Independence is viable?

[Brockway]

What does "nation building" mean?

I for one do not wish to be included into any imaginary community.

Just out of interest Nep, generally what is your definition of a "worker" in this day and age? Would a call-centre person qualify for example? Or a farmer?

 

[lewislewis]

What does "nation building" mean?

I for one do not wish to be included into any imaginary community.

Nation building, to literally build the Welsh nation, give the people that inhabit it a firm national consciousness and identity, create new institutions for Wales and raise Wales' profile.

Nep, if you venture out into our communities you'll find that Wales is not an 'imaginary community' as the majority of people identify with it.

 

[neprimerimye]

Just out of interest Nep, generally what is your definition of a "worker" in this day and age? Would a call-centre person qualify for example? Or a farmer?

For what it may be worth I have no abstract definition of who is or is not a worker in the way you pose the question. My understanding of social class is that of Marx.

In which case it is obvious that those who work in call centres are workers and farmers are not. Farmers owning their means of production and often being employers of labour are capitalists not workers. Call centre workers being paid wages and having no control over their means of production, workers of course produce values not things, are thus proletarians every bit as much as any miner was.

 

[neprimerimye]

Nation building, to literally build the Welsh nation, give the people that inhabit it a firm national consciousness and identity, create new institutions for Wales and raise Wales' profile.

Nep, if you venture out into our communities you'll find that Wales is not an 'imaginary community' as the majority of people identify with it.

So you want to win control of the Assembly and then convince us that we are Welsh? That is you want to use a public body and public monies to convince us that your political ideals are correct.

I live in "our communities" and have done all my live you twerp. Not that I've ever managed to locate any "communties" only dormitaries in which labour is conveniantly warehoused for the conveniance of the boss class.

One final point I find it amusing that you have to write that the majority of people "identify" with Wales as proof that Wales as a nation is not an imagined community. Are you unaware that this perceived identification is a form of consciousness? Thus by definition of the imagination. And in this particular case a false consciousness.

 

[Redstar]

For what it may be worth I have no abstract definition of who is or is not a worker in the way you pose the question. My understanding of social class is that of Marx.

In which case it is obvious that those who work in call centres are workers and farmers are not. Farmers owning their means of production and often being employers of labour are capitalists not workers. Call centre workers being paid wages and having no control over their means of production, workers of course produce values not things, are thus proletarians every bit as much as any miner was.

Is this the same Marx who said "I am not a Marxist."? If Marx's ideas didnt work very well for 20th century Russia, they're certainly not going to work very well for 21st centruy Cymru.

 

[Redstar]

So you want to win control of the Assembly and then convince us that we are Welsh? That is you want to use a public body and public monies to convince us that your political ideals are correct.

I live in "our communities" and have done all my live you twerp. Not that I've ever managed to locate any "communties" only dormitaries in which labour is conveniantly warehoused for the conveniance of the boss class.

One final point I find it amusing that you have to write that the majority of people "identify" with Wales as proof that Wales as a nation is not an imagined community. Are you unaware that this perceived identification is a form of consciousness? Thus by definition of the imagination. And in this particular case a false consciousness.

What planet are you on? The majority of people in the defined borders of this country identify themselves as WELSH and have for well over 1000 years (the difference being that we now identify ourselves largely in a language that has been imposed on us by a foreign power - England - the original term being Cymry or "fellow countrymen") whatever you are talking about is irrelevant to the way the majority of people in this country see themselves.

If national identity is a form of "false consciousness" then all I can say it's spreading across the globe faster than Asian Bird Flu. Since the end of the 2nd world war the number of nations in existence has grown vastly, and the trend continues year on year. People value their collective identity and will fight for it if necessary, and I think you'll find that national identities will far outlive the deluded rhetoric of terms like the "international proletariat".

 

[neprimerimye]

Is this the same Marx who said "I am not a Marxist."? If Marx's ideas didnt work very well for 20th century Russia, they're certainly not going to work very well for 21st centruy Cymru.

The ideas of Marx explain very well indeed what happened in Russia and why. Marxists understanding that we live in a global economy argued against the idiotic theory of 'Socialism in One Country' put forward by counter-revolutionaries. By the same token Marxists today understand that there can be no socialism in Wales alone. For that matter capitalism in a Wales isolated from the world economy is an absurdity.

 

[neprimerimye]

What planet are you on? The majority of people in the defined borders of this country identify themselves as WELSH and have for well over 1000 years (the difference being that we now identify ourselves largely in a language that has been imposed on us by a foreign power - England - the original term being Cymry or "fellow countrymen") whatever you are talking about is irrelevant to the way the majority of people in this country see themselves.

If national identity is a form of "false consciousness" then all I can say it's spreading across the globe faster than Asian Bird Flu. Since the end of the 2nd world war the number of nations in existence has grown vastly, and the trend continues year on year. People value their collective identity and will fight for it if necessary, and I think you'll find that national identities will far outlive the deluded rhetoric of terms like the "international proletariat".

Your hysterical rhetoric is unconvincing. There is no evidence that a majority of the people of Wales have understood themselves to be 'Welsh' for over a thousand years as you assert. At best the ruling elite may have had a consciouness of being a single people that long but this must be differentiated from the modern concept of nationalism which is unique to the capitalist mode of production.

Nationalism is a form of false consciousness and I note that you do not even attempt to construct an argument to the contrary. People do indeed value collective identities but this is why nationalism is but a form of imagined community as there can be no genuine shared interest between workers and bosses. As one or other class must dominate, history knows no exceptions, each nation at best a site for class conflict.

You are however correct that it is possible that nations will outlive the potential of the international proletariat creating a communist society as Rosa Luxemburg put it the choice facing humanity is socialism or barbarism. Nationalism cannot but lead to the latter.

 

[phildwyer]

When you back here btw?

I'm here now, in fact I do believe I just saw your brother in the library. Meeting up with 1927 tonight, check yer PM's for details.

 

[Redstar]

Your hysterical rhetoric is unconvincing. There is no evidence that a majority of the people of Wales have understood themselves to be 'Welsh' for over a thousand years as you assert. At best the ruling elite may have had a consciouness of being a single people that long but this must be differentiated from the modern concept of nationalism which is unique to the capitalist mode of production.

Nationalism is a form of false consciousness and I note that you do not even attempt to construct an argument to the contrary. People do indeed value collective identities but this is why nationalism is but a form of imagined community as there can be no genuine shared interest between workers and bosses. As one or other class must dominate, history knows no exceptions, each nation at best a site for class conflict.

You are however correct that it is possible that nations will outlive the potential of the international proletariat creating a communist society as Rosa Luxemburg put it the choice facing humanity is socialism or barbarism. Nationalism cannot but lead to the latter.

Well in one respect you are quite right nep. The majority of people in this country have understood themselves to be "Cymry" not "Welsh" which as I'm sure you are aware is an Anglo-Saxon word meaning "Foreigner".

As to Socialism being less barbarous than Nationalism - remind me again how many of the people's of Eastern Europe and the Caucasus Lenin, Stalin and co. murdered and slaughtered in the name of the workers revolution...

 

[neprimerimye]

Well in one respect you are quite right nep. The majority of people in this country have understood themselves to be "Cymry" not "Welsh" which as I'm sure you are aware is an Anglo-Saxon word meaning "Foreigner".

As to Socialism being less barbarous than Nationalism - remind me again how many of the people's of Eastern Europe and the Caucasus Lenin, Stalin and co. murdered and slaughtered in the name of the workers revolution...

Beyond empty assertion you have not and cannot provide any proof that a majority of people living in this country thought of themselves as being citizens of Wales/Cymru. That they did think of themselves as being "Cymry" rather than English or Irish is by no means the same thing. National consciousness is a modern invention belnging to the era of capitalism.

And again in relation to Lenin and Stalin you lack the facts to back up your empty claims. If you any ral knowledge of the question you would know that Lenins final struggle was against Russian national chauvinism in the Caucasus and against Stalin. Stalin in the Caucasus as in Russia the embodiement of Russian capitalism and thus national chauvinism.

 

[Dai Sheep]

That those Welsh workers living in England are more highly qualified, on average, than those remaining in Wales is probably true. But the conclusion that they are therefore not workers is wrong in that the Labour Force Survey, in common with other bourgeois sources, categorises many workers as managers or professionals. In fact many such groups are highly proletarianised and have none of the traditional autonomy of the liberal professions.



It may be true that from the purely governmental point of view those of our fellow nationals living in England are not our concern but that merely shows the limits of a narrow parochial nationalism. In the real world the fate of one's brother, sister, father or mother who happens to live in England is surely of real concern regardless of the idiotic borders drawn up by national chauvinists.

So the evidence that contradicts your assertions, is bourgeois?

And as for the point about concern for Welsh ex-patriates:

It's a practical reality - if they live in another country, then 99% of the time they will be governed by that country. I they reside in Wales, they will be governed by Wales. If you moved to spain tomorrow, how much government, administaration etc would you get from the UK? Very little, even if you are still a UK citizen. It is not "a narrow parochial nationalism", so stop trying to twist my words.

As much as slag nationalism and capitalism off, what is the alternative?

Capitalism has many faults, but it is much preferable to the repressive, brutal regimes that inevitably accompany communist governments. despite its idealistic appeal communism never works in reality. Your utopia, would be the vast majorities nightmarish dystopia, which is why your political ideology is supported by a tiny minority.

 

[neprimerimye]

So the evidence that contradicts your assertions, is bourgeois?

And as for the point about concern for Welsh ex-patriates:

It's a practical reality - if they live in another country, then 99% of the time they will be governed by that country. I they reside in Wales, they will be governed by Wales. If you moved to spain tomorrow, how much government, administaration etc would you get from the UK? Very little, even if you are still a UK citizen. It is not "a narrow parochial nationalism", so stop trying to twist my words.

As much as slag nationalism and capitalism off, what is the alternative?

Capitalism has many faults, but it is much preferable to the repressive, brutal regimes that inevitably accompany communist governments. despite its idealistic appeal communism never works in reality. Your utopia, would be the vast majorities nightmarish dystopia, which is why your political ideology is supported by a tiny minority.

The evidence that was cited supports my arguments and is most certainly bourgeois having been collected by an mpecably bourgeois body. What I dispute is the interpretation of the term class which is used.

As for your rather silly accusation that I'm twisting your words I simply disagree that an independent state is the way to go in Wales. It is a narrow parochial nationalism that says that the well being of hundreds of thopusands of outr fellow nationals who happen not to live here is not our concern.

Capitalism does have many faults on that at least you are correct. But you are quite wrong in your assertion that communism has peroduced repressive brutal regimes given that there have only been two countries cgoverned by communist regimes in modern history and both were suppressed by vicious capitalist counter-revolutions led by Horthy and Stalin.

 

[Dai Sheep]

I have to say, I disagree with you totally. Clearly you do with me - so lets end it there or this will go on forever. This thread has already been completely de-railed, with all this Marxist hocus.

 

[neprimerimye]

I have to say, I disagree with you totally. Clearly you do with me - so lets end it there or this will go on forever. This thread has already been completely de-railed, with all this Marxist hocus.

Well it was you that derailed it you know by asking questions as regards my views. Like it or not Wales is not a self contained country that can simply break away from the rest of the world and then live happily ever after.

Even in an independent Wales chains like Walmart will still exploit and abuse their workforces. And campaigns to promote a Welsh national consciousness, which Malmart will without doubt be happy to sponsor, will not change a thing. Raising the profile of Wales sounds very nice but Malmart will still make very nice profits.

So wherein lie the advantages to the population of Wales if Walmart and the rest of the gang still exploit and oppress us? Real advantages mind not intangibles like national pride and similar bollocks.

 

[ZIZI]

Plaid Cymru are changing their name or rather Identity-whatever that means.

So does that mean that they have finally realised that the majority of people in Wales do not want Independence yet until we have our own powers?

 

[SparoHawk]

If Wales went Independent now or in the near future (next 10 yrs) it would be like shutting down our bank account and not taking out our moneyfirst.

Because of the way our economy is run we have a right to the profits of that income.

As it is now, we still come off as big brothers poor cousins. We have a chance through devolution to gain our own powers and some Indepedence but not completely. It is not about wanting the cake and the icing, it is about what is rightfully ours in the first place.

 

[jannerboyuk]

with all this Marxist hocus.

"All that is solid melts into air..."