In redundancy consultation

Discussion in 'education & employment' started by Mumbles274, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. Mumbles274

    Mumbles274 running from law and the press and the parents

    Just on my way home from the first meeting where 10 Team Leaders have been told we are being culled to 5.

    Not really sure how i feel right now. Had union in the meeting so think I've got a fair grasp of the process and will be supported.

    Don't think id make the 5 and don't think the chance of redeployment is going to be good for me so am thinking of trying to negotiate a decent voluntary payout.

    There is also some other stuff going on with work that ill say more about at some point.. Complaints about discrimination on the grounds of my mental health in short.

    Strange week or so :rolleyes:
  2. equationgirl

    equationgirl Respect my existence or expect my resistance

    Has the process been explained fully, for example are they going to pool all the team leaders and keep the highest scorers, or make everyone apply for the available positions?

    Do not attend any meetings without someone going with you, union or otherwise.

    Best of luck.
  3. Mumbles274

    Mumbles274 running from law and the press and the parents

    It will be an interview and selection process. We sont have to apply per se and other than the JD we dont know what criteria they are selecting on.

    Union will be at meetings yes. Will also be talking to them about options in the meantime.
    equationgirl and crossthebreeze like this.
  4. crossthebreeze

    crossthebreeze Well-Known Member

    Solidarity and best of luck
    Mumbles274 likes this.
  5. cupid_stunt

    cupid_stunt Dyslexic King Cnut the Great.

    Sorry to hear this, Mumbles274, especially on top of everything else you guys have had going on.

    Wishing you the best possible outcome.
    Mumbles274 likes this.
  6. wayward bob

    wayward bob i ate all your bees

    jeez that really is a shit week. strength to you x
    Mumbles274 likes this.
  7. Mumbles274

    Mumbles274 running from law and the press and the parents

    I'm trying to see it as a positive, it may just be the push I need to get out of a toxic job. The cuts to funding make it harder and harder to actually do a good job, the managers are always clueless.. Just like I would be if I went one or two levels up! None of which is going to get better.

    The annoying thing is i have very little formal qualifications that i can take elsewhere so any new job is likely to involve a big drop in pay and even if I found a relatively comparable wage, that would be in London so eaten up by expensive season ticket. I could try to be one of those clueless higher level managers!!!

    The main worry is the uncertainty about paying the bills. I've not had a pay rise in years as it is so have been feeling the pinch like lots of us already. There aren't many things I can cut back on that I haven't already, so a big drop in pay worries me as debt just spirals so quickly.
    ska invita and ice-is-forming like this.
  8. StoneRoad

    StoneRoad heckling from the back!

    :solidarity fist bump: Mumbles274 - that is a really horrible state of affairs. (Seems to be that time of year again)
    Hope you / union can negotiate a good deal & what you want happens.
    Best wishes.
    Mumbles274 likes this.
  9. weltweit

    weltweit Well-Known Member

    Sorry to read this Mumbles274, redundancies are always difficult even if you don't get selected yourself. Bear in mind that a decent payout is only really useful if you manage to get another job quickly, if not the DWP tend to make you spend it before they will give you benefits.
    Mumbles274 likes this.
  10. Miss-Shelf

    Miss-Shelf I've looked at life from both sides now

    Solidarity too ftom me. hope it is a doorway into better things. I get the worry about debt and hope there are ways through it that are not too painful
    Mumbles274 likes this.
  11. farmerbarleymow

    farmerbarleymow Sweetcorn, Seagulls and Wasps are Brilliant!

    Best of luck with this Mumbles274 - this is the last thing you need on top of the other issues you've been dealing with.
    Miss-Shelf and Mumbles274 like this.
  12. Mumbles274

    Mumbles274 running from law and the press and the parents

    I mentioned I have some other stuff going on, I'll try try to summarise it!

    I've had quite a lot of time off work due to stress at work/ anxiety and depression. Last year our contract was TUPE'd and at that time it came after serveral months, if not years of a complete lack of support at work. When we TUPE'd we got told our jobs were in consultation ( they then retracted this) and I found it all too much and was signed off work. At that point the new HR and the ops manager met with me and reassured me they woukldn't be sacking me for being unwell ( threats I had had), they told me I had options, such as an office move, reduced duties etc. When I came back from sick I was told I was going to be placed under reasonable adjustments for 6 months, no options, no choice for me. I was also told I would have this in writing and would have monthly review with HR

    6 weeks later after chasing it up I finally got the letter. Not long after that I wrote an email to the new area manager complaining about HR, we had a new hub managher moved into my office, the job wasn't advertised and its a job I've asked about acting up in and made known I was interested in, I made it clear I felt I had been hindered in my career and not afforded the correct oppurtinuty and also that HR were not supporting me as agreed and I had no say or control in matters as I did not want to be on RA anymore. The outcome of that was HR came and met with me and basically bollocked me for sending the email saying how dissappointed they all were in me! I was told I would stay on RA for the full 6 months.

    Throughout this I have also been trying to engage my managers in making positive changes to working practices, I am vocal aboput this and havre implemented and developed various systems that staff use in their day to day work. I was told I couldl train the teams across the area in these things, that I would be part of developement teams etc, none of which happened.

    Towards the back end of last year I suffered a chest infection, my mood suffered and I had a bit of a breakdown. Luckily quite shortlived, I increased my therapy sessions to weekly, upped my meds and got back to work.

    With this my absence levels are through the roof, we use some scoring method to monitor it, I had a check in meeting with a manager that was covering my caseload and the absence issue was left to be dealt with by my line manager.

    Christmas came and went, my manager kept on saying 'we need to catch up'm, he had also said my absence would be dealt with 'informally' but never actually booked time to see me, whilst he did meet with other staff.Things came to a head one day when I finally met with him and I challenged him about this all. I complained that my absence was not being dealt with and that the ideas and attempts to improve things were being ignored, that there was a culture of bullying that had not been resolved and it was not acceptable. He told me to put it in an email, so I did. I made a formal complaint.

    Eventually, it took over 2 weeks some one from HR contacted me to find out more, deal with the 2 apsects I had raised. Namely, dealing with my high absence and the issue of bullying and how I am not lsitened to or used for my expereince and abilities.

    HR said they my manager would be arranging the absence meeting and the other issues were to be raised with the Ops manager for him to discuss with with.

    As of my hospital visit last week, neither had happened still. So when I spoke to my manager this week to say I was gpoing to be off sick I ripped into him again, again he saud piut it in an email, which I did. I also then phoned HR to raise it with whoever I could speak to and basically made a big noise about it. I have speficically complained about the ops and area manager for discriminating against me. I have also complained about a specific HR manager who gave some managers' absense training in among all this where she was going to name all the poeople with poor absence records in a training event until it got shut down by some of the other managers there. Needless to say I wrote an email of complaint about that to the area manager, who I was advised by someone else in HR would be feeding back to me. That hasn't happened either.

    Then Tuesday, after I kick up a huge stink about all this I get the consultation email to my personal email address from the HR person I complained about, on behalf of the ops manager I have complained about.

    On thursday the HR person 'invited' me to a meeting with them both to discuss my concerns, I politley refused and CC'd someone else at HR
    At the meeting yesterday she spoke to me afterwards to ask if i wanted to speak to her, again I politlely refused.

    Needless to say, even if I did want to go for one of these 5 roles, and Im not sure if I do or don't. I don't think I have a chance of being treated equally or fairly but do I push to fight them or just try to take my money and run?

    I hope that is a followable time line of stuff, there is always a lot more in the detail. I'll be putting all this in my case form to the union, I've discussed it with the steward that was at the meeting yesterday and as you can imagine she doesn't think it sounds good at all!!!
  13. Lupa

    Lupa It's all about the butter

    Ah feck. You're having a tough week.
    And this on top. you say it's a toxic work environment and if they give you a decent redundancy package then maybe it is the best thing?

    On another note....
    Hope you two are both feeling a lot better than last week..

    Eta...sorry...I had not read your last post when I posted
    cupid_stunt and Mumbles274 like this.
  14. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Good luck Mumbles274

    Hope there's money to take and run with
  15. Mumbles274

    Mumbles274 running from law and the press and the parents

    We both feel much better :)
    Miss-Shelf, Sue, cupid_stunt and 3 others like this.
  16. cupid_stunt

    cupid_stunt Dyslexic King Cnut the Great.

    That's always the worst fear IME, having resigned from jobs without another lined-up (too many times :D), and being made redundant once, that was the worst, as it wasn't my choice, I liked that job & it was a good earner, didn't see it coming at all, so it was a fucking shock. The business was sold to its only competitor in the area, the cuts started within a week.

    On the other hand, we had just taken out a mortgage and a massive loan, but had 'redundancy insurance' on them both, and they paid out in full just on my redundancy & despite my ex working f/t, so that made a big different.

    I don't know your set-up, but if you are buying a place, got any loans or credit card debts, just check any insurance you have on them. :thumbs:

    I also don't know your work experience, but if you find yourself looking for work, try to stay positive & think out of the box - I've tended to take any old job as a temporarily situation, and largely enjoyed the experiences, even if the money was shit, it was better than nothing. Plus when the right job jumps up & hits you in the face, it looks good on the CV that you kept busy until the right thing came up. I am sure I didn't really need to type that, although if the head is a bit all over the place, may be it was handy reading it.

    I am unemployable in the sector where most my experience has been, because all the small companies have been taken over by corporate giants, and I can't handle working for them, so I fell into self-employment, and just wished I had done it before.

    Just throwing it out as a thought, I know a lot of self-employed people around here doing very nicely out of offering some of the most basic services, from gutter clearing, lawn mowing, dog walking, a 'pets to vets' service, 'handy man', shopping, cleaning, and ironing services, etc. - all clearing £100+++ a day. For example, the dog walker tends to charge £10 ph, but regularly takes 4-6 dogs for walkies at the same time, factor in the time picking-up & dropping off the different dogs & the van's running costs, she's on north of £20.00. It's easier enough, in the south-east, to find clients - social media, flyering, and even the old fashioned cards in shop windows, will soon get the calls coming in.

    As I say, just a thought, never rule anything out, keep an open mind, stay positive, think out of the box, and IME that opens up a wider range of options in time, until 'the one' happens.

    I hope that makes sense, wee bit stoned TBH. :oops:
  17. cupid_stunt

    cupid_stunt Dyslexic King Cnut the Great.

    First, sorry to read all that. :(

    Secondly, reading what I have, I would be looking to get the hell out on the best terms as possible, and start afresh, but that's me, only you can answer that question for yourself.
  18. StoneRoad

    StoneRoad heckling from the back!

    Mumbles, I certainly can't "like" that briefing about your situation post, but it certainly sounds like rampant bullying and a toxic workplace management "system".
    If you can get a decent pay-off then maybe leaving would be a better option - redundancy and looking for work are stressful processes, but are surely better than the status quo. (e2a - cupid_stunt makes some good points !)
    Glad to hear that your joint health situation is better ...
    cupid_stunt likes this.
  19. Mumbles274

    Mumbles274 running from law and the press and the parents

    Yeah, I want out
    spitfire and cupid_stunt like this.
  20. MickiQ

    MickiQ Well-Known Member

    If you apply for one of these jobs and don't get it or don't even apply then you're not automatically jobless they have to go through the process of making you redundant and you can spin this out for a bit if you decide you want to appeal which shouldn't affect any payment you're entitled to receive but make sure it's compulsory. The last time I was made redundant in 2015 the rules were you could claim JSA straightaway if it was compulsory but you had to wait if it was voluntary, I suspect the rules have changed for the worse under UC but its worth checking.
    I've been made redundant three times now and it is worrying but it isn't the end of the world.
    Mumbles274 likes this.
  21. Mumbles274

    Mumbles274 running from law and the press and the parents

    A careers advisor friend came round today and did my CV for me. I also applied for a job :) I can't see I stand a chance of being selected and will potentially make that case that they can not be fair towards me with what else has gone on, It might give me more negotiating power with regard to voluntary redundancy amounts? If I wasn't selected my feeling would be that I would win any appeal about that on grounds of discrimination, they will know that I'm sure?

    I've got my case form to complete for the Union tomorrow which will take a long time. When I'm at work next week I'll print off all my line mangement notes and complaint emails. I'm sure they willl advise me on the best course of action with the help from their lawyers, they know how to make agenicies like this shit themselves!

    Thanks for all they replies. We still have all of lamb1979's window cleaning gear so there is always an option to try to earn some money with that!! Not ideal but if it was something to keep cash flowing while I find more suitable work I don't mind that. :thumbs:
  22. MickiQ

    MickiQ Well-Known Member

    First and foremost get advice from the Union and their solicitors, that's what you pay your subs for.
    I was a Union Rep a few years ago and I occasionally had dealing with Unions solicitors, they're not Perry Mason but they knew their stuff and were genuinely interested in helping so feel confident about talking to them.
    Everything else is my two pennies worth and should be treated as such.
    Again unless the rules have changed redundancy is covered by a statutory formula which is/was something like half a weeks pay for every year of service up to age 21 or 22, a week for every year up to about age 42 and a week and a half for every year above that age. There is a fixed maximum figure so the maximum amount you can get on statutory is about £10K if you've been there for ages and usually a lot less. They also have to pay you your notice period as well and for un-taken holidays on a pro rata basis.
    Though they don't have to, lots of places pay enhanced terms which usually means lifting the statutory maximum figure and paying you your actual pay often capped at equivalent to a years pay so find out what is on offer in that regard.
    This is what I got, 56 years old and 25 years service I walked out with a full years pay.
    Actually fuck walking out, I left skipping and laughing with a song in my heart.
    Since its subject to statutory rules I don't think playing the discrimination card will get you any more money but it might increase your chance of keeping your job if that is what you want but be warned there are ways of "adjusting" these interviews it will do you no good it you get moved up from rated 10th to rated 6th if there are still only 5 jobs.
    But talk to the solicitors like I said all the Union ones I've met have been great.
  23. Puddy_Tat

    Puddy_Tat meh


    a few disconnected thoughts -

    Any organisation should have a process for deciding who to make redundant. They can't just say 'we have decided to make you, you and you redundant'. Bit more on CAB website here.

    As far as I'm aware, they can use sick leave as one criteria, although if it's a long term health condition as defined in equalities law (i.e. something lasting over a year) then they could be in trouble.

    There's no obligation to offer voluntary redundancy, or to offer enhanced terms for voluntary redundancy. Some private income protection insurance plans will rule out paying if you take voluntary, rather than compulsory redundancy, so if you want out, it may be better to go through the motions but not try too hard, rather than volunteer.

    Also, some organisations are cunty enough to try it on with dodgy disciplinaries as soon as anyone volunteers for redundancy, or to try and force them in to a situation where they are more likely to resign (which will save them the redundancy pay) And if you do volunteer but don't get it (one place I worked they usually got more people volunteering to go than they actually wanted to get rid of) life can get a bit uncomfortable.

    My understanding (albeit before universal credit happened) is that the dole doesn't care whether it's voluntary or compulsory redundancy (I did enquire when redundancy was possible, but that was a while ago now) But they will only pay out from the time after employment ends, so if you get pay in lieu of notice as well as redundancy pay, then your claim would start at the end of the notice period not immediately after the last day you actually work.

    This (from CAB) mentions the issue of voluntary redundancy and mortgage protection schemes, but does not say it's a problem with universal credit.

    A big redundancy payout will affect any income related benefits as the payout will be counted as savings / capital (before UC, the thresholds per individual or couple were that having over £ 16K to your name meant you didn't get income related benefits, less than £ 6 K was fine, anywhere between the two you got benefits reduced.)

    If you're just over one of the thresholds, there are restrictions on what you can / can't do with the money - if (for example) you gave it away to friends / family, you would be regarded as 'having intentionally deprived yourself of capital' so the DWP would treat you as if you still had it. I'm not sure what the rules / procedures are now if you use some / all of it to pay off debts / a chunk of mortgage - would suggest getting better qualified advice if this might be an issue.

    Income related benefits will also be affected from day one by a partner's income /savings (partner in this concept is one of the few situations where the state recognises 'common law' partners by the way - I don't know the OP's circumstances)

    Redundancy pay did not used to affect NI contributions based benefits (although early / ill health retirement with a pension could do)

    Yes, definitely print - or store somewhere safe electronically - any e-mails. It's surprising how good some organisations are at 'accidentally' deleting e-mails when the shit hits the fan.

    If you've started applying for other jobs, find out how long you have to stick with current employer to still get a redundancy deal (depends how important you treat either getting payout / getting another job. Ideal of course is to get both) - one place I worked, it was closing down on X date, but after something like a month before, you were allowed to go and still get your redundancy pay. I'm not sure whether this was a legal requirement or something that got negotiated locally.

    Hope all goes well and you get an outcome you want.
    Miss-Shelf likes this.
  24. Mumbles274

    Mumbles274 running from law and the press and the parents

  25. MickiQ

    MickiQ Well-Known Member

    Clarifying a little on Puddy_Tat's excellent post, if they are getting rid of your entire team they don't have to score you, they just declare the whole team redundant and move onto the next step of what is (somewhat laughably) called the consultation process.
    If they're not then you have to be put in a pool and scored, the mechanism is down to your employer but if your union has recognition rights they get a say in designing it.
    However it works you have the right to see the process, your score and your relative position on the final scoresheet (but not other peoples scores)
    When I got awarded the Grand Order of the Boot in 2015 my whole team of 4 was just declared redundant since our work was going to Newcastle so there was no scoring.
    The team next to us lost 5 out of 12 and so I saw the process which was where you got 1 point per year of service, -4, -2, 0, +2, +4 points depending on what you last got on your staff appraisal which put everyone in 5 bands. Then you lost 1 point for every unauthorised absence (which did include sickness) if you had more than 3.
    It was number of unauthorised absences so if you had 6 months off for a heart attack you lost nothing but half a dozen duvet days on Monday would cost you 3 points. The kicker was the last box labelled "Management Potential", you couldn't lose any here but your manager could award you 0-10 points based on his view of your "potential" so if the person he really wanted to keep was in the chop pool he could use that to fiddle it and get them into the safe pool (which meant someone went down)
    I was very impressed someone had put a lot of thought into designing a system that both looked scrupulously fair and yet could still be fiddled.
    What I don't know is whether this 'Apply for your own Job' shit counts as making the full team redundant or not. That is one thing that really ought to be banned it's disgraceful. On the bright side they can't force anyone to apply and it could be that the one person they really want to keep thinks they can get a better job and not bother in which case they could find they've stuffed themselves.
    One final point on the amount of redundancy, depending on the amount they offer you, they may also offer you the chance to put some in your pension as a tax free sum, if they do think about, for me it was a great deal.
    Miss-Shelf and cupid_stunt like this.
  26. Mumbles274

    Mumbles274 running from law and the press and the parents

    that's all really useful info too, thanks
  27. equationgirl

    equationgirl Respect my existence or expect my resistance

    MickiQ just to note that whilst a union, through reps or shop stewards, may have input into a scoring matrix the reps will not formally agree such a matrix because such an agreement could limit legal options further down the line.

    Have been in that situation recently, and despite the union reps formally declining to agree a matrix, HR still tried to claim that we had.
    Miss-Shelf likes this.
  28. MickiQ

    MickiQ Well-Known Member

    Matrix yep that's my ex-employer called it as well, how similar was yours to the one used on us?
  29. equationgirl

    equationgirl Respect my existence or expect my resistance

    No idea!! After all the effort spent on it, it's not been used for all the people put at risk...
    MickiQ likes this.
  30. Mumbles274

    Mumbles274 running from law and the press and the parents

    Got my one to one on Monday. Have seen the criteria.
    60% interview. 10%: absence, length of service, disciplinary, qualification

    i don't stand a chance of being treated fairly. or at least don't think i do and they cant reassure me otherwise. Just hope i can get voluntary, seems that is not a given from what we received yesterday

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