In what ways is Wales an oppressed country today?

[Brockway]

So all those people frm the indian sub-continent, from the Caribbean and from Eastern Europe are really from 'the provinces'?

If such is your attitude then the only provincial here is yourself.

.

Does being Asian, Caribbean or Eastern European stop you from being provincial then? Or are all those people automatically hip and metropolitan in your estimation?

 

[rhys gethin]

Have you really spent any time at all attempting to persuade anybody to engage in class politics? Frankly I think you're telling a porky on that one sonny. Though I suspect that like many a sad bastard you have a Che T shirt.

And now you mention it who the fuck is talking about an English working class? Can't you read? If you could you would have noted my mention of the Polish workers in Britain. Are they the English working class you mean? As a communist I acknowledge no nation as my own and see only one world wiode working class which nationalist vermin seek to divide in order to rule over us in the interests of capital.

As for your moronic insult regarding being an English provinical I find that laughable coming from a parochial nationalist twit such as yourself. Happily I plan on moving to London a city characterised by its lack of provincialism or indeed Englishness.

Your fatuity is beginning to show. If the working man has no country, why do you hang on like grim death to being an English yes-man? Like all posturing 'revolutionaries' all you can do at best is quote Marx: at worst you fall to vacant cursing and supporting the status quo. The English working class is composed of people working for wages (or being unemployed) in England, as you know. Do you know anything else, other than 'Rule Britannia'?

 

[neprimerimye]

Does being Asian, Caribbean or Eastern European stop you from being provincial then? Or are all those people automatically hip and metropolitan in your estimation?

Quite truthfully I'm uninterested in whether or not people are hip, how positively antediluvian of you to use such an anachronism, or metropolitan. But those peoples I mentioned are hardly likely to be characterised by English provincialism. Moreover character as outsiders in this society does mean that they are potentially more open to socialist arguments than such parochial nashies as yourself.

 

[neprimerimye]

Your fatuity is beginning to show. If the working man has no country, why do you hang on like grim death to being an English yes-man? Like all posturing 'revolutionaries' all you can do at best is quote Marx: at worst you fall to vacant cursing and supporting the status quo. The English working class is composed of people working for wages (or being unemployed) in England, as you know. Do you know anything else, other than 'Rule Britannia'?

Grow up sonny. You can no more prove I support the status quo than Karac knew my identity, which has never been concealed mark you. Would an English yes-man hold the position that the Assembly should constitute itself as a soveriegn body? Would an English yes-man argue that failing that it should have a parity of powers with the Scottish parliament? C'mon sonny argue against the views I hold not your own peurile parody of somebody I'm not.

As for the English working class being composed of all those working for wages in England that is plain silly. Many such people do not cdonsider themselves to be either English or working class. They are however workers whether they know it or not and that is of primary importance to how they live and their social revolutionary potential as a class for itself. By contrast many such people of Polish, Afro-Caribbean and other national/ethnic origins will never be English or indeed Welsh. for the good reason that such an ideintity is imaged having no purchase on reality.

See you next year.

 

[rhys gethin]

Grow up sonny. You can no more prove I support the status quo than Karac knew my identity, which has never been concealed mark you. Would an English yes-man hold the position that the Assembly should constitute itself as a soveriegn body? Would an English yes-man argue that failing that it should have a parity of powers with the Scottish parliament? C'mon sonny argue against the views I hold not your own peurile parody of somebody I'm not.

As for the English working class being composed of all those working for wages in England that is plain silly. Many such people do not cdonsider themselves to be either English or working class. They are however workers whether they know it or not and that is of primary importance to how they live and their social revolutionary potential as a class for itself. By contrast many such people of Polish, Afro-Caribbean and other national/ethnic origins will never be English or indeed Welsh. for the good reason that such an ideintity is imaged having no purchase on reality.

See you next year.

I think you are a bit of a poseur, undoubtedly, and on an ego trip certainly. The only knowledge I can have of your views - or that you can have about my class-experience - here can only be based on what information we individually choose to give, obviously - and if people are full of competitive adrenalin that won't take us far, will it?

It isn't really necessary to tell me about the difference between a a class in itself and a class for itself, nor to explain why so many workers - unlike you - dislike the associations of 'English'. The key point is that you evidently want us to accept the grotesque current political arrangements and remain, as I said, English provincials, kow-towing to the vast revolutionary experience of those who have been, until now, cushioned against reality by imperialist subsidies and never achieved anything except a happy sense of superiority. I do not think that a sensible plan.

 

[Brockway]

Quite truthfully I'm uninterested in whether or not people are hip, how positively antediluvian of you to use such an anachronism, or metropolitan. But those peoples I mentioned are hardly likely to be characterised by English provincialism. Moreover character as outsiders in this society does mean that they are potentially more open to socialist arguments than such parochial nashies as yourself.

Who mentioned English provincialism? Not me. I'm talking about provincialism per se.

So an Asian shopkeeper is going to be more open to socialism than me is he? You don't have talk some shite. And I'm not parochial.. I'm a man of the world me.

 

[zog]

...but the world stops at Western Ave.

 

[Brockway]

...but the world stops at Western Ave.

You know there's a Midlands forum now don't you...

 

[zog]

ha ha. been banished for developing a daft accent.

 

[Brockway]

ha ha. been banished for developing a daft accent.

"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..." We'll take anyone in Cardiff, it's our heritage, we're not fussy

 

[neprimerimye]

So an Asian shopkeeper is going to be more open to socialism than me is he?

Your imaginary Asian shopkeepers pet cat is more open to socialism than you soft lad.

 

[neprimerimye]

The key point is that you evidently want us to accept the grotesque current political arrangements and remain, as I said, English provincials....

Which statement you know to be a lie.

As i pointed oput before I campaigned FOR the Assembly and hold today that it should declare itself a sovereign body or at least have the self respect to demand equal rights with the Parliament in Edinburgh.

Learn to read fuck wit.

 

[Brockway]

Your imaginary Asian shopkeepers pet cat is more open to socialism than you soft lad.

Hey Mr Generalisation would a Polish immigrant whose family has had to endure being part of the Soviet Empire be more open to socialism than me as well?

Karl Marx was posh.

 

[neprimerimye]

Hey Mr Generalisation would a Polish immigrant whose family has had to endure being part of the Soviet Empire be more open to socialism than me as well?

I'll ask my girlfriend who happens to be from a Polish immigrant family, but is also posh.

 

[Brockway]

I'll ask my girlfriend who happens to be from a Polish immigrant family, but is also posh.

Cool. Ask her what she thinks of the Palace of Culture in Warsaw. Poland's great I spent a few weeks there. Good drinkers. Krakow's full of nuns.

 

[Belushi]

Cool. Ask her what she thinks of the Palace of Culture in Warsaw.

Its fucking ace, Soviet wedding cake architecture in all its glory.

Love Poland.

 

[lewislewis]

I think you now owe me a drink.

Mike Pearn.

PS Who the feck is Michael Newman? I know a guy with that name but he's non-political. Mind thats no barrier to joining the SWP these days.

Don't knock it Mike, SWP/Respect recruited 10,000 members a few months ago (they actually claimed this...). At least both of us would rather stick to our own positions rather than become a political opportunist in Galloway's coalition.

 

[Brockway]

Its fucking ace, Soviet wedding cake architecture in all its glory.

Love Poland.

I agree. When I saw it I was thinking what the fuck is that!! How come that building isn't more famous? It's supercool. Apparently the locals hate it tho because it reminds them of the Soviets.

 

[neprimerimye]

Cool. Ask her what she thinks of the Palace of Culture in Warsaw. Poland's great I spent a few weeks there. Good drinkers. Krakow's full of nuns.

Don't need to she may be posh but her family suffered under both the Nazis and Stalinists both. With the result that all the works of that pair of abominations are anathema to her.

I guess to really believe in nationalism one must drink a fair bit.

 

[neprimerimye]

Don't knock it Mike, SWP/Respect recruited 10,000 members a few months ago (they actually claimed this...). At least both of us would rather stick to our own positions rather than become a political opportunist in Galloway's coalition.

Strange really but my politics these days have more in common with those of the SWP when founded than the SWP itself has.

 

[Brockway]

I guess to really believe in nationalism one must drink a fair bit.

You wouldn't deny the Poles the right to run their own country would you? I wouldn't. If that's Nationalism then I'm a Nationalist.

 

[zog]

Strange really but my politics these days have more in common with those of the SWP when founded than the SWP itself has.

Does that mean that 2 of you sit in a pub?

 

[neprimerimye]

You wouldn't deny the Poles the right to run their own country would you? I wouldn't. If that's Nationalism then I'm a Nationalist.

I wouldn't deny any nation the right to self determination. But when there is no positive gain for that nation I would not advocate the formation of an independent state either.

In relation to Wales, a nation that cannot be convincingly shown to be oppresed, this means that I support the Assembly assuming the rights of a constituient body and acting as the sovereign power. It also means opposing any demands for an independent state at present as such a state cannot benefit either the nation as a whole or the working classes.

As for poland the positions historically adopted by revolutionary communists can be ttraced in the writings of Marx, Luxemburg, Lenin and, in relation to the situation after 1945, in the works of Cliff and Harman. it is always a position of support for national where the nation is oppressed by another and it is of benefit the working masses.

The nation itself meaning nothing to Marxism as it is a transitory social phenoeman that was born with capitalism and will die with that noxious system.

 

[neprimerimye]

Does that mean that 2 of you sit in a pub?

Yeah taking the piss out of idiots such as you.

 

[zog]

Yeah taking the piss out of idiots such as you.

splitter!

 

[neprimerimye]

splitter!

Been there, done that, got the t shirt.

 

[nwnm]

If your not Michael Newman then i apolgise

good god! He's not Mike Newman. He moved to London donkey's years ago. He left Militant over their attitude to Labour Party Black Sections, and joined the SWP after a lot of discussions over the nature of Russia, the Labour party, etc. Remember him well....

 

[neprimerimye]

good god! He's not Mike Newman. He moved to London donkey's years ago. He left Militant over their attitude to Labour Party Black Sections, and joined the SWP after a lot of discussions over the nature of Russia, the Labour party, etc. Remember him well....

Proving yet again that Nwnm's claim not to read my posts is a lie.