Independent Leader: "Another Weekend, Another Festival"

[free spirit]

garf - those 2 quotes were in your first post. the bit about investors didn't start until your next post, which made no reference to your first post, and was a direct response to JTG's quoted post (which in turn was a response to my first post). You then make no further reference to your first post at any point through this thread until now, when you decide to let us know that you were actually only referring to the really big festivals all along.

feel free to continue to STATE YOUR FUCKING OPINION, just be aware that your opinion on this subject is about as informed an opinion as mine would be on the subject of the prevalence of different knitting patterns in the mid 50's central USA. Also be aware that when you say a festival deserves to go belly up, this scenario would have severe consequences for the festivals crew, contractors, and artists as well as the investors for the reasons outlined in this thread, so you might want to be slightly more tactful... which in essence was my original point in a nutshell.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

nope you're still being a persistant arse... learn to read learn about context then do try and keep up with the adults when they talk.

 

[free spirit]

nope you're still being a persistant arse... learn to read learn about context then do try and keep up with the adults when they talk.

yes garf, it's clearly my understanding of context that's been the problem here.

btw did you ever find any evidence to back up your assertion about investors in festivals (later changed to venture capitalists) being insured against loss? if so, would you care to post it, if not would you care to retract your statement like you should have done long ago?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

erm i haven't looked for any evidence why would i?

are you actually saying that mean fiddler aren't insured against lost how about harvey goldsmith he got no insurance for loss either?

think about it for a second...

oh wait i'm asking you to do something clearly your basic education in moron didn't actually teach you...

you cannot seem to get your head around the simplest of premises and are insisting on chatting shit in order to continue some personal attack on a poster for stating their opinion.

have you yet read and understood what has been said to you. no have you bothered to comprehend at any point the words of the english language structured into what we call sentences which would illuminate the subject by sequnetially informing the reader as to the thoughts of the writer....

are you capable of that.

no.

obviously not.

tell you what i'll post some links to venture capital insurance schemes once you get your english gcse as frankly there's little point in posting complex links for a simpleton to read if their basic comprehension isn't there.

so as soon as i see a scaned copy of your english gsce at grade c or above posted up then i'll provide the 'proof' you petualantly are demanding....

alternatively again you could read what's been written stop acting like some one trod on your dick and fuck you mum and realise that actually you've been in the wrong since you misinterpreted what i said and have been wandering further and further off on that tangent ever since.

why do you find it so hard to accept that the person who made the comments is able to discern whether you in terpreted them in the correct manner or not? do you know my mind and thoughts better than i do. hardly....

stop being such a fucking dick face it you misinterpreted something which has been said and have run it all over the field with your flights of fancy grow up eh...

 

[nosos]

and you called him persistent

 

[free spirit]

and you called him persistent

quite amusing isn't it...


garf untwist your knickers, and next time you choose to respond to a post by essentially challenging a posters knowledge of an issue (ie. "you are not a major investor in terms of large finance") maybe make sure you actually do know more about the subject than the person you're challenging.

 

[paolo]

I've never heard of any festival (or any other business, for that matter) being insured against being unpopular.

 

[free spirit]

btw I got grade A at gcse english language and literature, in the days before A* existed. I think I may even have my certificates around somewhere...

 

[free spirit]

I've never heard of any festival (or any other business, for that matter) being insured against being unpopular.

ah, but do you have grade c or above gcse english, and the certificates to prove it?

garf has high standards about who he'll debate with these days

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

quite amusing isn't it...


garf untwist your knickers, and next time you choose to respond to a post by essentially challenging a posters knowledge of an issue (ie. "you are not a major investor in terms of large finance") maybe make sure you actually do know more about the subject than the person you're challenging.

i'm not fucking challenging oyu you mental egotist nutcase.

I'm saying big corpeate sponsors of events liek ths along with other major investors of which you aren't one as a worker have ruin festivals liek this and wil have taken out indeminty insurance to ensure they get their money back by hook or by crook you and now it seems you gaggle of moronic anarkds seem to be thinking that because you invest your time energy or own money that you are in some way the same grou but your clearly fucking not for obvious reasons.

your misinterpretation you fucking dick nothing else.

fuck this shit argueing with you is like speaking flemish to a pole...

 

[free spirit]

I'm saying big corpeate sponsors of events liek ths along with other major investors of which you aren't one as a worker have ruin festivals liek this and wil have taken out indeminty insurance to ensure they get their money back by hook or by crook

so you'd therefore have no problem providing some kind of evidence that this is the case then?

or maybe accepting that you've no way of knowing either way if they do or don't?

btw how big is big in your criteria? bestival, big chill, glade big enough? or just glasto, isle of white, t in the park, reading, leeds, v?

and how come we're now talking about sponsors?

 

[Firky]

what a load of fuckin shite.

 

[free spirit]

Another one goes down today: Redfest in Surrey

http://www.redfest.co.uk/lineup.html

Must say I'm not surprised at £64 for a bill of that nature.

Two years ago, festies like that were £30-ish.

I know agents are asking a lot more for bands over the past couple of years as live and festival work helps take up the slack for poor record sales but i guess other costs go up too as with there being so many festies, rigging companies and whatever can charge a higher market rate.

anyway, back to the programme...

another festie hits the one month barrier and cancels. Looks like they're actually now planning to still do a smaller scale thing on the same site same dates with a local line up for £25 a ticket, which seems much more reasonable... probably a case of trying to run before they can walk IMO.

there is actually also getting to be a major shortage of equipment on certain dates, notably fencing and temporary trackway due to the huge increase in the number and scale of festivals over the last few years, as well as stuff like licensing authorities demanding higher levels of sia security cover and first aid cover for newer festivals, not letting them use volunteer stewards to reduce sia costs etc.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

so you'd therefore have no problem providing some kind of evidence that this is the case then?

or maybe accepting that you've no way of knowing either way if they do or don't?

btw how big is big in your criteria? bestival, big chill, glade big enough? or just glasto, isle of white, t in the park, reading, leeds, v?

and how come we're now talking about sponsors?

i have always been talking baout sponsors what the hell did you think i meant with major investors you moron... fuck me you are dense ... no wonder there's an entire generation of people who really could have been involved in creating somehing revolutionary who have been turned of consistantly by twats like you who are incapable of seeing the main point and postition in an argument because of petty moronic egotistical bullshit where you fisate on one insignificant comment rather than the entire thing in context you are a fucking arse ...

 

[free spirit]

i have always been talking baout sponsors what the hell did you think i meant with major investors you moron... fuck me you are dense ... no wonder there's an entire generation of people who really could have been involved in creating somehing revolutionary who have been turned of consistantly by twats like you who are incapable of seeing the main point and postition in an argument because of petty moronic egotistical bullshit where you fisate on one insignificant comment rather than the entire thing in context you are a fucking arse ...

ok well there's part of the issue then...

a sponsor is entirely different to an investor.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

ok well there's part of the issue then...

a sponsor is entirely different to an investor.

finally you admit you've misinterpreted what i have said jesus fucking christ on a boat...

 

[free spirit]

really do you think that any of the above would in any way see any of their cash back or wages or the like if a festival went belly up? do you think the investors would? who'd be paid out of the insurance schemes which set aside cash in the event of the event failing would it be your peoples or the investors...

you are not a major investor in terms of large finance.

you point is agreeing with mine entirely. clam down the hyperbole and reread what i said.

exactly invstors will get their cash back via insurance. workers will get stiffed. As is the same in any other part of capitalism really...

pretty sure you'd find venture capital of any kind has insureance against loss. otherwise they'd never give the cash out in the first place.

again i reffer you to the point about venture capital... jesus it's like pushing a pig up a hill to the bacon factory where it know's it'll die....

right so venture capitalists which you seem to equate with beign the same as you personaly investing have no insurance in the world of free spirt ok.... fine... someone tell the city that freesprit has changed all the banking laws today will they...

you do know what venture capital is right?

and how you clearly aren't aware of how things work in this area...

i'm not fucking challenging oyu you mental egotist nutcase.

I'm saying big corpeate sponsors of events liek ths along with other major investors of which you aren't one as a worker have ruin festivals liek this and wil have taken out indeminty insurance to ensure they get their money back by hook or by crook you and now it seems you gaggle of moronic anarkds seem to be thinking that because you invest your time energy or own money that you are in some way the same grou but your clearly fucking not for obvious reasons.

your misinterpretation you fucking dick nothing else.

fuck this shit argueing with you is like speaking flemish to a pole...

ok, an investor is different to a sponsor, so how the fuck am I meant to know that you mean a sponsor when you write an investor / venture capitalist?

also your previous posts still don't work if you write sponsor in them in place of investor. A sponsor is not insured against the festival losing money, a sponsor can simply reclaim their sponsorship money if the event organisers don't live up to their end of the sponsorship agreement. they have no special protection if the event goes belly up, they'd simply join the queue of creditors to get paid from whatever was left once the adminstrators had claimed their fee.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

jesus i'm so not continuing arguing with a fucking idiot.

 

[free spirit]

I'll accept I may have been slightly idiotic for attempting an arguement with you and expecting anything approaching a coherant arguement back...

 

[Giles]

i have always been talking baout sponsors what the hell did you think i meant with major investors you moron... fuck me you are dense ... no wonder there's an entire generation of people who really could have been involved in creating somehing revolutionary who have been turned of consistantly by twats like you who are incapable of seeing the main point and postition in an argument because of petty moronic egotistical bullshit where you fisate on one insignificant comment rather than the entire thing in context you are a fucking arse ...

Is it ever likely that you can discuss and even disagree with someone without a constant stream of four-letter abuse?

There is no need for it, and I'll bet you wouldn't be like that face to face.

If you disagree with someone, say why.

No need for all the "twats like you" "you are a fcuking arse" "moron" etc etc.

Giles..

 

[free spirit]

Is it ever likely that you can discuss and even disagree with someone without a constant stream of four-letter abuse?

There is no need for it, and I'll bet you wouldn't be like that face to face.

If you disagree with someone, say why.

No need for all the "twats like you" "you are a fcuking arse" "moron" etc etc.

Giles..

I believe garf long ago forgot why he was disagreeing with me, and just figured if he wriggled enough, and called me enough names I'd bugger off and leave him to claim victory or something.

me, I was just trying to nail down the point that festivals are not insured against loss as garf was stating. They may well be insured against loss due to events beyond their control such as bad weather, floods, or transport problems such as tube / rail / air port strikes, but not against simply not selling enough tickets to cover their costs. In this eventuality either the investors, or the multiple contractors or more usually both lose money, or the event get's cancelled last minute leaving the contractors with a hole in their summer bookings, and the investors out of pocket for all the money they've laid out uptil the point of cancellation.

 

[Dan U]

workers would as i said be stiffed investors would get themselves covered under the insurance they'd have for any venture capital project.

this is nonsense.

i've worked with Private Equity firms (as they now like to be called!). they invest money at risk. it's why the rewards are so high. as Free Spirit said they spread that risk.

you don't invest £10m say in a business and take out a 'we fucked it all up' insurance policy.

eta - the quote in post 29 covers it all.

 

[free spirit]

this is nonsense.

i've worked with Private Equity firms (as they now like to be called!). they invest money at risk. it's why the rewards are so high. as Free Spirit said they spread that risk.

you don't invest £10m say in a business and take out a 'we fucked it all up' insurance policy.

eta - the quote in post 29 covers it all.

thank's, for a minute there I was starting to think that maybe I'd missed something fairly fundamental... I'm sure I'd have no problem finding people to finance my own personal festival project if I could just insure them all so they'd all get their money back regardless of whether the festival made money or not.

As I've actually read the documents from all the main events insurers on their insurance offered to festivals, which usually included different rates / levels of cover for all sizes of festivals, I was pretty sure this at least wasn't a standard package, and would therefore be prohibitively expensive if it did exist... the obvious question an insurer would ask being why should we be insuring this investor against loss, what's he worried about... sound the alarm bells, ramp up the premiums.

 

[Dan U]

it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how companies and investment works.

if they could all insure against risk no company or investment fund would ever lose money or go bust.

it's like all the current turmoil in the financial markets didn't happen

 

[free spirit]

pretty much what I was thinking too.

Funny that it's apparently my fault that a generation of potential activists have been turned off from something revolutionary... personally I like to base my anti-neoliberal globalisation / pro environment stance on a pretty firm understanding of all the relevant concepts. garf appears to base his revolutionary thinking on what he's read on the back of some pg tips cards at some point / overheard some stoner discussing at a party while everyone else is making their excuses / pretending to have passed out.

ah well, at least i got a new tagline out of it

 

[paolo]

anyway, back to the programme...

another festie hits the one month barrier and cancels. Looks like they're actually now planning to still do a smaller scale thing on the same site same dates with a local line up for £25 a ticket, which seems much more reasonable... probably a case of trying to run before they can walk IMO.

there is actually also getting to be a major shortage of equipment on certain dates, notably fencing and temporary trackway due to the huge increase in the number and scale of festivals over the last few years, as well as stuff like licensing authorities demanding higher levels of sia security cover and first aid cover for newer festivals, not letting them use volunteer stewards to reduce sia costs etc.

Gonna be a difficult year for quite a few I think.

 

[free spirit]

Gonna be a difficult year for quite a few I think.

yup, I get that feeling too.

 

[BigTom]

I'm told that last year there were 80 licences granted for festivals that never happened. I suspect there will be more this year.. I only know of one small festival that is on line for selling out (shambala), and we've had our budgets cut or turned down jobs for lack of money this year more than last year.
I suspect that next year will see a much smaller number of festivals than this year..
and fs, I've jsut read through the whole thread - I can see that garf was agreeing with you in the first bit, about investors not losing money as easily as workers - but just what he is going on about investors having insurance against loss? crazy.. I've never heard of a festival insured against poor ticket sales - weather, yes, but poor ticket sales? no way.

 

[twistedAM]

I'm told that last year there were 80 licences granted for festivals that never happened. I suspect there will be more this year.. I only know of one small festival that is on line for selling out (shambala), and we've had our budgets cut or turned down jobs for lack of money this year more than last year.

Truck (5000 capacity) has sold out. The past couple of years they did a Glasto in that they sold out more or less when announced but still managed to shift them all over a month before the festival. Think this is a rarity though.

 

[Firky]

garf has problems with everything it seems