Independence for London - where to set the borders?

[teuchter]

When I was younger and growing up in the north of Scotland I used to support the idea of Scottish independence. I can't now remember exactly why. I think it was to do with a feeling that UK government in London was distant and unaware of / uninterested in what was going on in Scotland. Now I'm not so interested in the the whole nationalism thing because I think there are plenty of good reasons to remain part of the UK.

Anyway, these days I'm living in London and now and again I run into English people who reckon the UK would be better off without Scotland. Generally the reasoning being that Scotland eats up more in state spending than it generates in tax revenue. Well, I'm sure there are plenty who will debate that. But, if one accepts that logic for now, then from the point of view of someone living in the south-east of England, surely we should also "get rid of" most of the North of England, Cornwall and lots of other places?

So I always wonder ... if one were to take that logic further and make the case for an independent London, where should the border be?

Let's say our aim is to serve the selfish interests of those living in central London. We want to make as much money as possible and spend as little as possible on subsidising those annoying provinces.

Should we set the border round zone 1, zone2, the M25, or are we best to include a few bits of the home counties too?




Before anyone starts having a go at me, I am NOT suggesting this as a good idea .... just a little thought experiment, if you like. Because whenever I get into the whole discussion of whether the UK would be "better off" without Scotland, there's a kind of train of thought that ends up here.

 

[Pete the Greek]

Nah, Home Counties around London are well shit and rank....Berkshire, Herts, Kent, Essex, all the scummy arse rimming bits around the M25...


You'd have to use the M25 as a maximum outer ring fence for Londoninium or whatever you'd call it.

Then you could get to work on using the city of london to pay for turning the gigantic shit heap into somewhere vaguely liveable

 

[teuchter]

Nah, Home Counties around London are well shit and rank....Berkshire, Herts, Kent, Essex, all the scummy arse rimming bits around the M25...


You'd have to use the M25 as a maximum outer ring fence for Londoninium or whatever you'd call it.

Then you could get to work on using the city of london to pay for turning the gigantic shit heap into somewhere vaguely liveable

But then wouldn't we have to worry about all those commuter types who work in the city but live in Surrey taking money out of our country?

 

[Pete the Greek]

But then wouldn't we have to worry about all those commuter types who work in the city but live in Surrey taking money out of our country?

Not if you made them deposit in Londinum banks which taxed them somehow for spending money outside the country.

You could work it some way to fuck traitors

 

[Yossarian]

They work in London, they'll have their taxes deducted from their payroll by the London government and if they want to keep their homes across the border, that's their business - at least they won't be inside the M25 voting Tory.

 

[Pete the Greek]

They work in London, they'll have their taxes deducted from their payroll by the London government and if they want to keep their homes across the border, that's their business - at least they won't be inside the M25 voting Tory.

Surely the only way Londinium could work is if it went Tory?

Tory areas are best.

 

[Yossarian]

London's an island of red in a sea of blue. I'd like it to be independent to save it being cursed with Tory governments forevermore after the Scottish go independent.

 

[Pete the Greek]

London's an island of red in a sea of blue. I'd like it to be independent to save it being cursed with Tory governments forevermore after the Scottish go independent.

Except you've neglected one small point. It's London and the SE that bankrolls the rest of this wasteland of a barren fucked up country. So if it went independent, the income tax rate would be somewhere between 7 and 12 percent as a single band. (a figure I heard from a source once on the topic of "if London went independent".

With that sort of taxation, London would become a toff filled Monaco and the Tories would be the left wing party with UKIP or some weird equivalent as the right leaning lobby!

 

[Yossarian]

We could donate some to a charitable foundation to help those unfortunate foreigners in Hampshire, Northumberland, and Suffolk.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

the M25 is a good start for a border. but what should be done with croydon?

 

[bluestreak]

nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

INDEPENDENCE FOR LONDON!

 

[DownwardDog]

London's an island of red in a sea of blue. I'd like it to be independent to save it being cursed with Tory governments forevermore after the Scottish go independent.

Scottish independence would actually give ZanuLab a greater majority in England.

2005 General Election from the Electoral Commission website...

Conservative: 8,114,979 votes, 194 seats
Labour 8,050,366 votes, 286 seats

So despite losing the popular vote by almost 65,000 Labour would have a even better majority (92 seats) in a purely English parliament than they do in the current one. It illustrates the massive, unfair bias toward Labour with the current constituency boundaries.

 

[teuchter]

the M25 is a good start for a border. but what should be done with croydon?

why the M25 rather than, say, the edge of zone 2?

 

[Yossarian]

It seems like a natural barrier - or as natural as a great big motorway can be, anyway - and it'd give London a fair bit of green space, and Heathrow.

 

[zenie]

why the M25 rather than, say, the edge of zone 2?

I'd agree with that

Anything outside of zone 2 just feels like the suburbs to me

 

[bluestreak]

I'd agree with that

Anything outside of zone 2 just feels like the suburbs to me

nah, see yoss' post!

 

[teuchter]

It seems like a natural barrier - or as natural as a great big motorway can be, anyway - and it'd give London a fair bit of green space, and Heathrow.

What good is the green space to us, though? Does it make us any money? Can't we just go across the border to Kent or somewhere if we want some green space?

And does having all those crappy zone 3 and 4 suburbs provide any benefit?

 

[bluestreak]

no, cos we need expansion space. we can't stop london growing.

 

[Yossarian]

We can grow food on it and all if the provinces start trying to overcharge us…

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

This should do ya

 

[Irenick]

no, cos we need expansion space. we can't stop london growing.

What, like Lebensraum? Shouldn't we then invade Poland; and, then mistime an incursion into Russia? Isn't that how it's normally done?

 

[lewislewis]

London's an island of red in a sea of blue. I'd like it to be independent to save it being cursed with Tory governments forevermore after the Scottish go independent.

That map is insane. Look how conservative England is !

 

[Jografer]

That map is insane. Look how conservative England is !

but that's all tory trees.. compare a poulation density map with a constituency map to get a proper picture....

 

[Divisive Cotton]

This should do ya

Home Rule for Hackney!

 

[Divisive Cotton]

When I was younger and growing up in the north of Scotland I used to support the idea of Scottish independence. I can't now remember exactly why. I think it was to do with a feeling that UK government in London was distant and unaware of / uninterested in what was going on in Scotland. Now I'm not so interested in the the whole nationalism thing because I think there are plenty of good reasons to remain part of the UK.

Anyway, these days I'm living in London and now and again I run into English people who reckon the UK would be better off without Scotland. Generally the reasoning being that Scotland eats up more in state spending than it generates in tax revenue. Well, I'm sure there are plenty who will debate that. But, if one accepts that logic for now, then from the point of view of someone living in the south-east of England, surely we should also "get rid of" most of the North of England, Cornwall and lots of other places?

So I always wonder ... if one were to take that logic further and make the case for an independent London, where should the border be?

Let's say our aim is to serve the selfish interests of those living in central London. We want to make as much money as possible and spend as little as possible on subsidising those annoying provinces.

Should we set the border round zone 1, zone2, the M25, or are we best to include a few bits of the home counties too?




Before anyone starts having a go at me, I am NOT suggesting this as a good idea .... just a little thought experiment, if you like. Because whenever I get into the whole discussion of whether the UK would be "better off" without Scotland, there's a kind of train of thought that ends up here.

I like your argument here. In fact, it will be like little islands of independence in London - Chelsea, Hampstead, Kennsington and Knightsbridge...

There could be big flyovers built to link them altogether - it will be like the West Bank.

 

[poster342002]

London's an island of red in a sea of blue. I'd like it to be independent to save it being cursed with Tory governments forevermore after the Scottish go independent.

Yeah - but they're not 'proper' red, leftist regimes in the proper sense of the word. They're NuLabs.

 

[poster342002]

That map is insane. Look how conservative England is !

So is London: it's just that london's reactionary twendy middleclass prats go for NuLab instead of Tory - the acceptable way to ensure rightwing neoliberal policies without the stigma of being seen to be an overt tory.

 

[teuchter]

Yeah - but they're not 'proper' red, leftist regimes in the proper sense of the word. They're NuLabs.

This party politics bickering is a bit boring, if you will forgive me for saying so.

I was hoping someone might be able to come up with a plausible economic rationale as to why the border should be set at such-and-such a distance from the centre .... ?

 

[Yossarian]

So is London: it's just that london's reactionary twendy middleclass prats go for NuLab instead of Tory - the acceptable way to ensure rightwing neoliberal policies without the stigma of being seen to be an overt tory.

Yeah, I guess for young people today there'd be no greater shame than embarrasing yourself in the voting booth by putting an X next to the Conservative candidate, what with all the people watching.

 

[kyser_soze]

I'd like to see it so that London gets all the tax revenue it generates back to spend on itself. Net contributor to the UK economy - it's why I always find it funny when regionals complain about how London 'sucks all the money in' - well it doesn't.