Independence for Kosovo?

[Cadmus]

Belgrade and Kosovo delegations are starting talks on decentralisation of the region tomorrow in Vienna. This will include talks on Kosovo's future.

Kosovo is legally part of Serbia. It became a U.N. protectorate in 1999 when NATO bombings drove out Serb forces accused of atrocities against Albanian civilians in a two-year war with separatist guerrillas.

Serbia opposes Kosovo's independence and the radical party stated that should Kosovo become independent, it will treat it as Eastern Germany or simply as a state of occupation. However, 90% of the Kosovo population are ethnic Albanians who demand nothing less than independence.

This comes at a time when Serbia's smaller state partner, Montenegro, is also preparing for an independence referendum in April.

Should independence of Kosovo be imposed on Serbia?

I don't think there's a chance Serbia will agree to independence but ethnic Albanians won't agree to anything less.

What do you think?

 

[JHE]

Isn't there going to be a referendum in Kosovo this year to decide the question? (Perhaps I'm misremembering that.)

Edit: It looks like I was wrong.

In January 2006, the Contact Group (US, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Russia) met in London and issued a statement endorsing an independent, Albanian Kosovo, separated from Serbia. Their statement explicitly reiterated that the "Contact Group Guiding Principles of November 2005 make clear that there should be: no return of Kosovo to the pre-1999 situation, no partition of Kosovo, and no union of Kosovo with any or part of another country." The only option this does not exclude is the formally recognized status quo: Kosovo as an independent country, ruled by Albanians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War

 

[oi2002]

Post-Slobo Serbia actually isn't that bad and some of the KLA folks who'll run the show in Kosova are vicous ethnic gangsters in the style of Arkan, Kosovars may actually be better off as a province of their old enemy Serbia.

 

[Cadmus]

This is why talks will focus on the Serbian minority in Kosovo first. (BBC link)

However i doubt this will address the main issue - Serbs are simply reluctant to give it up.

 

[nino_savatte]

Post-Slobo Serbia actually isn't that bad and some of the KLA folks who'll run the show in Kosova are vicous ethnic gangsters in the style of Arkan, Kosovars may actually be better off as a province of their old enemy Serbia.

Exactly and this hardly ever gets a mention in the media.

 

[nino_savatte]

This is why talks will focus on the Serbian minority in Kosovo first. (BBC link)

However i doubt this will address the main issue - Serbs are simply reluctant to give it up.

Interesting. Presumably you know what Kosovo means to Serbia...or is it the case that, in your eyes, the Serbs are evil butchers?

Does the year 1389 have any significance to you? No, it won't but it does to the Serbs.

http://www.du.edu/~sward/kosovo.html

 

[dylanredefined]

It dosent really matter what the serbs think kosovo means to them .The
majority of the inhabitents hate the serbs and serbia .The minority of serbs who live there have problems (i.e. the albainans want them dead) though
they had nothing to do with the kosovo war .
Serbia has changed but I wouldnt think you could expect the albainians to
take kindly to being part of serbia again.

 

[Cadmus]

I prefer to look at this as a much wider issue - the question of successful or unsuccessful minority separatist movements.

Since WWII few examples of successful secession have taken place - there's the Bangladesh-Pakistan secession in 1971 and the independence of Eritrea (tho this is more of a late decolonisation result). It seems however there's a great chance that this will be another successful story.

Secondly, the international community generally discourages secession, for the same reason it discourages alteration of boundaries. However, self-determination* is a recognised UN principle and in this case secession is actually a solution the international community supports. I'm interested in why is consistency in attitude being abandoned here.

Then there's the feasibility issue - is Kosovo mature enough to govern itself democratically? According to the BBC, the final solution must be the one that has the support of the 'majority'. But the bid for autonomy makes sense only if the emerging state and that particular 'majority' will respect democratic principles.

Maybe a federal system would be better than autonomy?

[SIZE=-2]*btw self-determination in the UN system refers to "peoples" or "nations", not to ethnic minorities. Under the UN, ethnic minorities have a right to cultural self-determination but not secession since the right to self-determination is reserved for their motherland - in this case Albania.[/SIZE]

 

[nino_savatte]

It dosent really matter what the serbs think kosovo means to them .The
majority of the inhabitents hate the serbs and serbia .The minority of serbs who live there have problems (i.e. the albainans want them dead) though
they had nothing to do with the kosovo war .
Serbia has changed but I wouldnt think you could expect the albainians to
take kindly to being part of serbia again.

Au contraire, it matters and it matters very much to the Serbs; it is part and parcel of their culture. However I suspect history is something of an irritation in your case because here you display an extraordinary lack of knowledge of the region. For the most part it looks like tabloid propaganda.

I guess you've never heard of Stefan Dušan.

 

[zoltan]

GO and nose around the place before you make a decision on whether it should have Independance. I have & would not relish the spectre of a proto-rogue state run by corrupt politicians. The UN is not really keeping a lid on things too well, even with the massive budget it has.

And dont get into the Albanian/ Serb ongoing scrap/fracas as any reason to press for independance - it is fairly evident to some of us who have been there that the Criminal organisations that have settled within Kosovo do so with the tacit agreement of UN & we have found a high degree of co-operation between Serb & Albanian Organisations exploiting the area for their own commercial ends.

Dont believe all you read. This is a place that IMO is scarier than Transnistria & cannot be left to its own devices yet.

 

[dylanredefined]

I agree with the above giving it back to serbia isnt really an option as the albinians will start a civil war imho .Guess the un are stuck with it

 

[JoePolitix]

Au contraire, it matters and it matters very much to the Serbs; it is part and parcel of their culture.

Rather like Western Sahara is part of Moroccan culture or "Judea and Sameria" is part of Israeli culture?

The facts are that 90% of Kosovans are ethnic Albanians and the vast majority want independence from Serbia.

Not suprising really when you consider that following the removal of Kosova’s autonomous status in 1989 Kosovar Albanians suffered systematic sacking from their jobs, the denial of their right to use their own language and bore the brunt of a whole range of other Serb Chauvinist politics.

They have the right to independence which must be supported uncondtionally - independence from Serbia, NATO and Rambouillet.

 

[Cadmus]

They have the right to independence which must be supported unconditionally

Unconditionally?

To me this argument makes sense only if one is prepared to apply it consistently over the globe regarding ethnic minorities. But im not sure the domino effect is desirable since it would effectively redraw the current world map completely.

 

[nino_savatte]

Rather like Western Sahara is part of Moroccan culture or "Judea and Sameria" is part of Israeli culture?

The facts are that 90% of Kosovans are ethnic Albanians and the vast majority want independence from Serbia.

Not suprising really when you consider that following the removal of Kosova’s autonomous status in 1989 Kosovar Albanians suffered systematic sacking from their jobs, the denial of their right to use their own language and bore the brunt of a whole range of other Serb Chauvinist politics.

They have the right to independence which must be supported uncondtionally - independence from Serbia, NATO and Rambouillet.

Hardly but what people fail to understand is the potency of the story of Kosovo, Serbia and the Field of Blackbirds.

But what I'm getting from you is: Serbs = bad.

 

[zoltan]

Hardly but what people fail to understand is the potency of the story of Kosovo, Serbia and the Field of Blackbirds.

But what I'm getting from you is: Serbs = bad.

When you are discussing the Balkans, there is no-one who can really adopt the mantle of good or bad. What has happened recently is only the latest in a 1000+ years of animosity, slaughter & grudge bearing.

In the Balkans, you subdivide by allegience or ethnicity to a finite level & you would never please everyone - villages are still split into their various groupings - I have seen kids under 10 years old molotov cocktailing an Orthodox church with old Serb People hiding in it - the only thing stopping them from carrying this out was the massed line of KFOR Greek APCs & troops - and this was only a few months ago, not at some distant point in the dark old 1990's.

look at the mess of Republika Serpska / Bosnia and still there is no clear distinction as to where one groups boundaries lie & anothers begin.Its a fuckin mess.

 

[nino_savatte]

When you are discussing the Balkans, there is no-one who can really adopt the mantle of good or bad. What has happened recently is only the latest in a 1000+ years of animosity, slaughter & grudge bearing.

In the Balkans, you subdivide by allegience or ethnicity to a finite level & you would never please everyone - villages are still split into their various groupings - I have seen kids under 10 years old molotov cocktailing an Orthodox church with old Serb People hiding in it - the only thing stopping them from carrying this out was the massed line of KFOR Greek APCs & troops - and this was only a few months ago, not at some distant point in the dark old 1990's.

look at the mess of Republika Serpska / Bosnia and still there is no clear distinction as to where one groups boundaries lie & anothers begin.Its a fuckin mess.

For sure but the media and many others have been quick to paint the Serbs as "evil".

 

[Cadmus]

Coming back to the issue of the thread, if they decide on independence this could become a strong precedent for say South Osetia.

There has been some reassuring of the international community that this would be a unique exception but that's just bollocks imho.

 

[JoePolitix]

Unconditionally?

To me this argument makes sense only if one is prepared to apply it consistently over the globe regarding ethnic minorities. But im not sure the domino effect is desirable since it would effectively redraw the current world map completely.

I'm not sure who the rather royal "one" you refer to is, surely how people are ruled should be nobodies buisness but their own. Anyway:

1. Ethnic Albanians are not an "ethnic minoritiy" they constitute 90% of the population of Kosova.

2. Supporting the right for Kosovan independence should be unconditional because it is the desire of the majority of the population - elimentary democracy really.

3. If an oppressed nation gains the right to self determination then any "domino effect" it may have would be a positive one. Maybe if the Palestinians, Kurds, Chechens and Saharans got their own states it would be a good thing rather than a bad one?

4. Who gives a stuff about if there is a need to "redraw the current world map", that's how old style colonianism was defeated and it's not like the current world is such a great place to live in for the majority of it's population anyhow.

 

[dylanredefined]

No handing kosovo back to serbia bad idea (not serbs bad ).Unless you can come up with a way of convincing the locals that it would be a good idea .

 

[JoePolitix]

Hardly but what people fail to understand is the potency of the story of Kosovo, Serbia and the Field of Blackbirds.

But what I'm getting from you is: Serbs = bad.

Why? Serbia's neo-colonial rule over the Kosova Albanians was certainly bad, quite monsterous in fact. I don't think voicing this opinion makes you anti-Serbian any more than opposing the occupation of Kurdistan makes you anti-Turkish.

 

[Cadmus]

1. Ethnic Albanians are not an "ethnic minority" they constitute 90% of the population of Kosova.

This an absurd argument. Try and keep in mind that Kosovo is just a province, as much as Essex is. Ethnic Albanians in Serbia are a minority within the sovereign state of Serbia. Under your definition of a minority there would actually be no minorities whatsoever since usually every minority does indeed form a majority within a particular territory.

Im afraid it's impossible to take this discussion out of the ethnic minorities / separatist movements context.

2. Supporting the right for Kosovan independence should be unconditional because it is the desire of the majority of the population - elementary democracy really.

Quite detached from elementary democracy, im afraid. While it is true that 'it is for the people to determine the destiny of the territory and not the territory the destiny of the people', in this case 'elementary democracy' (as you understand it) sanctions secession of an integral part of a sovereign state against the wishes of the majority in that particular state which is quite contrary to principles of democracy actually.

3. If an oppressed nation gains the right to self determination then any "domino effect" it may have would be a positive one. Maybe if the Palestinians, Kurds, Chechens and Saharans got their own states it would be a good thing rather than a bad one?

The nation you're referring to (the Albanian nation) exercises its right to self-determination already within the boundaries of the state of Albania. Unlike the Palestinians, for instance, Albanians already have their nation-state, right on the border with Serbia (or the part of it known as Kosovo). This is why the Albanian minority in Serbia imo has no claim to an 'additional' right of self-determination.

Giving every minority (which forms a majority in a particular territorial unit) a right to self-determination gets you to a point where you can award independence to a bunch of villages in a province in any country. The criterion has to be more precise and in my opinion definitely not unconditional.

Edit to add an interesting point - the Badinter Commission, which legally oversaw the dissolution of Yugoslavia, ruled that the constituent republics of Yugoslavia might turn into states but that entities within the republics could not make similar claims. Claiming that there can be no secession from secession the Badinter Commission allowed only for territorial autonomy of those entities.

The current negotiations seem to be taking an opposing direction.

 

[nino_savatte]

Why? Serbia's neo-colonial rule over the Kosova Albanians was certainly bad, quite monsterous in fact. I don't think voicing this opinion makes you anti-Serbian any more than opposing the occupation of Kurdistan makes you anti-Turkish.

Kosovo was also once part of Yugoslavia but this continued assymetricality with regards to the Serbs is wearing thin...

 

[dylanredefined]

Ok sell the return of the serbs to the albnians .Cant can you ? so whats the answer un there forever state failing .Defacto independence or what.

 

[oi2002]

ISince WWII few examples of successful secession have taken place...

This is true and of those few successful examples we'd have to include Pakistan. If you want an example of why allowing any old bunch of fanatical rogues to start up their own corrupt tax farm this is the one.

A million dead at partition, 1.5 million dead slaughtered by the Pakistani military when a neglected Bangledesh tried to seceed. The Pashtuns denied the unity with India they campaigned peacefully for. They've destabilised Afghanistan and Kashmir ever since the state was founded. Their military are hand in glove with the Jihadis and have poliferated nuclear weapons while similtaneously cow towing to Uncle Sam at every chance, their greencarded elite prepare their escape as they predate on the people.

Meanwhile confident multi-ethnic India, the largest democracy on the planet, tolerates it loony neighbour and rather than bending the knee to DC demands a seat at the top table.

A cynic would say the Wilsonian fondness for self determination is nothing more than the ancient Imperialist practice of divide an rule. Carve the world up into frightened small dependancies that are easily bullied by larger ones.

 

[JoePolitix]

This an absurd argument. Try and keep in mind that Kosovo is just a province, as much as Essex is. Ethnic Albanians in Serbia are a minority within the sovereign state of Serbia. Under your definition of a minority there would actually be no minorities whatsoever since usually every minority does indeed form a majority within a particular territory.

Im afraid it's impossible to take this discussion out of the ethnic minorities / separatist movements context.
Quite detached from elementary democracy, im afraid. While it is true that 'it is for the people to determine the destiny of the territory and not the territory the destiny of the people', in this case 'elementary democracy' (as you understand it) sanctions secession of an integral part of a sovereign state against the wishes of the majority in that particular state which is quite contrary to principles of democracy actually.The nation you're referring to (the Albanian nation) exercises its right to self-determination already within the boundaries of the state of Albania. Unlike the Palestinians, for instance, Albanians already have their nation-state, right on the border with Serbia (or the part of it known as Kosovo). This is why the Albanian minority in Serbia imo has no claim to an 'additional' right of self-determination.

Giving every minority (which forms a majority in a particular territorial unit) a right to self-determination gets you to a point where you can award independence to a bunch of villages in a province in any country. The criterion has to be more precise and in my opinion definitely not unconditional.

Edit to add an interesting point - the Badinter Commission, which legally oversaw the dissolution of Yugoslavia, ruled that the constituent republics of Yugoslavia might turn into states but that entities within the republics could not make similar claims. Claiming that there can be no secession from secession the Badinter Commission allowed only for territorial autonomy of those entities.

The current negotiations seem to be taking an opposing direction.

This is just a series of inapplicable comparisons (Kosovo and Essex!!!), arbitrary criteria (self determination exists only when I say so) and irrelevant considerations (what if everyone wants the right?).

In essence you are arguing that the population of Kosova should be forced to accept rule from Belgrade indefinitely regardless of what the people living there actually want. You might argue that this is a defence of democracy, I would argue it is a justification for tyranny.

 

[JoePolitix]

1.5 million dead slaughtered by the Pakistani military when a neglected Bangledesh tried to seceed.

Yes, which is why the right of Bangladeshis to independence should have been supported! Just like the right of Kosova Albanians to independence should be supported.

I think you're missing the distinction between advocated seperatism and recognising and supporting the right to suceed when the people living in a given territory so desire.

 

[nino_savatte]

This is just a series of inapplicable comparisons (Kosovo and Essex!!!), arbitrary criteria (self determination exists only when I say so) and irrelevant considerations (what if everyone wants the right?).

In essence you are arguing that the population of Kosova should be forced to accept rule from Belgrade indefinitely regardless of what the people living there actually want. You might argue that this is a defence of democracy, I would argue it is a justification for tyranny.

I suspect that this has more to do with another agenda than mere "independence for Kosovo". You've already used the word "tyranny"...what next?

 

[zoltan]

back to the original point- of course in theory, we all want to be able to do whatever we feel in pur own secure place & decide our own destiny.Thats fine, but its not going to happen is it ?

The reality is that whatever the enthicity of the Inhabitants of Kosovo ( some may call it "Tribe" when referring to the Balkans ), their past,, present & future are inextricably tied to their neighbours, like it or not. A pocket sized state, albeit with its own nominal government/currency/legislature etc, will not exist as a workable entity without either masive EU Financial & Administrative support for its entire life or the acceptance of the regional situation & the re-emergence of Balkanwide detente & tolerance - i.e. Kosovo cant exist by itself without the tacit acceptance of the Serbs - like it or not, this is the case & it wont change.Realpolitik.

Albania has neither the Stability, cash or will to take Kosovo under its wing - just as Eire, when it came down it the nitty gritty & after all the posturing, really would have shit itself if it wad given control of Northern Ireland.Cultutally & economically, the big boy ion the Balkans will be Slavic Serbia & & for the forseebale future , always will be. We cant escape that.

Look to the neighbours - Macedonia - its an uneasy existance with both K. & Serbia, but it limps along without the flammable rhetoric that eminates from Kosovo.If theres one thing that The Balkans has always prospered under, it is long term stability without coercion from the great powers - whatever their resons behind their interference.

if you give Kosovo indpendance as things stand, it would implode. Independance doesnt mean destroying the mental bridges to your neighbours, it means rebuilding those vital means of communication movement & discussion.

the theory = Fine, the reality = Hmmmm

 

[Cadmus]

This is just a series of inapplicable comparisons (Kosovo and Essex!!!), arbitrary criteria (self determination exists only when I say so) and irrelevant considerations (what if everyone wants the right?).

In essence you are arguing that the population of Kosova should be forced to accept rule from Belgrade indefinitely regardless of what the people living there actually want. You might argue that this is a defence of democracy, I would argue it is a justification for tyranny.

Not at all.

I'm quite in favour of independence of Kosovo but unlike you I'm trying to discuss problematic aspects as well rather than ignoring them. That's what a proper discussion looks like. It usually also includes refuting arguments rather than just dismissing them as irrelevant.

The self-determination criteria i pointed out is hardly arbitrary as it rests on UN law. The self-determination issue is important bcos granting self-determination rights to Kosovo Albanians has the result of creating a second Albanian state.

Do you support this? In your opinion, how many nation-states should a nation be allowed to have?

 

[dylanredefined]

Kosovo is a problem the serbs cant have it back due to past actions .Albania couldnt deal with it and serbia wouldnt be too happy if it went independent which would cause problems I'm stumped.