independence for the falklands

[likesfish]

falklands is 300 miles from argentina
we have a better claim on dublin than they have on the falklands ffs at least the union jack flew in dublin argentina never had a legit presence there
may go like belize independant but defended by the UK until argentina grows up.
personally I think we should claim monaco its warm rich and not that far away
the UN only carrys on with it as it allows lots of small countrys to look big without actually doing anythink

 

[Belushi]

I don't really know enough about the Falklands to comment beyond my "general sense" of things, which is that in a largely post-colonial world, the remaining idiosyncracies such as the Falklands seem to appear increasingly anachronistic.

On that basis, it should be given back to the Argentinians (and Gibralter to the Spaniards).

Whats anachronistic about allowing the inhabitants of places self determination about which state, if any, they wish to belong to?

 

[Jessiedog]

Whats anachronistic about allowing the inhabitants of places self determination about which state, if any, they wish to belong to?

That's not what I wrote.



Woof

 

[Belushi]

That's not what I wrote.



Woof

Its how I read it, what did you mean then?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I'll piss off and read the thread until I've learned enough to comment further and feel the urge to so do.

May i recomend the Max Hastings and (Simon?) Jennings book, it covers the history, politics and the war itself quite well. It doesn't go into the covert assistance that we got from france/US, presumably because when it went to print it was still a secret.

 

[JHE]

IIRC, the Gibraltans had a referendum a couple of years back where 99% voted to remain British and rejected even split ownership with Spain.

Yup, you do remember correctly.

 

[Idaho]

I think self determination is a political principle that must be upheld if the opinion is fairly unanimous. Obviously in many other situations where opinion is not so clear, things get a bit more complex (N.Ireland, Cyprus, etc).

 

[Jessiedog]

Its how I read it, what did you mean then?

I meant that the idea of the UK laying claim to a wee piece of faraway land, in the context of its general withdrawal from colonialism since the 2nd WW, seems anachronistic. Decolonilisation has always been implicit in the post war era, I'm not sure what has changed.



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

May i recomend the Max Hastings and (Simon?) Jennings book, it covers the history, politics and the war itself quite well. It doesn't go into the covert assistance that we got from france/US, presumably because when it went to print it was still a secret.

Thanks, but it's not gonna happen. Time .

But I'll read this thread when I have the chance.



Woof

 

[Belushi]

I meant that the idea of the UK laying claim to a wee piece of faraway land, in the context of its general withdrawal from colonialism since the 2nd WW, seems anachronistic. Decolonilisation has always been implicit in the post war era, I'm not sure what has changed.



Woof

Well , the difference is that the majority of the population overwhelmingly wish to remain British, I'm sure if that had been the case in other colonies they would have remained so too.

 

[likesfish]

it may be a colony but there were no natives that were colonized.
argentina never owned the falklands but wants to hardly decolonisation if you going to hand the people who live there to another state against there wishes
Thats the diffrence its 400 miles off the coast of argentina hardly next door.
the falkland islanders want to remain british or go for independence they don't want to be colonised by argentina .
Argentina has no legitimate claim to the islands and can't take them by force tough shit

 

[Jessiedog]

Well , the difference is that the majority of the population overwhelmingly wish to remain British, I'm sure if that had been the case in other colonies they would have remained so too.

Hmmmm.

Read my posts on this thread regarding who wanted to be handed back to whom by whom and when.



I'm confused here.

Really - read the thread.

What exactly is the UK's colonial policy based upon these days? As I've mentioned, probably geopolitical concerns that are way beyond my ken.

But I've clearly stated that I believe it has fuck-all to do with what "the majority of the population overwhelmingly wish".

I agree with Idaho that I may be cynical, but I'd never had you pegged as naive - I think, therefore, that we must be talking at cross purposes.

Ummmmmm.....



Sorry.

*grabs self by tail and drags off to bed*



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

it may be a colony but there were no natives that were colonized.
argentina never owned the falklands but wants to hardly decolonisation if you going to hand the people who live there to another state against there wishes
Thats the diffrence its 400 miles off the coast of argentina hardly next door.
the falkland islanders want to remain british or go for independence they don't want to be colonised by argentina .

Everything you say here is also true of Hong Kong.

Everything! (Apart perhaps from "ownership", and that's always fluid, depending upon interest or expediency.)

So, there's a precedent.

Argentina has no legitimate claim to the islands and can't take them by force tough shit

Well exactly.

That's the point I'm making.

It's got fuck-all to do with "what the peeps want". Merely who has the power to extract the most economic value.


Sadly.



Woof

 

[likesfish]

what choice did the uk have with hong kong should have handed out passports true and left china with an empty colony prefably burnt.
but there was no way of holding china back
falklands we could fight and did .
and now have south americas most powerful aid force parked on the island 4 wheezing tornadno f4s designed for shooting bombers down over sea and huge honking land based radars
as far as argentinas concerned game over

 

[Belushi]

Hmmmm.

Read my posts on this thread regarding who wanted to be handed back to whom by whom and when.



I'm confused here.

Really - read the thread.

What exactly is the UK's colonial policy based upon these days? As I've mentioned, probably geopolitical concerns that are way beyond my ken.

But I've clearly stated that I believe it has fuck-all to do with what "the majority of the population overwhelmingly wish".

I agree with Idaho that I may be cynical, but I'd never had you pegged as naive - I think, therefore, that we must be talking at cross purposes.

Ummmmmm.....



Sorry.

*grabs self by tail and drags off to bed*



Woof

The UKs treatment of the Hong Kong people was despicable, however thats no reason fot the Falklanders to be treated in the same appalling way.

 

[Jessiedog]

what choice did the uk have with hong kong should have handed out passports true and left china with an empty colony prefably burnt.
but there was no way of holding china back
falklands we could fight and did .
and now have south americas most powerful aid force parked on the island 4 wheezing tornadno f4s designed for shooting bombers down over sea and huge honking land based radars
as far as argentinas concerned game over

Well I guess that's true if you take a zero-sum, bigger-stick-wins approach.

Doesn't necessarily make it right.

Does it?



Woof

 

[likesfish]

international law is made by force of arms basically
appeals to chinas better nature (i mean the despostic tyranny not the people) there isn't one same as the argie junta.
now the falklands has been british since 1832 we can and have defended it the inhabitants want to remain British .
Argentina can sulk all it wants its not getting the falklands unless the islanders want to be argentininan end of arguement.
theres nothing they can do on that score.
the UN general assembely is essentialy toothless (and considering some of the states that have a vote in it rightly so )
there arguement boils down to its 400 miles off our coast and we want it tough

 

[dylanredefined]

British colonial policy ha ha there isnt one .Its been get rid of the embrassing
things cant ditch the falklands political sucide .They would get rid of the rest in a heart beat if they wanted independence or they could hand them over to.

 

[Jessiedog]

The UKs treatment of the Hong Kong people was despicable,

Agreed.

however thats no reason fot the Falklanders to be treated in the same appalling way.

Agreed.

Although, as I've mentioned, I really don't know very much about the Falklands.

Presumably, the UK govt. could give them British passports (if they don't hold them already,) and some compensation and ship 'em back to blighty. After all, I understand the Falklanders want to be British and Argentina wants the land.

And I do find it incongruous that in the post-colonial era, the UK is trying to hold on to a tiny bit of land, thousands of miles away. As I said, anachronistic.



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

international law is made by force of arms basically

Well, if the UK has the bigger stick, then that's it.

I guess humanity hasn't really evolved that much after all.



Woof

 

[Bigdavalad]

Presumably, the UK govt. could give them British passports (if they don't hold them already,) and some compensation and ship 'em back to blighty. After all, I understand the Falklanders want to be British and Argentina wants the land.

And I do find it incongruous that in the post-colonial era, the UK is trying to hold on to a tiny bit of land, thousands of miles away. As I said, anachronistic.



Woof

But why should the Falklanders (most of whom can trace their families on the Islands back 150-odd years) have to leave their homes just because the Argentinians want the land?

 

[Jessiedog]

But why should the Falklanders (most of whom can trace their families on the Islands back 150-odd years) have to leave their homes just because the Argentinians want the land?

It looks like they don't have to - the UK has a bigger stick.



Woof

 

[likesfish]

Thats it job done
UK goverment is prepared to negotiate if the islanders wanted to be argentinina n we'd be out of there like a shot .
Unfortunatly theres nothing argentina can offer the islanders that they want plus Argentina's economy is still a joke.
whine all you like about international law but unless you can enforce said law by force of arms and have somebody prepared to spend there states cash and or the lives of there citizens to enforce that law thens its useless.
thats why the sudans still a mess

 

[Belushi]

Agreed.





Agreed.

Although, as I've mentioned, I really don't know very much about the Falklands.

Presumably, the UK govt. could give them British passports (if they don't hold them already,) and some compensation and ship 'em back to blighty. After all, I understand the Falklanders want to be British and Argentina wants the land.

And I do find it incongruous that in the post-colonial era, the UK is trying to hold on to a tiny bit of land, thousands of miles away. As I said, anachronistic.



Woof

I really dont see what is anachronistic about it - they're British Citizens entitled to remain a part of the UK as long as they want, the government can no more give them away to a foreign country than they could give away Devon for example. As long as they wish to remain British then they can, the moment they decide they want to be independent or join Argentina then they will be free to do so.

 

[david dissadent]

And I do find it incongruous that in the post-colonial era, the UK is trying to hold on to a tiny bit of land, thousands of miles away. As I said, anachronistic.



Woof

If anything happens to the Panama Canal, how important would the horn route become?

I have heard from multiple sources (i.e. hearsay) that the UK and US retain basing rights in Simons Town, the South African naval base.

 

[Jessiedog]

I really dont see what is anachronistic about it - they're British Citizens entitled to remain a part of the UK as long as they want, the government can no more give them away to a foreign country than they could give away Devon for example. As long as they wish to remain British then they can, the moment they decide they want to be independent or join Argentina then they will be free to do so.

You quoted my post, and nowhere have I suggested they be "given away", or that they not stay British.



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

If anything happens to the Panama Canal, how important would the horn route become?

I have heard from multiple sources (i.e. hearsay) that the UK and US retain basing rights in Simons Town, the South African naval base.

I know little about the Panama Canal and not a huge amount more about South Africa (apart from having relatives there,) I'm afraid. East Asia is more my thang really, but as I said earlier......

I know little of the wider geopolitical issues surrounding the Falklands - and there must be a few, or the UK would have thrown it back long ago. Given the historical behaviour of the UK, however, with HK as a recent example, I very much doubt that "concern for the peeps living there" is given anything close to a strong weighting in the equation. But I suppose they are mostly white, so........

Generally, govt. tends to see people as expendable.



Woof

 

[cemertyone]

argentina because of forth coming presidential elections is trying to stir up the falklands issue again
falklands themselves are talking of becoming independant which would really piss on the argies chips. there whole arguement is the islands are a colony and should be returned to argentina.
just one problem the islanders really really don't want to be argentinian and who can blame them. wrong languague and a joke of an economy

Nice to see your maintaining your usual English zenophobic shit based on little evidence and pure conjecture..... doing the little colonialist thing that where so used to you doing on these boards.....off you go and sing Rule Britianna son oh and you can take your Saint George flags of your car....

 

[Idaho]

Not a particularly meaningful contribution to the debate. I don't think likesfish's points were particularly xenophobic. You post just seems to be a sequence of the usual knee-jerk responses.

Why would you support Argentinian colonialism?

 

[likesfish]

the Bennies maybe strange and inbred and the island istelf cold and miserable but no reason to hand them over to a military junta that wanted to feel better or even now a democratic goverment.
self determination why does'nt it work for you cemetry?