Immigration Controls Only Make "Sense" under Capitalism.

[tbaldwin]

I'll stick to my belief in the power of the working class ta.

Would that include in their power to choose immigration policies or is that best left to an educated elite?

 

[audiotech]

Would that include in their power to choose immigration policies or is that best left to an educated elite?

I can only speak for myself, who left school at 15 with no qualifications and worked on building sites for some years. My choice is against, as I am definately opposed to divisive controls on the working class.

 

[big footed fred]

You might want to broaden your mind and read something I've come accross recently that blows out of the water ideas similar to yours.

Change is the norm and many things and people change but, in general, human nature does not.
Most people have little interest in politics and less so in the extremes of politics. As I said before, apathy wins over ideology any day.

Having said that I have changed much in the last two years.
I have met many people that have changed the way I think. This has not been done as a result of argument but as a result of actions done with no motive except kindness and friendship.
When a guy who has almost nothing gives you shelter and feeds you it is an experience that humbles you.
I had a years wages by his standards in my pocket and he knew I could easily afford it but would not allow me to pay as I had helped his daughter.
When you see people with no material goods who far are happier than you it makes you understand that possessions have little meaning.
A few weeks ago I was with a guy who only owned a clapped out moped in this world but he still took me about and would not take a penny for fuel or anything else.
I remain a capitalist as that is my nature and you can't deny your self but no longer require the possessions that I once craved.
My big TV has gone along with the fancy surround system and most other things that I don't need to live or for my work.
Thing is I miss none of them and add to this a little light philanthropy and I am pretty well off in the spiritual sense.
The only things I kept were my DVD player and a 14"portable and I'm quite happy.
Much happier than when I expected my hi fi to do that job for me.

 

[tbaldwin]

I can only speak for myself, who left school at 15 with no qualifications and worked on building sites for some years. My choice is against, as I am definately opposed to divisive controls on the working class.

So you must be against Higher Education then?

 

[audiotech]

So you must be against Higher Education then?

Higher education is the pits. Full of middle class brats who turn up with a few A levels and think they know it all. I should know, I worked and studied in one.

 

[audiotech]

Change is the norm and many things and people change but, in general, human nature does not.
Most people have little interest in politics and less so in the extremes of politics. As I said before, apathy wins over ideology any day.

Having said that I have changed much in the last two years.
I have met many people that have changed the way I think. This has not been done as a result of argument but as a result of actions done with no motive except kindness and friendship.
When a guy who has almost nothing gives you shelter and feeds you it is an experience that humbles you.
I had a years wages by his standards in my pocket and he knew I could easily afford it but would not allow me to pay as I had helped his daughter.
When you see people with no material goods who far are happier than you it makes you understand that possessions have little meaning.
A few weeks ago I was with a guy who only owned a clapped out moped in this world but he still took me about and would not take a penny for fuel or anything else.
I remain a capitalist as that is my nature and you can't deny your self but no longer require the possessions that I once craved.
My big TV has gone along with the fancy surround system and most other things that I don't need to live or for my work.
Thing is I miss none of them and add to this a little light philanthropy and I am pretty well off in the spiritual sense.
The only things I kept were my DVD player and a 14"portable and I'm quite happy.
Much happier than when I expected my hi fi to do that job for me.

As long as you're happy and spiritually at ease with yourself, whilst the system you support continues with exploitation and environmental degradation of the planet, then that's alright then?

However, most people in the world (living on less than two dollars a day) would disagree with you and continue to struggle against the extremes forced on them every day of their lives by capitalism.

But hey you've aided the struggle of the poor, you got rid of your big TV.

 

[big footed fred]

As long as you're happy and spiritually at ease with yourself, whilst the system you support continues with exploitation and environmental degradation of the planet, then that's alright then?

However, most people in the world (living on less than two dollars a day) would disagree with you and continue to struggle against the extremes forced on them every day of their lives by capitalism.

But hey you've aided the struggle of the poor, you got rid of your big TV.

I keep hearing the 2 dollars a day bit and can never understand why people bother saying such a silly thing.
If I buy a bottle of water for £1:20 that's about average but in another country they may pay only 10p
In other words it's not the dollar but what the dollar buys locally.
I support the system but with reservations. I don't agree with the more extreme forms of capitalism but I do consider that my company is my business and no one can tell me what to do with it.
I would be happy to support environmental positives but these can't be done the way we are doing now as the tax is killing business and having no positive effect.
I have seen some poverty in the last two years and I am not happy to see it. As I said I have changed quite a lot. I was always a little fluffy on the edges but I am now even more inclined to help in my own way those in trouble.
I do not have great influence or masses of money so I can't make a massive change to lots of people but I can help a little here and there.
The TV is a symbol only and not in itself a mark of what I may have done or will do in the future.
Try to consider the chance there may be a positive side to what I have been doing and look past your ideology when you do.

 

[tbaldwin]

Higher education is the pits. Full of middle class brats who turn up with a few A levels and think they know it all. I should know, I worked and studied in one.

Fair point....So you oppose more money for H/E students then?

 

[audiotech]

I keep hearing the 2 dollars a day bit and can never understand why people bother saying such a silly thing.
If I buy a bottle of water for £1:20 that's about average but in another country they may pay only 10p In other words it's not the dollar but what the dollar buys locally.

If only it was in a bottle, clean and wasn't contaminated.

I support the system but with reservations. I don't agree with the more extreme forms of capitalism but I do consider that my company is my business and no one can tell me what to do with it.

No regulations on exploitation and environmental damage for company's who are not as considerate as you then?

I would be happy to support environmental positives but these can't be done the way we are doing now as the tax is killing business and having no positive effect.

Well we wouldn't want to affect the obscene profits made by multi-national corporations and the obscene payments and dividends paid to board members and majority shareholders.

I have seen some poverty in the last two years and I am not happy to see it. As I said I have changed quite a lot. I was always a little fluffy on the edges but I am now even more inclined to help in my own way those in trouble. I do not have great influence or masses of money so I can't make a massive change to lots of people but I can help a little here and there.

Good samaritan Thatcher stylee?

The TV is a symbol only and not in itself a mark of what I may have done or will do in the future.
Try to consider the chance there may be a positive side to what I have been doing and look past your ideology when you do.

I don't doubt that there is a positive side to what you do, for you that is. However, the neo-liberal ideology that you give succour to only continues and widens inequalities in the world. So, in the end your pious gestures mean and do nothing to change what you find rather upsetting.

 

[samk]

Technological determinists of the world unite. You've nothing to lose but your silicon chips. The slaves and serfs just passive to events then?

I did not claim they have no effect, only that it helps hugely for the circumstances to be right.

What "tools" are you on about?

I'll stick to my belief in the power of the working class ta.

Cheap efficient solar cells, cheap efficient manufacturing equipment, internet forums, more effective learning methods, CCTV via webcam not a control center viewable only by police, electronic barter systems not run by banking corporations are some possibilities.

 

[big footed fred]

If only it was in a bottle, clean and wasn't contaminated.

No regulations on exploitation and environmental damage for company's who are not as considerate as you then?

Well we wouldn't want to affect the obscene profits made by multi-national corporations and the obscene payments and dividends paid to board members and majority shareholders.

Good samaritan Thatcher stylee?

I don't doubt that there is a positive side to what you do, for you that is. However, the neo-liberal ideology that you give succour to only continues and widens inequalities in the world. So, in the end your pious gestures mean and do nothing to change what you find rather upsetting.

Come on you know what i mean about the local value of any amount of money.
We all cause environmental damage but most don't even know they are doing it. At home I use little fuel and cause only a small problem - much less than most but my work uses fuel in both the car sense and the electricity sense.
Still it's not that much and I don't waste any.
All adding more tax will do is force a price increase - I need what I need but it means the poor are less able to afford any service I and others may offer. Have you considered that way to look at it ?
I do the odd things that help others but I won't go too far down that line here. If you wish to know more you are able to contact men so do it.
Thatcher had her good points. I know you won't agree but she did get rid of Scargill into a political black hole and that was a boost for all of us.
The last point suggests a pious attitude to people. This is quite wrong. I am, as I said, unable to make a big dent in world problems but perhaps a little assistance to someone in need goes a long way too.

In many ways I am still a total bastard but I do have a soft edge.

 

[audiotech]

Fair point....So you oppose more money for H/E students then?

Not poor ones.

 

[audiotech]

Thatcher had her good points.

Her regime saw the doubling of child poverty, which we still see the appalling social wreckage of.

 

[audiotech]

I did not claim they have no effect, only that it helps hugely for the circumstances to be right.

So, are you saying for change to happen the technological circumstances need to be right?

Cheap efficient solar cells, cheap efficient manufacturing equipment, internet forums, more effective learning methods, CCTV via webcam not a control center viewable only by police, electronic barter systems not run by banking corporations are some possibilities.

And you believe those things will change the world?

 

[durruti02]

I can only speak for myself, who left school at 15 with no qualifications and worked on building sites for some years. My choice is against, as I am definately opposed to divisive controls on the working class.

#


so, then, you would have definately organised a walk out if the bosses/firm tried to sack half the workers and bring in a load of people on lower wages??

 

[durruti02]

bump .. i'd like to hear what you say on this mc ..

 

[audiotech]

#


so, then, you would have definately organised a walk out if the bosses/firm tried to sack half the workers and bring in a load of people on lower wages??

I would organise against it. Doesn't mean I'm suddenly in favour of immigration controls. This would be about the exploitation of workers of both nationalities.

 

[big footed fred]

Her regime saw the doubling of child poverty, which we still see the appalling social wreckage of.

I said some good points. She also turned that nutter scargill and his silly lefty union mates into a toothless wonder.
The unions were drunk with their own power but even when they knew it had to end they tried to fight a woman with more brains than the lot of them.
Fat chance they had.

If you want to see real social wreckage all you need do is open the gates to anyone that wants to enter the UK or any other country.
We saw the results in bosnia. Fancy a bit of that here - I can promise you it can happen and will if we don't stop it and now.
Even under a non capitalist system controled by the state people feel threatened by mass Immigration. That's human nature and you can't change that.

 

[audiotech]

I said some good points. She also turned that nutter scargill and his silly lefty union mates into a toothless wonder.
The unions were drunk with their own power but even when they knew it had to end they tried to fight a woman with more brains than the lot of them.
Fat chance they had.

The only meglomaniac I could see was Thatcher herself. Poor thing cried when she was ousted too. I notice too that the unions are still around.

If you want to see real social wreckage all you need do is open the gates to anyone that wants to enter the UK or any other country.
We saw the results in bosnia. Fancy a bit of that here - I can promise you it can happen and will if we don't stop it and now.
Even under a non capitalist system controled by the state people feel threatened by mass Immigration. That's human nature and you can't change that.

So, you're arguing that it was mass migration that led to the war in Bosnia? Strange that as I thought it was the crude nationalism of Milosevic and the subsequent military campaign and ethnic cleansing that heaped wreckage on multi-ethnic Yugoslavia?

 

[durruti02]

I would organise against it. Doesn't mean I'm suddenly in favour of immigration controls. This would be about the exploitation of workers of both nationalities.

but mate that has been my whole arguement all along!

you lefties are so touchy to not be seen to be not toeing the line

.. workers demanding control of the workplace/housing is NOT the same as STATE immigration controls ..

the point is we need to organise here and now .. and that always means prioritising those in work or who live here, here and now .. only by doing that can we gain the sort of power to stop " .. the exploitation of workers of both nationalities.."

 

[TremulousTetra]

but mate that has been my whole arguement all along!

you lefties are so touchy to not be seen to be not toeing the line

are you being get a bit of a prick to day?

.. workers demanding control of the workplace/housing is NOT the same as STATE immigration controls ..

the point is we need to organise here and now .. and that always means prioritising those in work or who live here, here and now .. only by doing that can we gain the sort of power to stop " .. the exploitation of workers of both nationalities.."

nobody disagrees with that. Workers UNITED taking control of their workplace/housing is what we all want.

 

[big footed fred]

The only meglomaniac I could see was Thatcher herself. Poor thing cried when she was ousted too. I notice too that the unions are still around.



So, you're arguing that it was mass migration that led to the war in Bosnia? Strange that as I thought it was the crude nationalism of Milosevic and the subsequent military campaign and ethnic cleansing that heaped wreckage on multi-ethnic Yugoslavia?

Bugger and there was I thinking that the influx of albanian muslims who went on to demand a muslim state in the south and started shooting to make their point started it.
Problem is some of the idiot extreme of the muslims here in the uk are saying the same thing about areas of the UK and all it takes is a BNP leader with the publicity skills of Tony Blair to start it off here.

Kosovo background: The late 1990s saw devastating conflict after the Kosovo Liberation Army, supported by the majority ethnic Albanians - most of whom are Muslim - came out in open rebellion against Serbian rule. Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic began "ethnic cleansing" against the Kosovo Albanian population. Thousands died and hundreds of thousands fled.

Fuck me I was right - just maybe I'm right about the chances of the same here as well.
Pray to whatever god you choose that I am wrong.

 

[audiotech]

Bugger and there was I thinking that the influx of albanian muslims who went on to demand a muslim state in the south and started shooting to make their point started it.
Problem is some of the idiot extreme of the muslims here in the uk are saying the same thing about areas of the UK and all it takes is a BNP leader with the publicity skills of Tony Blair to start it off here.


Fuck me I was right - just maybe I'm right about the chances of the same here as well.
Pray to whatever god you choose that I am wrong.

I don't pray to any god.

Have you a link to that cut and paste job? I'd like to see where it originated from.

It was the unleashing of Serb nationalism, which first surfaced in Belgrade from the offices of the Serbian Acadamy of Sciences and Arts (SANU), that eventually led to the chain of events that resulted in the destruction of the centuries-old Serb community of Kosovo. The weapon was known simply as 'The Memorandom' and was put together by a group of aggrieved nationalist intellectuals. It attacked the then political hierarchy and put the blame for Yugoslavia's general malaise largely on reforms that had taken place in the 70's - specifically the 1974 constitution and the inefficiency of the system of workers' self-management. The Memorandom argued that the entire system was based on hierarchy and the 'hopeless passivity of the people'. It further catalogued a list of highly exaggerated grievences against Serbs and Serbia. Nothing to do with Albanian Muslims at all.

The real issue was likely the steady growth in the Albanian population. Serbs in Kosovo, living on the very edge of the republic certainly felt nervous and outnumbered, but Serbs were free to go live there. Instead of admitting that that Serbs left Kosovo because there were more jobs and opportunities further north, The Memorandum proclaimed that 'genocide' was taking place.

The Memorandum was seen as proof of Serbia's desire for hegemony over all Yugoslavia, and fuelled the small but growing independence movements. Certainly the Serb minority living in Kosovo had legitimate grievences, but this could have been dealt with by proposing solutions based on consensus and compromise, instead The Memorandom used wild and emotive nationalist language.

Milosovic never made any public attacks on The Memorandum and instead he watched and waited for the right moment and opportunistically used it for his own ends.

In 1987 he addressed a crowd of Serbs and took his chance to save his own neck by declaring that Serbs would not be beaten again. This despite the fact that it was mobs of Serb's who were instigating the violence at the time against Albanians.

Two years later, Milosevic addressed a crowd of over half a million at Gazimwstan in Kosova to mark the six hundreth anniversary of Serbia's defeat by the Turks at the battle of Kosovo Polje. Milosovic was to further unleash the nationalism that later spun out of control. The event crowned Milosovic as the unrivalled leader of the Serbs.

Croation President Franjo Tudjman met with Milosevic in Belgrade in April 1991. Despite the fact that the two men's nations were descending into war, they both conspired to divide Bosnia between them. Both used nationalism for their own ends and it was the ordinary people of the former Yugoslavia who paid the price.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Yup mc5, imho, that is basically right.
these are not bad on the topic,
New Perspective on US History & Yugoslavia Part 1, Part 2 , Howard Zinn

Yugoslavia: the road to hell 1992 BLACKIE, Duncan
http://mp3.lpi.org.uk/resistancemp/fulllist.htm

though the article by the same name in the International Socialist Journal from Duncan, is better.

 

[durruti02]

Workers UNITED taking control of their workplace/housing is what we all want.

but what does workers UNITED mean in practice? i oppose the employment of agency staff .. it undercuts wages and organisation .. doesn't mean i'm nasty to them! we need a strike in this boro to stop the use of agencies .. is that wrong? how is it differrent from immigration?


same q.. your boss wants to get rid of you all and import imigrants on less wages .. in one go or drip drip drip .. what do you do?? you must oppose it..no???

 

[TremulousTetra]

but what does workers UNITED mean in practice? i oppose the employment of agency staff .. it undercuts wages and organisation .. doesn't mean i'm nasty to them! we need a strike in this boro to stop the use of agencies .. is that wrong? how is it differrent from immigration?


same q.. your boss wants to get rid of you all and import imigrants on less wages .. in one go or drip drip drip .. what do you do?? you must oppose it..no???

A mate of mine was an agency worker at the Mirror group. He joined the trade union, and forced the stewards to fight for the rights of agency workers, to be treated the same as the other staff. It was a long hard fight, but eventually they won, and all the agency staff were taken on as full-time workers. (He reckoned some of the stewards were just into a cushy job. "They would talk the talk when necessary, but usually do the minimum." It seems it is not only lefties that some working-class people are cynical about.)

I don't remember if he actually joined Socialist-Worker. He certainly came to us for advice on how to fight. He came to Marxism several times. And still comes to the odd activity.

 

[audiotech]

but what does workers UNITED mean in practice? i oppose the employment of agency staff .. it undercuts wages and organisation .. doesn't mean i'm nasty to them!

Glad you weren't around when I was on an agencies books. Mind you thinking about it there were a few I worked with who thought like you. Ironic that despite coming out with all the right words (similar to yours) to defend their position, at the same time they were grabbing as much overtime as they could.

It was mainly to do with self interest. That's not socialism.

 

[durruti02]

A mate of mine was an agency worker at the Mirror group. He joined the trade union, and forced the stewards to fight for the rights of agency workers, to be treated the same as the other staff. It was a long hard fight, but eventually they won, and all the agency staff were taken on as full-time workers. (He reckoned some of the stewards were just into a cushy job. "They would talk the talk when necessary, but usually do the minimum." It seems it is not only lefties that some working-class people are cynical about.)

I don't remember if he actually joined Socialist-Worker. He certainly came to us for advice on how to fight. He came to Marxism several times. And still comes to the odd activity.

absolutely .. you work with agency staff who are employed along side you ...


BUT BUT BUT surely you also oppose the use of agency staff generally to undercut wages and union organisation?????? that is the point ..

p.s. cushy?? .. es many are pisstakers .. me?? i do exactly the same as my colleagues .. and do union on top ..( i do not take the time off as tongues start to wag) .. sadly at the cost of not being the best steward there is!

 

[durruti02]

Glad you weren't around when I was on an agencies books. Mind you thinking about it there were a few I worked with who thought like you. Ironic that despite coming out with all the right words (similar to yours) to defend their position, at the same time they were grabbing as much overtime as they could.

It was mainly to do with self interest. That's not socialism.

oh dear another lefty exposes himself as anti w/c .. that really is a total failure to understand basic labour politics ..

"those bloody trade unions .. it's just self interest you know .. i was reading all about it in the Express/Mail today! all that overtime, bullying, closed shops and strikes! It shouldn't be allowed!"

p.s. OT is generally a thing of the past mate .. they use agency to cover extra work these days .. though i did manage to put a 4k depost down on a flat back in the day!

... what a mess the left is in .. no wonder no one supports you ..

 

[tbaldwin]

It was mainly to do with self interest. That's not socialism.

I promised myself id keep out of the immigration debates for a while...
But MC5 Socialism is ALL about Self Interest.....Even a twat like marx said the Emancipation of the Working Class etc.......

Socialism is about the SELF INTEREST of the majority.
Are you sure your not a Liberal?