscussion was not encouraged outside the boundaries set by the Council.Also the Council encourages consultation then when it chooses to "forgets" it--see the case of Somerleyton Rd.The original plans for it were put on hold by the Council without informing residents because they want to build a school their.

In the Brixton Forum the most influential is the Herne Hill group.I dont like to have to say this but they were from the beginning always treated differently from the likes of pepole like me.They are a classic "non political" dominated group who IMO are small c conservative-have their good points but I never felt welcome their(I was in Herne hill ward before Coldharbour was set up.)

Pooka is correct that their are more than one "community" in Brixton.The way the Brixton Forum was set up was based on thwe fallacy(and still is)that "we" the community will all work together to make Brixton a better place.The bike shop saga showed this not to be true-their are different views on Brixton-someone has to lose.We won that one.

What does undermine Pookas argument a bit is that the Bike shop saga was done outside the Brixton Forum.This gave us a lot more independance.Once the local councillors realised we were a credible campaign that had a lot of local sympathy for the issues it raised they supported us.In the end the bike shop planniing decision will feed into the new UDP.All this done outside the Brixton Forum (and we could have done with some practical support as it was time consuming).This campaign would not have worked without U75 and those who voluntarily run it.My question for Pooka is as this site is a valid arena for local issues why dont councillors engage with it?Its all very well to say that people should attend "Forums" but why cant the Council be a bit more open minded about how they deal with local residents?

I however think it would be a good idea if some of us did go to these some of these council meetings(with no illusions)as this is where the info etc is.If we shared it out we could do it.Im sure the IWCA turn up to council meetings to lobby on local issues.I suppose Im talking about an informal "awkward squad" for Brixton(but being constructive as we were on the bike shop).
If we shared info etc we would not be isolated residents.

 

[hatboy]

Thanks Pooka.

Ernesto - wrong thread, wrong forum, and mind your own.

 

[hatboy]

"gramsci: I agree entirely, constructing coalitions around issues is far more likely to be successful - even if it is much harder work. "

I agree. I thought that post was really even-handed.

I'm going to more Brixton Area Forum meetings now. I think it's possible that the BAF may become more independent soon.

 

[Spud Murphy III]

There is also an organisation called TELCO - The East London Communities Organisation - who have done a lot of good work. They are looking to expand south of the river, and people may care to have a look at their website: www.telcocitizens.org.uk

I like a lot of the things the IWCA are doing and think they have an original and interesting approach to a lot of issues. On some matters they are the 'expert voice', so I am happy to support them by bunging them some money each month via standing order. I would also do other things but it is not exactly clear to me what kind of help they need or what someone like me can contribute. This is one area where they need to get better organised in my opinion. Simply adding to the growing 'aren't they wonderful' chorus here hardly counts - plus I suspect some will begin to get fed up hearing about them.

Brixton is quite an unusual place, as are many parts of inner London, that has few parallels in the rest of the country. It is a kind of bohemian district. Something like the IWCA would be better off turning their attentions to places like Dagenham or Coventry.

 

[Gramsci]

Originally posted by Spud Murphy III
There is also an organisation called TELCO - The East London Communities Organisation - who have done a lot of good work. They are looking to expand south of the river

Brixton is quite an unusual place, as are many parts of inner London, that has few parallels in the rest of the country. It is a kind of bohemian district. Something like the IWCA would be better off turning their attentions to places like Dagenham or Coventry.

I agree with this-though I would say its a mixture of bohemians,refugees,1st and 2nd generation immigrants,working class with a high proportion of ethnic minorites.

Ive heard good things about TELCO-they have done a lot for the low paid etc.Im interested that they are thinking of moving south.I dont know how this would cut across the Council forums.

 

[hatboy]

"South London Citizens" is a much more widely appealing name IMHO. I like it.

 

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by pooka
Forgive me, but I don't have the stamina to go on posting lengthening posts of quote and counter-quote, whilst still maintaining the will to live.

So you will understand why I'm not going to bother spending the rest of the night responding to all this nitpicking except to say a couple of things.

or to find out why the chair of the TA is so fulcome in her praise.....
(Incidentally, I hold no brief for said chair, but unless she made those claims directly to yourself or someone else who'll stand up in court and say so, then you might want to consider editing your post to protect these boards. The person concerned has told me directly that her barrister is Michael Mansfield!)

Ah, pooka. (Wipes away tears of mirth. She told you her barrister is Michael Mansfield and you believed her?? ROFL . I have done nothing wrong. The claims reported earlier have been witnessed by many people. Try not to be such a dupe. I have just discussed the Michael Mansfield claim, and what I said earler, with a certain mutual friend of ours who is well up on the subject, and I have been vindicated.

"That is your area of expertise, pooka. I'm sure you already know the answers"

Ah. so that constitutes an arguement does it?

What do you think I am? Stupid? You are the police expert. You know all the answers and are simply trying to make a patsy of me. Leave off on these disingenuous suggestions that if I complained the police would do something (and that the problem is MY FAULT if I don't complain). What about Josephine Avenue -- your own example? I would simply be fobbed off with the same excuses you have already made. Why waste my time?

Lambeth (I assume you mean the Council) doesn't get any of the money spent on CHL.

It gets money from the businesses who take the money spent on CHL. I would need to check the figures but I would imagine night economy businesses pulling in £20000 to £25000 a week, maybe more, pay the council a lot of money.

 

[IntoStella]

Hello

Originally posted by Buzz sw9
it is not unreasonable to conclude that someone who goes to a pub on a Saturday night, the same Saturday night as a crucial England international football match and takes with them to read a copy if Insurrection for Beginners could think “getting out of bed in the morning is political”

You see this symbol, buzz --> ?
It means that the person is making A JOKE. And what the f*** has a football match got to do with my politics?????

 

[pooka]

gramsci:

I agree with some of your points re the Brixton Forum. I think it has a number of issues to resolve.

1. How to work closely with the Council (and other agencies) - there is a lot of value in terms of "inside track stuff" - whilst maintaining independence. As hatboy says, there is talk of the Forum taking on a more arms legnth relationship.

2. I'm not sure I'd say that Herne is most influential in the Forum overall - Herne is the most organised and best attended of the sub-Fora, but Brixton Hill is a close second. The chair of the overall Forum Board is from Ferndale and each ward (and topic based group, like Environment or Crime) has one representative). Most of the ongoing initiative are from without Herne Hill eg the Angel/Coldharbour Action Plan, the Wee Bit of Pressure Campaign (Environment), Crack Out (Crime), Raleigh Gardens (the Forum), the Windmill (Brixton Hill) and so on.

3. There is a real issue around Asset Sales, and the Council's reluctance to engage. There may be other ways round that, on an issue by issue basis, and through the Councillor's Area Committee, something that is starting to happen now Labour is in opposition.

4. The old bike shop. I'm not clear of the history of this with respect to the Forum. But there is general point of how the Forum functions over issues where there is no concensus across the community(ies). Best I can come up with is that where there is clear and overwhelming concensus, then the Forum should take a position - like with Public Pissing. Where there isn't then the Forum should be the place where people can expect to get unbiased information, to argue their case and to have the opportunity to hear alternative views. In that sense, there's no reason why stuff shouldn't go on outside as well as within the Forum - it will anyway - but people should be able to use the Forum to make their case.

5. Zero-Tolerance or Broken Windows. I'm not sure that this is what is on offer. There are two strands being put forward -- one is addressing "quality of life issues" - how civilised is the tube station for example. The other is about addressing stuff which provides a meliu for crime eg people hanging around the tube or Tate Gardens provide the opportunity for people who are intent on more than a can of Kestrel or selling tube tickets, to blend in. But generally, I would accept your point that what constitutes "anti-social" behaviour should be open to debate.

6. I also think the Forum needs to address the issue of how open it is to people who don't want to sit through meetings, or don't function well in that environment, if it's not to be dominated by the usual "middle class, white" suspects. A presence on the market, for example, or at the very least a website!

7. As regards why Councillors don't contribute to U75 - well, maybe they saw what happened to Paddick! Unfair though it is, I can well imagine why they might we wary of attracting the sort of labelling that would go with it. But it's regrettable they've not set up their own boards, perhaps that's a job for the Forum*

We also need to be mindful that, homely though it might be for us, U75 is a very small constituency within Brixton.

*Worth remembering that, if the Forum is to develop a more arms legnth position with respect to the Council, then it needs to get effort/funding from somewhere. I've been impressed by the amount of volunteer effort that already goes into it. The two guys who facilitated the UDP meeting, to good effect I thought, were up half the night plowing through stuff which the Council had delivered to them late.

 

[pooka]

IS - we're not going to get much further with this. I'm sorry you think my responses "nit-picking". May I borrow your pot and pan metaphor?

The exclamation mark after m'learned friend Mansfield's name was meant to indicate my view of the likely veracity of the claim. But the point remains - if someone wanted to cause trouble based on what you posted, then there is material there. If your confident that the many people to whom said claims have been made would say so in a libel case, then fine.

It [Lambeth Council] gets money from the businesses who take the money spent on CHL. I would need to check the figures but I would imagine night economy businesses puling in maybe £20000 or £25000 a week, maybe more, pay the council a lot of money.

I assume you mean business rates? They are not paid to Lambeth Council, but into HM Treasury coffers. They are dolled out as part of the rate support (or whatever it's called now) settlement, and not in any proportion to how much is raised by locality.

Bottom line, if you want to set up a Brixton IWCA, then have the courage of your convictions and go for it. I'm sure your robust enough to withstand critiques (and critics) on Urban75! And put yourself up for PR-person when it's up and running.

Try not to be such a dupe.

With that sort of charm, you'll make a lot of allies

 

[IntoStella]

Ah, quoting people out of context. Your favourite pastime.

As for the remarks you are so worried about, other posters have said the same things, if you look at other threads, such as the school one.

 

[pooka]

"Ah, quoting people out of context."

Intostella, calling someone a "dupe" is offensive, whatsover the context.

Regarding, the multifaceted persona of the TA chair, I was not making a debating point. I don't think anyone has produced such a list on another thread - they expressed their opinions. Your source, our mutual friend, will attest just how much trouble can be caused (and has been in the past) , howsover tenuous the basis by someone with a creative grip on reality. If you feel that Mike and the mods can be arsed to have to deal with the risk of that, then fine. Your (or their) call.

 

[Gramsci]

Originally posted by pooka

[I agree with some of your points re the Brixton Forum. I think it has a number of issues to resolve.]

The idea of making it "arms length" could make it worse.Their are already community/amenity groups in the area that can do this role.I regard the Forum as an extension of the Council-and deal with it as such.IMO it should be got rid of.At least at the new Area Committees elected Councillors are present.I agree with Anna on this I want to deal with the elected representatives directly not unelected " community workers" in Brixton Town Centre Mge.If that means Councillors need more allowances the money from closing the Forums can be spent on that.


[ The old bike shop. I'm not clear of the history of this with respect to the Forum. But there is general point of how the Forum functions over issues where there is no concensus across the community(ies). Best I can come up with is that where there is clear and overwhelming concensus, then the Forum should take a position ]

Their was a large consensus against the bike shop plans thats the whole point and why in the end the councillors came on board.Their was no Forum consensus on the Raleigh Hall-that was pushed through by the Town Centre Mge.


[We also need to be mindful that, homely though it might be for us, U75 is a very small constituency within Brixton]

I do look at the minutes for the some of the Forum meetings and the attendance is variable to say the least.Its no more or less "representative" than these boards.

 

[Gramsci]

Originally posted by hatboy


[And no, you, AK, Justin, Gramsci and Bob cannot take over this board with the constant politicking. That isn't going to happen. You'd be making it less attractive to lots of people who already think u75 is just afew Albert bores.

Sorry, that really wasn't meant to sound horrible or personal. But people are saying to me this board is suffering because of this stuff.]


Come off it Hatboy-u start some of these political discussions-u go on about gentrification,policing etc.

And I do take it personally and its a serious allegation.I cant see how I dominate the boards when my post count is so low.Am I underestimating my own influence here .

The number of hits the more "political" threads get hardly backs up your argument that the boards are suffering.The Secondary School one I started on 10/9 has had 1301 hits(and has led to new members) and this thread 937 since 9/10.The Dogstar thread has had 3004 hits.This puts these threads up their as some of the most popular.If people were getting put off they would vote with their feet(or rather mice ).

Ive got one thread I started up at the moment.Its hardly as though people like me are starting up threads and stopping space for anyone else.

I never complain about threads Im not interested in I just move on somewhere else.

 

[pooka]

"Their are already community/amenity groups in the area"

Indeed there are - but they tend to be issue or location specific eg Friends of Brockwell Park or XYZ Tennants and Residents Association. I think it's absolutely right that they should pursue their specific concerns, which they are best placed to do. But there are areas which go across Brixton eg Crime displacement or the Town Centre, which we all use, and there are issues which are common across the Town eg Youth Provision, or Public Pissing. I think the Forum has a role where Brixton people, in the guise of their different associations, or as individuals, can work together to seek solutions. A kind of networking hub if you like.

I agree with you that the Forum, or any other association, is not a substitute for local democracy: at the end of the day we elect councillors to make decisions and to be held to account. But, I do think that where we have a turnout of only 26% across the borough, there is room for other forms of participation to bolster democracy that goes beyond individuals turning up at their councillors' surgeries. I also agree that the Area Committees of councillors will have a growing importance, but public participation in those is limited to set questions, which have to be tabled in advance. They are not discussion/thinking/action fora for ordinary people.

In addition, I think that local people working together are much more capable of doing the much vaunted "joined up" thinking than the beaurocracy (which tends to be intensely departmental) or councillor's (who can be party-partisan, sometimes not in obvious ways).

As regards the bike shop (and I write as someone who objected on the basis that we don't need another nightclub there, with all the implicatons for crime) there was consensus in the immediate vicinity, but I'm not sure how much wider that went. I have heard people say (for example) "Drug dealing is everywhere across London, its not an inevitable consequence" or "Clapham has more late night bars and doesn't have the same problems" and so on.

"I do look at the minutes for the some of the Forum meetings and the attendance is variable to say the least.Its no more or less "representative" than these boards."

You're right. the attendance is patchy, but they are open to anyone, people come and go, they can contribute as much or as little as they want. To contribute to U75, you need to have access to a computer, be comfortable with using it, and fairly thick skinned if what you have to say doesn't quite fit with the prevailing world view - I've never seen "rudeness" at any of the Forum meetings that is sometimes displayed here, for example.

As regards representativeness, I think I've met most of the regular Brixton posters and do feel that most Furm meetings draw a wider cross-section, in lifestyle, age etc. Just my impression.

 

[hipipol]

Christ.
If this is what its like when the idea has just been mooted, I should think any meeting will be fairly "lively" like.
I thought the idea was to bring people together?
Am I missing something?

 

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by pooka
"Ah, quoting people out of context."

Intostella, calling someone a "dupe" is offensive, whatsover the context.

Regarding, the multifaceted persona of the TA chair, I was not making a debating point.

Errrr.... excuse me? You were citing the fulsome praise of the person in question as your only defence of the police's inaction in Somerleyton Road. Having made yourself look a bit of a twit by obviously at least half believing that her barrister might be Michael Mansfield, you're now ''offended" by a pretty innocuous remark. You can't answer the question re police doing nothing about problems in Josephine Avenue and so you're attacking on another front (or ''clutching at straws'') by claiming I have said something legally contentious. Surely you can do better than that?

As for people not being ''rude'' in the Brixton area forum, I think sniping and attacking people through nasty straw man arguments are just as undesirable. For example, you recently tried to make out that Anna Key was against crack houses being closed. I think that's pretty rude, even though you did it in an insidious way.

 

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by hipipol
Christ.
If this is what its like when the idea has just been mooted, I should think any meeting will be fairly "lively" like.
I thought the idea was to bring people together?
Am I missing something?

Hipipol -- have a look at the IWCA threads in UK politics, where people who are at least partly in agreement with its aims -- or at least not totally antagonistic towards them -- are having some productive discussions about it.

I think these are far more representative of what an IWCA meeting would be like, apart from the odd incursion from people who seem to think it is the biggest threat to civilisation the world has ever seen.

 

[editor]

Originally posted by hipipol
Christ.
If this is what its like when the idea has just been mooted, I should think any meeting will be fairly "lively" like.
I thought the idea was to bring people together?
Am I missing something?

Indeed. Seeing as the whole point of the ICWA is to bring the community together, it seems strange to see a thread with so many aggressive postings and personal attacks.

Most unpleasant.

 

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by editor
Most unpleasant.

Perhaps the climate would be more pleasant if no moderator was allowed to bully posters?

What's more, shouting IN MULTIPLE SENTENCES OF BOLD CAPs isn't likely to help.

 

[editor]

Originally posted by IntoStella
What's more, shouting IN MULTIPLE SENTENCES OF BOLD CAPs isn't likely to help.

If that's the only way to stop you viciously misquoting me and posting up blatant lies, I will continue to do so.

Your claims that I "fiercely reject the idea of a working class grassroots organisation" and think that "the vast majority of my neighbours would too" are both offensive lies.

I have said nothing of the sort, so why do you keep trying to misrepresent me?