Independent Working Class Association in Brixton?

[past caring]

Mike, I wouldn't presume to tell you how to think about yourself, or how to identify yourself. But I think I've explained why I believe that the effective removal of class from political discourse has had entirely negative results on what is now seen as "politics".

And I can see how some people might be put off by the mention of class or the working class-but "intimidated"? Why?

{confusion over who said what removed}

 

[pooka]

Into said:

It is allowed to continue in Somerleyton because the neighbours are council tenants (well, HA now, to be precise). They are predominantly working class and they are ignored.

You made the same point on another thread, and I suggested you challenge the police directly over it - have you? Has the Moorlands Residents Association? (the chair of which now publicly sings the praises of the police's work in the area).

If you think people in middleclass areas get special treatment, then go and talk to the "gentry" of Josephine Avenue about their probelms with prostitution and crack.

If you wonder why Herne Hill might get a better policing response (and remember the people on Herne Hill have plenty of winges too), it's because they're organised and vocal. Not as an Independent MiddleClass Association, but as Herne Hill Forum, Friends of Brockwell Park, The Veldrome Campaign and so on, all of which have, would you believe, working class members!

past caring:

"But to the point-I don't know that this discussion can really be separated from the "Brixton Political Argument" one. I'm not saying it's a conscious conspiracy (though the Panthers took the view that it was in the States-drugs being deliberately introduced to undercut black militancy)-but at present the affect is the same. There is a tie in between the muggings and burglaries committed in order to feed crack habits, communities being too intimidated to confront violent dealers and a wider demoralisation that leads many to think they can't resist gentrification or work together to protect what's best about their communities."

As I've said before, I'm all for anything that get's people off their arses to do something about local issues and I'm not too concerned about people's motives, issue by issue - people can do the right thing for the wrong reasons.

But this quote pretty well illustrates why I wouldn't be queuing up to join the IWCA, although I'd be quite happy to work alongside them if the issue merits it. It says "start from a political analysis, then find somewhere to promolgate it" and the not so subtle "I'm not saying it's a conscious conspiracy but...............", is a classic.

Here's an interesting example around what constitutes political and to what extent issues can be delineated on class grounds: Stockwell Skatepark.

If the stock transfer of the Stockwell Estate goes ahead, it mat well include the Skatepark. The Estate will be owned and managed by a Trust, the board of which is made up of residents, in partnership with a Registered Social Landlord. Their model for development is new build to finance refurbishment of the older properties. The skateboard park, on the corner with extensive street frontage, will clearly be a prime asset. In class terms, which side would the IWCA be? (If you think that Moorlands must be "working class" cos it's an estate, then I suggest you take a walk around Stockwell Estate sometime).

 

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by pooka
If you think people in middleclass areas get special treatment, then go and talk to the "gentry" of Josephine Avenue about their probelms with prostitution and crack.

So, presumably the good people of Josephine Ave HAVE complained loud and long to the police via the CPCG. And they are still suffering. Doesn't that reflect rather badly on the police/CPCG?

If you wonder why Herne Hill might get a better policing response, it's because they're organised and vocal. Not as an Independent MiddleClass Association, but as Herne Hill Forum, Friends of Brockwell Park, The Veldrome Campaign and so on, all of which have, would you believe, working class members!

I expect the IMCA in everything but name DOES have working class members, but then the US Republican party has black members. It doesn't mean for a minute that the interests of working class people are represented. Rather, as Sean says, they are airbrushed out.

In class terms, which side would the IWCA be?

Errr... haven't you answered your own question there?

(If you think that Moorlands must be "working class" cos it's an estate, then I suggest you take a walk around Stockwell Estate sometime).

Are you suggesting that to be working class necessarily means to live in crime-ridden, squalid conditions? If so, you are making some very, er, controversial assumptions. I suggest you make a proper visit to Moorlands if you honestly (surely, surely not) believe it is some nice, middle class enclave just because regeneration has largely succeeded there. Bloody hell! More airbrushing: give working class people social housing that is fit to live in and it means they're not working class any more?!

 

[hatboy]

Into said:

"Somerleyton Road at night is full of dealers selling not just a bit of dope, as they did in CHL, but crack and heroin."

If you think Coldharbour Lane has only been about cannabis (or worthless substitutes for cannabis) for the last few years you are mistaken.

Past said:

"It says something about how succesful the "air-brushing out" of the working class has been that, even many of those involved in opposing the gentrification of Brixton and its consequences, even those without power and wealth themselves, refuse to see the process in class terms."

No, I for one refuse to see the proces in class terms... ALONE.

Past said:

""the working class has been thorughly defeated over the previous two decades in the UK. So much so that it might even be said not to exist in political terms - it has been removed from virtually all public discourse. That not only means that the working class is ignored at a policy level, but also that it has lost its sense of itself - it doesn’t exist consciously as a class of and for itself. Of course, there are contradictions there - recent social surveys have found as much as 70% of the UK population identifying itself as “working class”- but the point is, such self identification, existing as it does in political isolation, carries no more weight than someone identifying themselves as a vegetarian or a flat earther - at present (for them) it carries no political consequence."

Where is that 70% figure from? Not sure about that. We need something new though. Many ordinary and poorer people don't feel any affinity with either of the big political parties now. I know I don't (not that I've ever felt any affinity with the Tories, but now Labour's gone all Islington too).

 

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by hatboy
If you think Coldharbour Lane has only been about cannabis (or worthless substitutes for cannabis) for the last few years you are mistaken.

I didn't think, or say, that only dope/oxo/oregano dealing was going on in CHL. I could have made that clearer but it's tedious to make every point in unequivocal legalese. My point was that there is a full-on crack/smack industry going on down the street that the police know about but are not doing anything to stop.

To go back to Pooka's point about why haven't I complained -- if the ''No Room for Crack and Smack '' publicity campaign is anything other than a filthily cynical PR exercise, Why aren't the police dealing with it anyway?

Why do they have to wait for enough people to complain? Is it really ''No room for smack and crack but only if lots of people complain about it, otherwise we'll turn a blind eye''?

If there was a murder, would the police hold off investigating until they had received a large number of complaints from the public? And there is murder going on -- people being killed either directly by drugs or by other people over drugs.

 

[pooka]

Blimey, IntoStella, your turning all Jesuitical for a Friday night!

So, presumably the good people of Josephine Ave HAVE complained loud and long to the police via the CPCG. And they are still suffering. Doesn't that reflect rather badly on the police/CPCG

Primarily, it demonstrates that the "middle classes get the service, working classes don't" model you propose is unfounded. Does it reflect badly on the police/CPCG? It tells us that the police action frequently results in displacement of crime rather than its eradication. And the circumstances on Somerleyton Road are in some part a consequence of police actvity in the town centre.

I expect the IMCA in everything but name DOES have working class members, but then the US Republican party has black members. It doesn't mean for a minute that the interests of working class people are represented. Rather, as Sean says, they are airbrushed out.

My point is that these fora are effective because they garner support around issues, and not on a class basis.

In class terms, which side would the IWCA be? - Errr... haven't you answered your own question there?

Err, perhaps I'm being dim but no, and neither have you - perhaps you could spell it out for me?

Are you suggesting that to be working class necessarily means to live in crime-ridden, squalid conditions? If so, you are making some very, er, controversial assumptions. I suggest you make a proper visit to Moorlands if you honestly (surely, surely not) believe it is some nice, middle class enclave just because regeneration has largely succeeded there. Bloody hell! More airbrushing: give working class people social housing that is fit to live in and it means they're not working class any more?!

What???? That's just about the opposite of what I'm saying. Your posts have implied that Moorlands must be "working class" cos it's an estate. All I'm saying is then so too must Stockwell, in your terms.

 

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by pooka
Your posts have implied that Moorlands must be "working class" cos it's an estate. All I'm saying is then so too must Stockwell, in your terms.

I said I believe it to be predominantly working class, yes. Isn't that a reasonable assumption to make about an Inner London HA or council estate? How many middle and upper class people live on them? Or do you too prefer ''poor'' as a description, despite its horrid Victorian overtones?

A lot of the criticism that has been levelled at the IWCA model has been in the nature of ''But housing estates aren't working class because I happen to know one person who lives on one who isn't,'' or ''The name is offputting and class doesn't exist any more''. I'm sorry but it's ineffectual nitpicking!

Go and look at the kind of things they have actually been doing -- with masses of community support from people who look remarkably like ordinary citizens and who don't appear to have any whippets down their trousers at all! Go on -- have a look!

Residents evict ‘terror gang’ from park

Dealing with anti-social behaviour Blackbird Leys style

 

[pooka]

IntoStella:

To go back to Pooka's point about why haven't I complained -- if the ''No Room for Crack and Smack '' publicity campaign is anything other than a filthily cynical PR exercise, Why aren't the police dealing with it anyway?

My point is that it might not be a bad idea to ask them just what they are doing about it. As for "a filthy cynical PR exercise", I doubt it - but neither do I expect a publicity campaign to be a mgic wand that will sweep our streets clean. For all the reasons that have been well rehearsed on these boards (the legalisation arguement, the role of bigger players compared to the street dealers and so on), there is no magic wand.

I said I believe it to be predominantly working class, yes. Isn't that a reasonable assumption to make about an Inner London HA or council estate? How many middle and upper class people live on them? Or do you too prefer ''poor'' as a description, despite its horrid Victorian overtones?

You're diverting the arguement, developing a case around what you want to think I said rather than what I said.

Let's accept that, in your terms, the key distinguishing feature of any estate is that it's "working class". In which case so is Stockwell Estate. Then, in a future circumstance where the "working class" Trust wants to develop on the Skateboard Park (in order to fund refurbishment of the rest of the estate, for their "working class" residents) but other "working class" Brixton folk want to retain the Park for their kids to use, which side will the IWCA take? That was the question - go on, give us an answer.

My answer is that anyone who sees the Skateboard Park for the community asset that it is should work to ensure that it's future is protected and sustained, should the stock transfer go ahead. And I don't give a tinker's toss whether anyone is working class, middleclass, petit-bourgeois or even the bleedin aristocracy!

 

[Jay Emm]

Hatboy you should know by now PC is never wrong It was a Mori poll about a year ago.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,2763,778220,00.html

 

[hatboy]

"I'm not saying it's a conscious conspiracy (though the Panthers took the view that it was in the States-drugs being deliberately introduced to undercut black militancy)-but at present the affect is the same. There is a tie in between the muggings and burglaries committed in order to feed crack habits, communities being too intimidated to confront violent dealers and a wider demoralisation that leads many to think they can't resist gentrification or work together to protect what's best about their communities."

I hear you. It's difficult to prove sometimes but some people do get preference. Usually the people able to express themselves in a way the authorites understand and find easy to deal with and the people who can threaten some sort of comeback.

Into - your Somerleyton Road problem is called displacement.

Have a good weekend.

 

[Jay Emm]

IntoStella - why not speak to non U75 dwellers in Brixton you think might be interested??

 

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by pooka
For all the reasons that have been well rehearsed on these boards (the legalisation arguement, the role of bigger players compared to the street dealers and so on), there is no magic wand.

I am absolutely sick of hearing this. I see it as a paternalistic, patronising sop to the people who have to put up with the problem from day to day. ''Don't worry your dim little heads -- we'll deal with it when we've done all this other terribly important stuff (and worked out who next to fob the problem off on to)”.

Don't tell me some Mr Big is going to get away just because the Somerleyton dealing problem is dealt with. That is a pathetic, worn out excuse for doing nothing. It's American cop show bullshit. If that was the case then what was the difference with Coldharbour Lane? Why was that dealt with? For cosmetic reasons, that's why.

You're diverting the arguement

On the contrary, this is central to the argument. Are you, or are you not, saying that council estates (and those taken on by HAs) are not predominantly working class? Then what are they? ''The poor'' just will not do.

Then, in a future circumstance where the "working class" Trust wants to develop on the Skateboard Park (in order to fund refurbishment of the rest of the estate, for their "working class" residents) but other "working class" Brixton folk want to retain the Park for their kids to use, which side will the IWCA take? That was the question -- go on, give us an answer.

You suggest that the IWCA could not work effectively in a situation where two predominantly working class parties’ interests were at odds. Weasel words, my friend. You are implying that the IWCA's political operation consists of blundering into a situation and trying to muscle-in in the interests of working class people without addressing the salient issues (ergo, in your argument, it would short circuit if it had to mediate between working class groups with opposed interests). Come on, Pooka! That’s Scooby doo politics! Or have you just not bothered to look at all into what the IWCA does?

In fact, it would be far better equipped to do the bottom-up, democratic and fair consultation with all affected residents than any of the main political parties, who just don't give a toss what happens on estates.

And I don't give a tinker's toss whether anyone is working class, middleclass, petit-bourgeois or even the bleedin aristocracy!

Again, you are mixing up fairly representing the interests of an unfairly represented socio-economic group with class hatred. How many times do we have to go over this?

 

[editor]

Originally posted by IntoStella
Isn't that a reasonable assumption to make about an Inner London HA or council estate?

I think that depends on the location and how much of the original estate has been flogged off - some council estates are very nce indeed, thanks very much!

But this whole tedious argument about 'what is working class' just reinforces my original comments about the vagaries of the term. And to a lot of people this interminable debate about working class-ness isn't what motivates or interests them: they want solutions to local problems not a flashback to 1970s class politics! (for that is how it may be perceived)

I wonder how many of the young kids on the estate think of themselves as 'working class'?

 

[editor]

Originally posted by past caring
And I can see how some people might be put off by the mention of class or the working class-but "intimidated"? Why?

If you were a middle class type moving into an ICWA area, wouldn't you find their slogan, "Working Class Rule in Working Class Areas!" a little intimidating?

It could possibly be seen as a rallying call to boot out all the non-working class people in the area...

 

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by editor
I wonder how many of the young kids on the estate think of themselves as 'working class'?

Since when have young kids ever been class-conscious?

Mike -- please actually check out the evidence via the links posted earlier on the community work the IWCA is actually doing. Do you see marauding gangs of crowbar-wielding, Phil Mitchell-type thugs in DM cherry reds booting terrified middle class people out of their burning homes?

More to the point, do you see the people in those communities fleeing in terror from the IWCA in case said bootboys suddenly materialise? No, ya don't. Because they are gladly working together with the IWCA to solve local social problems that politicans and the police have completely failed to solve.

 

[editor]

Originally posted by IntoStella
Since when have young kids ever been class-conscious?

They were when I was growing up in Wales - well-to-do oiks unfortunate enough to go to comprehensive schools were regularly picked on, and it was the same at the football too.

And when I played gigs up the Valleys, I'd be accused of being 'posh' (or even worse - English!) by some of the more 'down to earth' types there.

 

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by editor
I'd be accused of being 'posh' (or even worse - English!)

ROFL , Yes, that does happen. I was called posh -- and beaten for it -- even though my stepdad was a farmhand earning 33 quid a week. Before that job, with a tied cottage, we actually lived in a converted shed with rats running around in the roof.

But there is no logical connection whatsoever between young kids (of all walks of life) sometimes being little shits and the work of the IWCA. Kids generally hate EVERYONE who isn't like them. But as they get older, hopefully, they become civilised, and tolerance is a key aspect of civilisation.

 

[editor]

Originally posted by IntoStella
But there is no logical connection whatsoever between young kids (of all walks of life) sometimes being little shits and the work of the IWCA.

You've missed my point. If the ICWA is to truly represent the local community then it has to appear attractive and inclusive to all ages.

I'm of the opinion that slogans like, "Working Class Rule in Working Class Areas!" are likely to alienate some people in that community and, frankly, no matter how much you insist to the contrary, that is my opinion and one that I feel is accurate to the best of my knowledge.

And as a resident of this estate for over 11 years, I think I might have some vague idea about how some of the community might react to such sloganeering.

 

[IntoStella]

These results may be interesting to anyone who thinks the IWCA is some hopeless pissing-in-the wind exercise:

Bunhill ward - Islington Borough Council by-election, 23 January 2003

Lib Dem (elected) 797 &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp 44.9%
Lab 412 &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp 23.2%

IWCA 398 &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp 22.4%

Con 111 &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp6.2%
Green 57 &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp3.2%

After a year or two establishing itself in Brixton, I wonder how well they would do in council elections? I'd be pretty worried if I was a main party councillor. Yes, the numbers polled in the by election are tiny but turnouts are falling and falling as people become more and more disillusioned with the existing political process. Don't forget the last general election saw the lowest turnout since before women got the vote!

 

[pooka]

Into:

I am absolutely sick of hearing this. I see it as a paternalistic, patronising sop to the people who have to put up with the problem from day to day. ''Don't worry your dim little heads -- we'll deal with it when we've done all this other terribly important stuff (and worked out who next to fob the problem off on to)”.

Eh? Again, that's not what I said. I'm saying that the "Crack Out" campaign is unlikely to rid the streets of dealers of itself. I'm also saying that police activity with street dealers of itself won't either, for all the reasons given, and will result in displacement as much, or more so, than erradication. But that is not a reason for not doing either - as well as working higher up the supply chain.

But main point is that if you don't tackle the police directly, or encourage the Moorlands residents to do so (and find out why their Residents Association chair is falling over in her praise for the local police) then you can't speak authoritatively about what they are or aren't doing down Somerleyton Road. You suggest that they are more diligent around Herne Hill - can you evidence this? I'd lay good money that there is much more police resource devoted to Angel and Coldharbour than to Herne Hill, but you may be able to prove me wrong.

I think the line you're taking on this illustrates what I find least attractive about the IWCA proposal - you start from a class analysis and then interpret the evidence to fit. It's an approach which may induce warm feeling amongst the intiates, but not one (IMO) that would attract wider support.

Why was Coldharbour Lane dealt with? Because virtually the entirety of Lambeth (including many on these Boards), and beyond, was screaming about it, that's why.

On the contrary, this is central to the argument. Are you, or are you not, saying that council estates (and those taken on by HAs) are not predominantly working class? Then what are they? ''The poor'' just will not do.

Read what I wrote. For the sake of arguement, I accepted your categorisation of "estates = working class". My pont was that the issue of the Skateboard Park, an important one for people living in Brixton, is not a class one. Your response that nontheless its only people who self-identify as working class (even by the heavily caveated definition of IWCA), who are best placed to resolve this, doesn't convince me.

I don't think any of the people engaged with this issue currently would identify in those terms (the prime mover amongst the skaters is an architect, for example - read their website, can you find evidence of class conciousness there?), they've had help and support from ward councillors (cf "than any of the main political parties, who just don't give a toss what happens on estates. "), council officers, local people and the Brixton Forum - and I've heard no-one cast this as a class issue. I certainly think some of those people would have backed off if the whole thing was couched in the terms of "class struggle" or whatever you want to call it.

not a flashback to 1970s class politics!

Absolutely! Ever since sitting as a (working class) student in SU meetiings, listening to lectures in well-modulated, Home Counties accents, asserting the need for "solidarity with the working claaases", I've been deeply suspicious of this stuff. Many of its leading lights went on to screw up the Labour party for a generation, and gave us 18 years of Thatcherism. Fat lot of good that did for the working claaaases.

But, at the end of the day, if there are significant numbers of people who are more likely to be motivated to be active in their communities by a class banner, rather than the simple wish to improve their own and their neighbours lot (regardless of class) and if their efforts lead to greater not less cohesion, then let them go for it. By their fruits shall you know them

 

[editor]

Originally posted by IntoStella
These results may be interesting to anyone who thinks the IWCA is some hopeless pissing-in-the wind exercise:

Has anyone actually suggested that?

I certainly haven't: I support and applaud what they're doing and my criticisms are intended to be nothing but positive.

 

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by editor
You've missed my point. If the ICWA is to truly represent the local community then it has to appear attractive and inclusive to all ages.

I can't help thinking it would be more pertinent to win the hearts and minds of the parents than the young kids.

And as a resident of this estate for over 11 years, I think I might have some vague idea about how some of the community might react to such sloganeering.

As I said before, look at those pictures/reports via the links of ordinary estate residents ''reacting badly'' to those ''sloganeering'' IWCA people. Not.*

You might have lived where you are for 11 years -- and I appreciate how bad things were before they sorted out the security -- but you have very set ideas about the way things are (ie that if you hate the idea of a working class then so must every other sensible person), and if a group like the IWCA started doing work in your local community, you might well be surprised at the disparity between the reality and your predictions -- on the evidence of IWCA work elsewhere.

Out of interest, how many people (apart from the obvious household) do you actually know on the ground? Because it seems to me that nobody really sees the block and the estate as any kind of cohesive unit.

*Or maybe Oxford has an unusually high propensity of class-hate-commie-whippet-lovers. Somehow I doubt it, though.

Right, time to stop procrastinating in this nice, warm office and face the fact that my abode presently has no electricity. At all. (Or gas). First stop -- the Albert for a few pints of ''central heating". )

 

[editor]

Originally posted by IntoStella
but you have very set ideas about the way things are (ie that if you hate the idea of a working class then so must every other sensible person),

FFS: I'm going to leave you to this because I truly can't be arsed with this mischievous misquoting.

For the record (and I'm putting it in capitals in the hope that the message will be received loud and clear): I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT I "HATE THE IDEA OF A WORKING CLASS, NEITHER HAVE I SUGGESTED THAT ALL "SENSIBLE" PEOPLE WOULD THINK THE SAME " . Not once. Not ever. Not even hinted at it because it's NOT what I think. You made that up.

I do not have 'set ideas' on this matter. I have simply said that I now find the definition of 'working class' vague and confusing, and fear that some members of the community may be put off by it.

That's it. Not a speck of hatred in sight, just my attempt to offer some constructive criticism to a cause I support.

Let's hope that if the ICWA do come to Brixton, they deal with such honestly-dealt criticism a little less belligerently than you...

 

[IntoStella]

Originally posted by editor
they want solutions to local problems not a flashback to 1970s class politics!

And the former is what, by all the evidence, the IWCA is delivering.

Originally posted by pooka
Again, that's not what I said.

It isn't? It looked a lot like the old ''There's no magic wand''... ''we're after the bigger fish'' old chestnut that the residents on the wrong end of all this get fobbed off with every single time.

But main point is that if you don't tackle the police directly, or encourage the Moorlands residents to do so (and find out why their Residents Association chair is falling over in her praise for the local police)

Yes, well, she also thinks she's a Mossad agent, a psychiatrist, a lawyer, a journalist and a millionaire . That is for the Tenants' Association to deal with.

You suggest that they are more diligent around Herne Hill -- can you evidence this?

That is your area of expertise, pooka. I'm sure you already know the answers.

Why was Coldharbour Lane dealt with? Because virtually the entirety of Lambeth (including many on these Boards), and beyond, was screaming about it, that's why.

My point was that the ‘no room..’ campaign looks very cynical when the police know perfectly well what is going on. No, pooka, people should not have to scream and scream about this. The police should be dealing with it, as they claim to be doing, otherwise they are lying.

Cleaning up CHL was a PR exercise because Lambeth wanted people to continue to travel there at weekends for the nightlife and spend lots of cash.

For the sake of arguement, I accepted your categorisation of "estates = working class".

I asked you a straight question about what YOU think, which you have wriggled out of. Care to answer it?

(the prime mover amongst the skaters is an architect

That doesn’t surprise me at all.

I certainly think some of those people would have backed off if the whole thing was couched in the terms of "class struggle" or whatever you want to call it.

Oh for god's sake. Why don't you just read the sodding evidence and tell me where IWCA talks about class struggle?

Tell you what, let's just keep the status quo that serves you so well and leave it to the usual crew of paternalistic liberals to take care of everyone. After all, they always know best, don’t they?

By their fruits shall you know them

Exactly. So go and look at the work the IWCA has actually done and what it has achieved instead of cooking up all this negative weaselly stuff.

 

[hatboy]

IntoStella - I feel that, sadly, you are pushing yourself into a self-made corner where the only people who'll you'll relate to will be those who loudly declare their working class credentials (whether merited or not) and insist that anything and everything is class, class, class....

If you want a diversity of people to tune into your passions and beliefs I reckon you should lighten up and start accepting that lots of people who don't fit your increasingly narrow idea of worthyness have a part to play in Brixton too.

And no, you, AK, Justin, Gramsci and Bob cannot take over this board with the constant politicking. That isn't going to happen. You'd be making it less attractive to lots of people who already think u75 is just afew Albert bores.

Sorry, that really wasn't meant to sound horrible or personal. But people are saying to me this board is suffering because of this stuff.

Buzzsw9 - very balanced, thanks.

PS I do not have a politics phobia. I have a political bores phobia.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

1. Pooka - just because the Josephine Avenue Group reckon they're being neglected don't make it so. They may protest too much (e.g. about people who don't priune the trees in front of their houses). Nice art exhibition they held the other day though.

2. Blackbird Leys - as a former resident of that estate I'm a little iffy about the campaign there. I've said why on the relevant thread.

3. The IWCA - as I've said, I'm more positive about them than negative. But I do think they're short on politics, and perhaps even hostile to it (e.g. silly remarks about the "student left" on their site). There's something about them that bothers me without my necessarily being able to put my finger on it. But PC might reckon he could put that right over a pint, and I'm game if he is.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Originally posted by hatboy
And no, you, AK, Justin, Gramsci and Bob cannot take over this board with the constant politicking. That isn't going to happen. You'd be making it less attractive to lots of people who already think u75 is just a few Albert bores.

Oh, give it a rest. Nobody is "taking over" anything. It's possible some people don't like talk about politics. It's possible other people are bored by the Merrett stuff. It's possible I'm bored by lots of threads on this forum and others. When that happens, I go and read other ones. Anybody else might take the same advice.

 

[hatboy]

 

[Donna Ferentes]

"I wonder if I might have a translation?"

 

[IntoStella]

Buzz said

I would argue that to fight to keep the school open isn’t and needn’t be a political campaign, the parents would normally be from many and varied backgrounds and classes with many political views, so you have a common goal “keeping the school open and getting your children a good education”.

Firstly, thanks for your considered replies. OK, in what way is your example political? I will tell you. When parents, no matter what the mix of backgrounds, lobby a local authority over a school closure, what is the only bargaining chip they have? It is this: ''If you close this school, at the next elections we will vote you out of office.'' And that is as political as politics gets. It's what the whole thing is about.

No, I am not talking about parliamentary party politics. I never said I was. Politics done at local authority level is a different animal. Otherwise, party political representation in local authorities nationwide would be the same as in central government, and it is patently not. And that is the power of local politics.

Originally posted by hatboy
And no, you, AK, Justin, Gramsci and Bob cannot take over this board with the constant politicking. That isn't going to happen.

Stop moving the sodding goalposts, hatboy. We started a new thread, as you asked, so quit bullying and interfering.

Stop trying to drive ALL mention of politics off the boards.

All this business about people being put off is the opposite of the truth, which is that discussions such as the secondary school and Rushcroft Road have brought loads of new local people to the boards and got them invovled in the debates. If you don't like it, don't bloody read it, but don't selfishly fuck it up for everyone else.

When I first started posting in this forum, about 18 months ago, it was dead most of the time. There would be maybe one or two posts a day. Now it is absolutley buzzing. If you think that isn't to a large extent to do with local politics then you are just not facing the truth.

And stop trying (unsuccessfully) to intimidate Justin by ''showing him the door''. Ho de ho.

You'd be making it less attractive to lots of people who already think u75 is just afew Albert bores.

What? Is he visiting from Birmingham? Is there more than one of him??

Oh, sorry. political joke.