Independence is viable?

[Portia]

I think independence is a nice idea. how much difference would it really make? since we'd still be in the EU presumably. if we were independant would we get more money from brussels? does anyone think we'd join the euro?

 

[ZIZI]

Did anyone think we would win a Grand Slam last year?

It is possible. But like I said, until we are able to make our own law making decisions I think it would be ffolish to want Independence at this early stage. We need a good strong and intelligent Government in place that concerns itself with Welsh principles and interests. Making decisons and policies that are reletive to Wales and not the rest of Britain and Europe.

We have tripe at the moment and hopefully sooner rather than later the opposition parties will get their act together, stick with their courage of their convictions and form a coalition Government.

Wales are capable of running their own affairs, if only people had the belief to do so. I for one do not want my children growing up under the English rule. But, the timing has also got to be right.

 

[diond]

Did anyone think we would win a Grand Slam last year?

It is possible. But like I said, until we are able to make our own law making decisions I think it would be ffolish to want Independence at this early stage. We need a good strong and intelligent Government in place that concerns itself with Welsh principles and interests. Making decisons and policies that are reletive to Wales and not the rest of Britain and Europe.

We have tripe at the moment and hopefully sooner rather than later the opposition parties will get their act together, stick with their courage of their convictions and form a coalition Government.

Wales are capable of running their own affairs, if only people had the belief to do so. I for one do not want my children growing up under the English rule. But, the timing has also got to be right.

English rule?? What the fuck are you on about?? The last time I looked, this pathetic attempt at a Government was run by two Jocks and a Taffy, whose 'workplace' just happens to reside in England. (Although saying London is in England is open to interpretation by many as well.) A good proportion of the remainder of the Government is run by runts and outcasts born from outside of England too. They (the Government) certainly do not represent me as an English person, and I daresay many other English people would agree also. English rule, it certainly isn't.

 

[jannerboyuk]

A good proportion of the remainder of the Government is run by runts and outcasts born from outside of England too.

I say what a delightful chap you are. Thankyou for your delightful and insightful contribution to the Welsh Forum. Please feel free to go into greater detail. We are, as they say, agog.

 

[ZIZI]

English rule?? What the fuck are you on about?? The last time I looked, this pathetic attempt at a Government was run by two Jocks and a Taffy, whose 'workplace' just happens to reside in England. (Although saying London is in England is open to interpretation by many as well.) A good proportion of the remainder of the Government is run by runts and outcasts born from outside of England too. They (the Government) certainly do not represent me as an English person, and I daresay many other English people would agree also. English rule, it certainly isn't.

If its not English rule, then pray do tell.

 

[big footed fred]

We need a good strong and intelligent Government in place that concerns itself with Welsh principles and interests.

You have got fuck all chance mate. Show me a politician that gives a flying shit about anything except power and money and/or has a clue how to run a piss up in a brewery.

Dream on sunshine

 

[diond]

If its not English rule, then pray do tell.

I just have, or do I need to cut and paste my original post?

 

[diond]

I say what a delightful chap you are. Thankyou for your delightful and insightful contribution to the Welsh Forum. Please feel free to go into greater detail. We are, as they say, agog.

So what more do you need to know in me saying that a significant amount of the Government are runts and outcasts, young man? I thought it was quite self evident. Unless you are in favour of this Government? If that's the case, then why so?

 

[Karac]

English rule?? What the fuck are you on about?? The last time I looked, this pathetic attempt at a Government was run by two Jocks and a Taffy

Whos the Taffy?

 

[diond]

Whos the Taffy?

Prescott, of course. Google can be your friend if you're really unsure.

 

[jannerboyuk]

So what more do you need to know in me saying that a significant amount of the Government are runts and outcasts, young man? I thought it was quite self evident. Unless you are in favour of this Government? If that's the case, then why so?

Absolutely. Please tell me more.

 

[diond]

Absolutely. Please tell me more.

Are you sure you're not an aspiring politician? Please answer the questions in relation to the nature that they were asked.

 

[ZIZI]

I just have, or do I need to cut and paste my original post?

If you feel the need to cut and paste then feel free. It still won't answer my question.

Wales want's a Government that runs Welsh Business and affairs, that has its own law making powers and so has the best interests of Wales in mind and not what is dictated by Westminster.

At the moment we still go running back to Westmister cap in hand and get permission to pass our own policies and law.

It isn't relevant if the British/English Government is run by 2 Jocks and a Taff or if it is run by 3 Ignoranuses. The fact is ,it is the British Government which is run in England which has its English interests first and foremost and for some reason doesn't want to let go of Wales. Why?

If you object to the Government in your country, and I take it you are English and that you can trace your family back and say you are 100% English and not a Runt or an Outcast or even a Halfbreed then move into a country which would like to move away from English Rule, eg Wales, Scotland and Ireland. I am sure we will find a place for you to fit in.

 

[ZIZI]

You have got fuck all chance mate. Show me a politician that gives a flying shit about anything except power and money and/or has a clue how to run a piss up in a brewery.

Dream on sunshine

Have you ever seen a pig that flies?

 

[jannerboyuk]

Are you sure you're not an aspiring politician? Please answer the questions in relation to the nature that they were asked.

Thankyou so much for your interest. I'm very sorry to hear about your confusion. I hope it clears up soon.

 

[neprimerimye]

If its not English rule, then pray do tell.

Last time I looked both Wales and England were ruled by a democratically elected government. The real question is in whose interests does that government rule? Certainly not in the interests of the working classes in England.

 

[lewislewis]

Last time I looked both Wales and England were ruled by a democratically elected government. The real question is in whose interests does that government rule? Certainly not in the interests of the working classes in England.

It rules primarily in the interests of wealthy south-east England.

 

[lewislewis]

Prescott, of course. Google can be your friend if you're really unsure.

LOL, how in office has Prescott exhibited any 'Welsh' behaviour? How has the 'two Jocks and a Taffy' government ruled to benefit Wales? You won't answer, because you're thick.

 

[neprimerimye]

It rules primarily in the interests of wealthy south-east England.

Is this the same "wealthy south-east of England" which contains millions of workers? Is it the same "wealthy south-east of England" which contains the largest proportion of the 3 million foreign born workers who are often exploited by gangmasters? Is this the same "wealthy south-east of England" where millions more are just about getting by? How is the govenrnment ruling in their interest exactly?

 

[Dai Sheep]

Is this the same "wealthy south-east of England" which contains millions of workers? Is it the same "wealthy south-east of England" which contains the largest proportion of the 3 million foreign born workers who are often exploited by gangmasters? Is this the same "wealthy south-east of England" where millions more are just about getting by? How is the govenrnment ruling in their interest exactly?

no-one denies there are millions of workers in south-east England, but surely that is where the wealth and economic influence of the UK is concentrated - around the hinterland of London.

I assume you're looking at this from a Marxist point of view, but this is not a view many people will adhere to. This thread is about giving priority to Wales not England, regarding government. The workers of south-east England are not our concern really.

 

[Redstar]

I think the problem with this is that independence rarely comes out of the blue but is a result of a process. The establishment of the welsh office in the 1950's started the real process of devolution and asked the question of why the political administration of the devolved powers was placed in westminster hence the creation of the assembly.
I think the establishment of law making powers would always pose the question of what would the scope of these powers be? If Wales can legislate for transport why not the police for example? Inevitably i think you would get a creeping de facto independence.

I think this is more to the point. Surely the point of a democracy is the power to LEGISLATE. We are told by the powers-that-be that we now have a nascent welsh democracy. Really? How can it be a democracy when it has no power to make real changes which effect the day-to-day lives of ordinary people, and how can we do this without law-making powers?

As to the point about the police - isn't it obvious we need control over our own police forces when the English home secretary can steam roller through a merger of all the welsh forces and totally fly in the face of Welsh public opinion?

The logic of devolution will pull apart the UK. The sooner the better.

 

[Dhimmi]

Independence is always viable. Even if it meant a lower standard of living it's preferable isn't it?
You do need a voice in it though, and you'll rarely find that in Westminster. I'm English and keen on county independence, mainly to address the negative influence of London.

 

[neprimerimye]

no-one denies there are millions of workers in south-east England, but surely that is where the wealth and economic influence of the UK is concentrated - around the hinterland of London.

I assume you're looking at this from a Marxist point of view, but this is not a view many people will adhere to. This thread is about giving priority to Wales not England, regarding government. The workers of south-east England are not our concern really.

To be accurate this thread concerns whether or not independence is viable. Which question is not limited to questions of governance alone but economics too. It seems germane in this context to point out that the "wealthy south-east of England" does not benefit from Wales continuing as a part of the British state. The ruling class, that is the bourgeoisie, does.

In any case the workers of the south-east of England are "our concern" as to a considerable degree they are the consumers of products and services based in Wales. It is simply impossible to entangle the economies of Wales and England. Whether or not Wales chooses independence as an option the economies of the two countries will remain closely linked.

In another sense too the workers of south-east England are "our concern" as a rather large number of them happen to be Welsh. We know that birth rates are pretty much the same in both countries and that some 20-25% of the population here were born elsewhere. Given that the number of immigrants to Wales from outside britain is small most people born outside Wales then must come from England. In which case a similar number of Welsh born people must be living elsewhere most likely in the south-east of England. Are some hundreds of thouands of Welsh people then "not our concern"?

 

[neprimerimye]

Independence is always viable. Even if it meant a lower standard of living it's preferable isn't it?
You do need a voice in it though, and you'll rarely find that in Westminster. I'm English and keen on county independence, mainly to address the negative influence of London.

Independence is politically viable but only if economic links are maintained. For the very good reason that otherwise living standards would not be lowered but would plmmet catastrophically. Only the most narrow of nationalists would welcome independence under such circumstances the mass of the population would not.

 

[phildwyer]

In another sense too the workers of south-east England are "our concern" as a rather large number of them happen to be Welsh. We know that birth rates are pretty much the same in both countries and that some 20-25% of the population here were born elsewhere. Given that the number of immigrants to Wales from outside britain is small most people born outside Wales then must come from England. In which case a similar number of Welsh born people must be living elsewhere most likely in the south-east of England. Are some hundreds of thouands of Welsh people then "not our concern"?

Hang on a second, just because 20% of the population of Wales are English, it does not follow that 20% of Welsh-born people must be living elsewhere. Wales has never been much of a nation of emigrants, because we had the Industrial Revolution.

 

[neprimerimye]

Hang on a second, just because 20% of the population of Wales are English, it does not follow that 20% of Welsh-born people must be living elsewhere. Wales has never been much of a nation of emigrants, because we had the Industrial Revolution.

Phil birth rates in Wales and England are pretty much the same. Which would suggest that the over all population of Wales Should have experienced a large increase given the influx of the 20% of the population born in England.

Yet in reality Wales has not experienced a growth in population over and above that of England. It follows then that there must also be outward migration within Britain from Wales.

Indeed this is true of other 'regions' of Britain too is it not? Much of the north of England is in serious decline ouside the major cities with large sdale movements of population southward. This might be even more marked if age were factored in.

Moreover Wales has expwerienced serious outward migration since the industrial revolution. For example there were major movements of Welsh workers to the Midlands in the 1930 and 40s to take up employment in the car industry. There were also smaller movements of miners to the Kent coalfields as I recall from talking to lads there during the strike.

When you back here btw?

 

[lewislewis]

I think independence will be the logical end result of devolution.

Long way off yet. Let's get a Parliament for Wales, initiate a programme of nation building, then take a look at how the UK works and whether we need to leave it.

 

[Dai Sheep]

To be accurate this thread concerns whether or not independence is viable. Which question is not limited to questions of governance alone but economics too. It seems germane in this context to point out that the "wealthy south-east of England" does not benefit from Wales continuing as a part of the British state. The ruling class, that is the bourgeoisie, does.

In any case the workers of the south-east of England are "our concern" as to a considerable degree they are the consumers of products and services based in Wales. It is simply impossible to entangle the economies of Wales and England. Whether or not Wales chooses independence as an option the economies of the two countries will remain closely linked.

In another sense too the workers of south-east England are "our concern" as a rather large number of them happen to be Welsh. We know that birth rates are pretty much the same in both countries and that some 20-25% of the population here were born elsewhere. Given that the number of immigrants to Wales from outside britain is small most people born outside Wales then must come from England. In which case a similar number of Welsh born people must be living elsewhere most likely in the south-east of England. Are some hundreds of thouands of Welsh people then "not our concern"?

I meant the workers of soth east England are not our concern from a governmental/administrative point of view.

You're right in saying that alot of Welsh born people live in south-east England. But also in the south west amongst other areas. But if they are resident there, then No they are not our concern.

And incidentally about these "workers"

"The Labour Force Survey found that among working age people born in Wales, those living outside the country were more highly qualified and more likely to belong to the higher social classes than those still living in Wales"

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=450

I mean considering the high cost of property/living in the south east, then most people who went there would surely have to have a well paid job?

 

[neprimerimye]

I meant the workers of soth east England are not our concern from a governmental/administrative point of view.

You're right in saying that alot of Welsh born people live in south-east England. But also in the south west amongst other areas. But if they are resident there, then No they are not our concern.

And incidentally about these "workers"

"The Labour Force Survey found that among working age people born in Wales, those living outside the country were more highly qualified and more likely to belong to the higher social classes than those still living in Wales"

I mean considering the high cost of property/living in the south east, then most people who went there would surely have to have a well paid job?

That those Welsh workers living in England are more highly qualified, on average, than those remaining in Wales is probably true. But the conclusion that they are therefore not workers is wrong in that the Labour Force Survey, in common with other bourgeois sources, categorises many workers as managers or professionals. In fact many such groups are highly proletarianised and have none of the traditional autonomy of the liberal professions.

It may be true that from the purely governmental point of view those of our fellow nationals living in England are not our concern but that merely shows the limits of a narrow parochial nationalism. In the real world the fate of one's brother, sister, father or mother who happens to live in England is surely of real concern regardless of the idiotic borders drawn up by national chauvinists.

 

[neprimerimye]

I think independence will be the logical end result of devolution.

Long way off yet. Let's get a Parliament for Wales, initiate a programme of nation building, then take a look at how the UK works and whether we need to leave it.

What does "nation building" mean?

I for one do not wish to be included into any imaginary community.