In what ways is Wales an oppressed country today?

[la ressistance]

we have to put up with bbc 2W instead of good television

 

[zog]

Just think Satellite City or the Charlotte Church show to feel what real cultural oppression is.

 

[Belushi]

Doesn't Cymraeg also mean 'foreigner'?

It means 'Compatriot' I believe.

Re Welsh, in his History of Wales John Davies argues that meaning of its root was more that of a Romanised native of the Empire, rather than foreigner.

 

[Brockway]

we have to put up with bbc 2W instead of good television

Wales is practically invisible in British culture. Apart from Huw Edwards reading the news from an autocue how are we represented on "British" TV for example?

So Welsh TV is absolutely necessary. But you're right it is diabolical. There are plenty of talented people in the Welsh broadcasting industry but the ones who commission programmes for the Beeb and S4C have decided that their target audience is an 87 year old farmer from Carmarthen. Until that changes and they develop the balls to embrace new ideas we're stuck with it.

Welsh telly is more depressing than oppressing.

 

[rhys gethin]

Sorry, but what utter rubbish.

Welsh people were not chained and dragged half way accross the world to work as slaves. They are more likely to go to college than prison; the british police force are no more likely to beat up and frame them than they are English people; As far as I can remember there was no segregation of the Welsh in this century; You never had to use different toilets from the English....

The above statement makes a mockery of Welsh nationalism. If you sincerely believe that the state of the Welsh nation is comparable to blacks in the USA then you really need to get a grip.

I see you have difficulty with tenses. I said nothing about the past but about the state of mind of many people NOW. You seem, on the face of it, to exemplify that.

 

[rhys gethin]

It means 'Compatriot' I believe.

Re Welsh, in his History of Wales John Davies argues that meaning of its root was more that of a Romanised native of the Empire, rather than foreigner.

Or, of course, 'slave'.

 

[zog]

but for my money it remains oppressed in exactly the same way that the Black People in the States are oppressed

are you trying to say that Wales today is as oppressed as black people in the US are today?

Tense doesn't come into it. still more black people in the US today go to gaol rather than college. when the english can bring that sort of oppression to Wales then you can really start comparing.

 

[Belushi]

Or, of course, 'slave'.

No, I dont think that was its meaning.

 

[Gavin Bl]

It means 'Compatriot' I believe.

Re Welsh, in his History of Wales John Davies argues that meaning of its root was more that of a Romanised native of the Empire, rather than foreigner.

Whatever the meaning, I have heard 'outsider', apparently the WAL bit is the same in Cornwall and Walloon.

 

[rhys gethin]

That comparison is a bit rich, rhys! Slavery, segregation, and the rest of the incredibly violent history of black oppression doesn't really compare with what has happened here, and especiallywith what's happening now..

As I've just said, I didn't say the experience was the same, obviously.
Have your ever read anything about the Brád (bloody thing won't print a to bach) y Llyfrau Gleision'? The English Education Report put down the Language, as did Times editorials. Everybody makes out that there was serious opposition to that, but in fact it caused Blairlike grovelling, and the actual result was that no-one at the relevant time demanded that compulsory education be in the language spoken by the majority, Cymraeg; the famous 'Welsh Not' was not imposed by the Government but was supported by parents only to happy to have their children turn monoglot English and 'get on' as quickly as possible. I remember the loathesome George Thomas (he proposed to an Auntie of mine, incredibly enough), who hated us and himself, and some of the other Cymraeg-hating filth who used to dominate the LP in the South East. On the Family History Boards, even lately, I've been in contact with a weirdo Gog who agrees with the struttingbuggers that it is 'rude' to talk his own language in his own country when the foreign Officer Class are present. And why, come to that, don't YOU know what Cymro, Cymry and Cymraeg mean? This is pretty sick stuff, which is why Fanon's relevant.

I dunno - voting Labour is a legacy of the rich history of class struggle in Wales (it is, of course, mistaken, but it can be understood historically). Should those who fought to organise workers in Wales in the past be dismissed also as self-hating uncle Toms? I'm not sure what point you're making here, but if you're implying that the history of the labour movement in wales is somehow tainted by its links with an English party then you're talking out of your hat..

No - what is disgusting is those who allow themselves to be instructed by English comrades with their rich tradition of wet defeatism. Except during the time of the Spanish War, 'internationalism' with us almost always means servility to English attitudes and ideas - and, of course, defeat.

As with the slavery stuff - to compare revolutionary algeria with present-day wales is very strange indeed. I guess you're talking about the pyschological theory of colonial oppression Fanon puts forward, but even so, out of the context of the kind of violence suffered by the algerians under French rule, the comparison is a bit empty, I think.

Since I didn't make the comparison, I can't comment. I just said Fanon's relevant: what is is regarded as normal, and the colonised always fight one another as an avoidance behaviour to avoid fighting the colonialist. I think that is perhaps as relevant as rugby to the question.

 

[Belushi]

Whatever the meaning, I have heard 'outsider', apparently the WAL bit is the same in Cornwall and Walloon.

Yes, thats my point, the outsider.foreigner thing is a bit of a simplification of a term that was actually more complex.

The root can also be seen in terms like Wallachia, Vlach etc.

 

[la ressistance]

Wales is practically invisible in British culture. Apart from Huw Edwards reading the news from an autocue how are we represented on "British" TV for example?

So Welsh TV is absolutely necessary. But you're right it is diabolical. There are plenty of talented people in the Welsh broadcasting industry but the ones who commission programmes for the Beeb and S4C have decided that their target audience is an 87 year old farmer from Carmarthen. Until that changes and they develop the balls to embrace new ideas we're stuck with it.

Welsh telly is more depressing than oppressing.

your right on all points there.i've had many an argument with bbc wales people and s4c people that they should be making quality tv in wales,not about wales.

dereks welsh weather,high hopes,continuous coverage of the fucking urdd!!


shit english tv gets broadcast nationally (my family,thermoman) shit welsh tv (satelite city ,high hopes) gets broadcast in wales.

welsh programmes need to compete on an international stage for it to gain recognition (doctor who,babinogs)

Derecks welsh weather and jamie owens trips around wales in a fucking boat will never compete on an international stage as there shite.

 

[llantwit]

As I've just said, I didn't say the experience was the same, obviously.

No but you implied close similarities - which is what I thought was a bit misguided.

Have your ever read anything about the Brád (bloody thing won't print a to bach) y Llyfrau Gleision'? The English Education Report put down the Language, as did Times editorials. Everybody makes out that there was serious opposition to that, but in fact it caused Blairlike grovelling, and the actual result was that no-one at the relevant time demanded that compulsory education be in the language spoken by the majority, Cymraeg; the famous 'Welsh Not' was not imposed by the Government but was supported by parents only to happy to have their children turn monoglot English and 'get on' as quickly as possible.

And that was a terrible injustice, agreed.

And why, come to that, don't YOU know what Cymro, Cymry and Cymraeg mean? This is pretty sick stuff, which is why Fanon's relevant.

Everybody knows why I don't know the meaning of the word, and nobody's claiming what happened to the Welsh language is a good thing. Seriously.

No - what is disgusting is those who allow themselves to be instructed by English comrades with their rich tradition of wet defeatism. Except during the time of the Spanish War, 'internationalism' with us almost always means servility to English attitudes and ideas - and, of course, defeat.

Again, nobody's saying the suppression of the language was a good thing mate, and I'm sure spineless Labour Party lackeys played their part.

Since I didn't make the comparison, I can't comment. I just said Fanon's relevant: what is is regarded as normal, and the colonised always fight one another as an avoidance behaviour to avoid fighting the colonialist. I think that is perhaps as relevant as rugby to the question.

Yeah, but, again, you implied the comparison with Algeria when you invoked Fanon, which is why I made the point I did.

I have a question - and I'm surprised Udo hasn't been along yet to put it. Do you think that a welsh worker has more in comon with an English worker than a welsh boss?
That's at the heart of my unease about expending my (dwindling ) political energy on the nationalist cause, personally. There's only so much llantwitty political goodness to go around, and I'd rather devote my time to class-centred politics than territorial/national identity politics.

 

[nwnm]

yep welsh workers have more in common with english (spanish, south american, chinese, African etc etc) workers than they do with welsh bosses. What was it Marx wrote in the Communist manifesto - "The workers of the world they have no country"

 

[Brockway]

yep welsh workers have more in common with english (spanish, south american, chinese, African etc etc) workers than they do with welsh bosses. What was it Marx wrote in the Communist manifesto - "The workers of the world they have no country"

And he'd know all about that of course being a bourgeois intellectual...

Would an English Jewish worker have more in common with a Ugandan worker or an English Jewish businessman?

Would a ginger-haired Scottish worker who likes punk music and the films of Martin Scorcese have more in common with a Ugandan worker or a ginger-haired Scottish businessman who likes punk music and the films of Martin Scorcese.

People are defined by all sorts of things not just class - they can be cultural, religious or psychological. Marx is a one-eyed bourgeois intellectual.

 

[ICB]

Brockway - you get the English taking the piss out of the English all the time, usually out of some different aspect from their own e.g North vs South, yokels in SW, working class vs middle class, etc. but there's quite a lot of self-targetted humour amongst some of the post-alternative comedy lot. Of course this happens in Wales too, south coast vs gog, etc. Not being too up ourselves and prone to blowing our own trumpets in an hilariously unashamed fashion like the Americans is rather a nice British trait, not just an English one.

we have to put up with bbc 2W instead of good television

the only oppression we face is the shite they put on BBC Wales and S4C.

I was at a presentation by Ofcom recently where the presenter was talking about the problems with English broadcast signals being available across the border and it diluting the coherence of cultural programming or some such, with installers often pointing aerials at those transmitters as a matter of course without consulting their customers.

There was some rather amusing debate about this and just about everyone in the audience (representing every local authority in Wales) either said how great they thought it was that they could pick up English signals and that every aerial in their street was deliberately pointed that way, or how annoying it was that they couldn't get a terrestrial English signal. It was one of those cross-purposes sort of discussions. What was broadly agreed was the point made here by la ressistance and brockway that unless the programmes are well made and interesting people won't want to watch them. Welsh soap operas and never ending Eisteddfod are just dire. There are similar issues with the rather twee, hackneyed and dumbed down presentation of Welsh history both in the media and literature generally.

 

[Brockway]

Brockway - you get the English taking the piss out of the English all the time, usually out of some different aspect from their own e.g North vs South, yokels in SW, working class vs middle class, etc. but there's quite a lot of self-targetted humour amongst some of the post-alternative comedy lot. Of course this happens in Wales too, south coast vs gog, etc. Not being too up ourselves and prone to blowing our own trumpets in an hilariously unashamed fashion like the Americans is rather a nice British trait, not just an English one.
.

You don't get English comedians taking the piss out of England per se. You don't get England reduced to a few stereotypical characteristics. There is no English equivalent of Taffy, Jock or Paddy. You're talking about regionalism. And quite frankly if the English want to be rude about other parts of England it's their business. But we aren't a region of England we are a different people, so it's racist. But you touched on something there - Wales is seen as a region more than a country by a lot of English people.

I don't think there is any such thing as a British trait. British is a colonial construct. Great Britain means greater England and always has done.

 

[llantwit]

I think we should all chill out and have a mince pie.

 

[bendeus]

You don't get English comedians taking the piss out of England per se. You don't get England reduced to a few stereotypical characteristics. There is no English equivalent of Taffy, Jock or Paddy. You're talking about regionalism. And quite frankly if the English want to be rude about other parts of England it's their business. But we aren't a region of England we are a different people, so it's racist. But you touched on something there - Wales is seen as a region more than a country by a lot of English people.

If you dig back on some of the U75 Wales/England threads of the past you'll find exactly that: an attitude that Wales is a region only, and an uppity one that should know its place at that. Some of the opinions espoused in such threads on these 'left wing' boards are frankly shocking, and evidence enough of a prevailing attitude of superiority and condescension towards Wales and the Welsh.

In the light of this, a degree of cultural resistance based on or around a sense of national identity is understandable and, IMO, to be encouraged.

 

[rhys gethin]

Yeah, but, again, you implied the comparison with Algeria when you invoked Fanon, which is why I made the point I did..

My point is that past oppression remains in the heads of the living and effects their behaviour, just as people don't just forget being abused as children, even if they pretend to (and no, I don't think' 'the English' abused our children, before someone starts another hare). All oppressed peoples need to face the nature of their past oppression before they can put it behind them.

I have a question - and I'm surprised Udo hasn't been along yet to put it. Do you think that a welsh worker has more in comon with an English worker than a welsh boss?.

In my view, yes - as long as they experience themselves as 'Welsh workers' and not as inadequate imitations of English ones. Otherwise they have more in common psychologicallywith 'house niggers' serving masters on a plantation.

That's at the heart of my unease about expending my (dwindling ) political energy on the nationalist cause, personally. There's only so much llantwitty political goodness to go around, and I'd rather devote my time to class-centred politics than territorial/national identity politics.

I've spent a fair bit of time in class-centred politics - which has all to often involved the demand that I cease to be myself with my own concerns and pretend to be some other person from somewhere else (bit like the women back in early 'sixties politics, I should think, except I never made tea). Everything personal to me was 'nationalism', whereas they just had wide (English) interests I think that once we start acting in terms of our own class experience within a revival of national self-respect, we shall be enormously more effective ( and, incidentally, stop picking on lonely Englishmen in pubs, as someone complained we did earlier).

 

[Gavin Bl]

I think we should all chill out and have a mince pie.

you'll have Bara Brith and like it, you sell-out!

 

[llantwit]

My point is that past oppression remains in the heads of the living and effects their behaviour, just as people don't just forget being abused as children, even if they pretend to (and no, I don't think' 'the English' abused our children, before someone starts another hare). All oppressed peoples need to face the nature of their past oppression before they can put it behind them.
In my view, yes - as long as they experience themselves as 'Welsh workers' and not as inadequate imitations of English ones. Otherwise they have more in common psychologicallywith 'house niggers' serving masters on a plantation.
I've spent a fair bit of time in class-centred politics - which has all to often involved the demand that I cease to be myself with my own concerns and pretend to be some other person from somewhere else (bit like the women back in early 'sixties politics, I should think, except I never made tea). Everything personal to me was 'nationalism', whereas they just had wide (English) interests I think that once we start acting in terms of our own class experience within a revival of national self-respect, we shall be enormously more effective ( and, incidentally, stop picking on lonely Englishmen in pubs, as someone complained we did earlier).

Cool. Thanks for that answer, I appreciate it. Agreed all round.

 

[lewislewis]

Class-politics always attracted me , and I actually attended three SWP meetings during the late 90's/early 00's, but the kind of things discussed during those meetings were so abstract and removed from what people really think I quickly lost interest, and sadly gained much disdain for the SWP. I've tarred all similar sects with the same brush because although the people have good intentions they are all infighting against each other when they're all meant to be on the same side, and it was just really sad and boring.

 

[Brockway]

I think we should all chill out and have a mince pie.

You are so off my Christmas card list.

 

[mtbskalover]

bit late to this,
but according to my welsh mates on wednesday, its all my fault wales is oppressed by the english. im english btw...

so blame me

 

[ICB]

You don't get English comedians taking the piss out of England per se. You don't get England reduced to a few stereotypical characteristics. There is no English equivalent of Taffy, Jock or Paddy. You're talking about regionalism. And quite frankly if the English want to be rude about other parts of England it's their business. But we aren't a region of England we are a different people, so it's racist. But you touched on something there - Wales is seen as a region more than a country by a lot of English people.

I don't think there is any such thing as a British trait. British is a colonial construct. Great Britain means greater England and always has done.

And if the Welsh want to take the piss out of other parts of Wales is that their business too or are the English allowed to find it amusing? Plenty of regionalism about both sides of the border. I didn't say Wales was a region of England, do you think I'm a yank or summat? Clearly its a country in the UK of GB and NI.

England is an arbitrary construct as well, as is Wales and any other idea of country or nation, racial or ethnic identity, etc. "England" covers a lot of diversity, which is why people don't really take the piss out of it as a whole, other than in terms of rather outdated ideas about stiff upper lip, sexual repression, etc. which are just as silly as the self-congratulatory ones about freedom of speech, tolerance, etc.

Some people identify with British rather than English because of a shared language, culture, etc., or because they were part of a wider colonial context and saw Britain as the motherland that represented certain values, aspirations and opportunities that they wanted to be part of when they came here. Others don't, we all have different perceptions of history and culture and our place in it, or lack of. There's not really a right and wrong about it as far as I can see provided we accept others' ideas can and will be different from our own. It's when we start saying "you should call yourself/think of yourself as xyz" or that it starts getting iffy. Identity politics are important and interesting to some people, irrelevant and tedious to others.

If you dig back on some of the U75 Wales/England threads of the past you'll find exactly that: an attitude that Wales is a region only, and an uppity one that should know its place at that. Some of the opinions espoused in such threads on these 'left wing' boards are frankly shocking, and evidence enough of a prevailing attitude of superiority and condescension towards Wales and the Welsh.

Some people are just wrong/stupid, others are on a mission to get a reaction. Cross-border trolls.

In the light of this, a degree of cultural resistance based on or around a sense of national identity is understandable and, IMO, to be encouraged.

Understandable certainly, don't really have a view on whether it should be encouraged or discouraged, clearly it's going to happen, sometimes it will be enlightening, interesting and good-humoured, other times it will be more strident and angry. I'd suggest the latter is more likely to be counter-productive and possibly backfire than the former. I tend to prefer life when everyone tries to get on rather than pick fights.

 

[Brockway]

And if the Welsh want to take the piss out of other parts of Wales is that their business too or are the English allowed to find it amusing? Plenty of regionalism about both sides of the border. I didn't say Wales was a region of England, do you think I'm a yank or summat? Clearly its a country in the UK of GB and NI.

England is an arbitrary construct as well, as is Wales and any other idea of country or nation, racial or ethnic identity, etc. "England" covers a lot of diversity, which is why people don't really take the piss out of it as a whole, other than in terms of rather outdated ideas about stiff upper lip, sexual repression, etc. which are just as silly as the self-congratulatory ones about freedom of speech, tolerance, etc.

Some people identify with British rather than English because of a shared language, culture, etc., or because they were part of a wider colonial context and saw Britain as the motherland that represented certain values, aspirations and opportunities that they wanted to be part of when they came here. Others don't, we all have different perceptions of history and culture and our place in it, or lack of. There's not really a right and wrong about it as far as I can see provided we accept others' ideas can and will be different from our own. It's when we start saying "you should call yourself/think of yourself as xyz" or that it starts getting iffy. Identity politics are important and interesting to some people, irrelevant and tedious to others.

Of course Welsh people can take the piss out of each other - that's our business just as it is theirs (like I said). But when the English reduce Welsh people to stereotypical characteristics that's racist. Wales is an area of land ruled by London - it's an English colony. We won't be a proper country until we rule ourselves.

Most older people were socilaized into having a British identity mainly as a result of two world wars. Some people get positively dewy eyed about it. Watch propaganda films from WW2 Britain mysteriously gets renamed England. Go further back and you find that Welsh schoolchildren were forced to speak English instead of their mother tongue. Colonization and cultural imperialism are something the Welsh have had to put up with for far too long.

Do those people in England who identify themselves as British see themselves as partially Welsh then? I doubt it. The common language you refer to is the one which has been forced upon us. Do the common values include closing down industry in the Valleys and replacing it with feck all? British as you see it is just English from where I'm standing. Great Britain equals greater England is as true today as it has always been.

Your vision of a benevolent England as some motherland inviting the people it exploited and colonised to come over and share the wealth is frankly ludicrous.

Of course there is a right and wrong. England colonised the Welsh - that's wrong. Until they stop doing so then Welsh people have every right to be pissed off (if they choose to be).

 

[Karac]

OK - English oppression obviously gets the blood boiling with a lot of folk on the Cymru boards. Myself the nationalism thing has never really got me going. So I thought I'd invite yous all to educate me, as I really don't think I know the facts. I really am willing to be persuaded on this, this isn't a wind-up or anything.
So, here goes:
How is Wales oppressed today? What are the material conditions of colonial oppression in our country today and in what ways would a free Wales make these better

Why is it Nationalism though?
All the time on the tv its "British troops" hassle some Iraqis,Afghanis etc.
Bomb the fuck out of these countries
Gordon Brown rants on about "British values"-making immigrants learn english-making them do tests
A huge undercurrent of anti-Islamic hatred
Not Nationalism-oh no
The main problem is British Nationalism

 

[Karac]

"nationalism Is in The Eye Of The Observer"

 

[Karac]

All parties in the UK are nationalist-Tories,Labour,libdems,Respec-its just their nation is slightly larger than others