Immigration - A few thoughts

[Fez909]

It's funny how the person who goes on about all these terrible attitudes of the locals, and things that get heard about immigrants that are more extreme than anything anyone else hears, and so on; as well as the rise of the BNP and how ordinary people are turning to them in their droves, etc., is you, KBJ.

Quick question: do you vote BNP?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

so, it's a case of 'this ship is sinking - anyone who's not white (sic) should walk the plank'

nice.

You lie!

I didn't say that I said that we should prioritise those fleeing oppression I didn't say only the white ones could come in.

I said that we should rebuild the country for all our citizens what ever their creed or colour. I've said this on this thread and on other similar threads.

 

[citydreams]

I didn't say that I said that we should prioritise those fleeing oppression I didn't say only the white ones could come in.

I said that we should rebuild the country for all our citizens what ever their creed or colour. I've said this on this thread and on other similar threads.

It's not what you say, it's the implications behind it.

There's no way to build this country without the support from other countries.

And having a protectionist ideology such as 'closing the borders' screams of racist undertones. This country was built on the back of 'immigrants'. Now you want to exclude them - for their own good?!

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It's funny how the person who goes on about all these terrible attitudes of the locals, and things that get heard about immigrants that are more extreme than anything anyone else hears, and so on; as well as the rise of the BNP and how ordinary people are turning to them in their droves, etc., is you, KBJ.

Probably becuase I've been in situations and communities where such attitudes are voiced far more often than elsewhere. I'm worried about the rise in intolerance but you won't remove intolerace without solving the underlying problems. We have resource and resource allocation problems in the UK mass economic immigration is exacerbating that and causing yet more intolerance.

The bnp are gaining a lot of support this may not look a lot when compared with Labour and Tory but it is growing and is a concern. They have far more support than the majority the AGM-In-A-Phone-Box Left groups I think the bnp will grow sadly.

Quick question: do you vote BNP?

No I do not. Never have done and can't see any situation where I ever would. Why would a turkey vote for christmas?

About as far right I would go would be Conservative and that would be at push and in a specific local circumstance.

I will volunteer however that I did have several members of my family who were dedicated followers of Oswald Mosley and similar later nutters so I've seen a fash mindset up close so to speak.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It's not what you say, it's the implications behind it.

There's no way to build this country without the support from other countries.

And having a protectionist ideology such as 'closing the borders' screams of racist undertones. This country was built on the back of 'immigrants'. Now you want to exclude them - for their own good?!

I think we need some protectionism for the sake of social cohesion. Although I agree wholeheartedly with you that immigrants have played a major part in the growth of the uk in the past your wording seems to deny the contribution made by non immigrants. I agree that we need support from other countries but in the form of aid and trade not cheap labour that undercuts our own people who ever they happen to be.

Racists have used the phrase closing the borders but I really think that the idea and practicalities of border control and the language around it needs to be reclaimed from the racist nutters.

 

[citydreams]

I think we need some protectionism for the sake of social cohesion.

But that doesn't necessarily mean closed borders. You're playing right into the hands of BNP

Although I agree wholeheartedly with you that immigrants have played a major part in the growth of the uk in the past your wording seems to deny the contribution made by non immigrants.

Fair point, but I'm not the one crying out for draconian measures. Non-migrants already have benefits accrued to them by the very fact that they are already a part of our social welfare system, they know the culture, they are more likely to be able to find a 'decent' job. They already are better off.

I agree that we need support from other countries but in the form of aid and trade not cheap labour that undercuts our own people who ever they happen to be.

This still doesn't mean closed borders. Can you not come up with anything more imaginative?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

But that doesn't necessarily mean closed borders. You're playing right into the hands of BNP




Fair point, but I'm not the one crying out for draconian measures. Non-migrants already have benefits accrued to them by the very fact that they are already a part of our social welfare system, they know the culture, they are more likely to be able to find a 'decent' job. They already are better off.

I agree that we need support from other countries but in the form of aid and trade not cheap labour that undercuts our own people who ever they happen to be.

This still doesn't mean closed borders. Can you not come up with anything more imaginative?

Again I feel that I've been misrepresented. Although I believe that we should restrict economic migration we should balance that by being more fair to those fleeing persecution.

We have far far too many of our own people languishing in enforced poverty, despair and idleness to allow the current situation to continue. We need to restrict (not close totally) our borders to economic migration in order to bring those who have been afected by previous govt policies to play their full part in society again.

It is a simple case of cost benefit on the point of those employing economic migrants. If its going to cost 500 to train a cafe worker to be productive but you can get the same cafe worker as a previously trained migrant then the business is going to choose the migrant.

If we are to get as many people into productive satisfying work as we can then we need to free up those jobs that are currently being done by economci migrants.

I'm not proposing that we get all the Poles etc and bung them on a train bound for the Chunnel more we try to get EU support for a British Marshall Plan with a phasing in of entry restrictions for certain grades of work for a limited period while we retrain and re equip our country.

 

[sleaterkinney]

If we are to get as many people into productive satisfying work as we can then we need to free up those jobs that are currently being done by economci migrants.

And what happens in the meantime to the job the economic migrant was doing?

I'm not proposing that we get all the Poles etc and bung them on a train bound for the Chunnel more we try to get EU support for a British Marshall Plan with a phasing in of entry restrictions for certain grades of work for a limited period while we retrain and re equip our country.

We can improve education independently of immigration.

 

[Dissident Junk]

I think our recent issues with immigration, the current paradigm if you like, will vanish over the next three years.

For a start, Poles are going home. In droves. And they will continue to do so as sterling weakens and jobs dry up. And I suspect sterling will tank something chronic over the next few years. We will lose, I reckon, at least 75% of migrant Poles.

Then we have, what looks like, a humdinger of a recession coming. The government finances are UP SHIT CREEK. I cannot emphasise this enough. We could not afford the liabilities we had before NR was bailed. Wastage is already introduced into the public sector, there are moves to seriously downsize some flagship NuLabour projects. Government debt payments are getting dangerously close to 'oh crumbs, DM' territory.

We will have to have some form of welfare reform and tax rises in order to cope. That welfare reform will remove the moral hazard of immigrants staying in the UK for state payments. We are seeing huge rises in food, fuel and energy inflation, and this will start to get worse if the recent M4 figures are to be believed. All this will drive the last ten years of migrants away, and probably quite a few Brits as well. As migrants leave, it will double whammy the BTL sector, and attendent businesses will close: all the Polish food shops etc, further reducing tax take.

The serious issues are things like tax credits. We can't afford them now, but Brown has put in place a set of benefits that now cannot easily be rolled back without causing economic carnage.

I was bothered about immigration numbers; now I am not. As an issue, I think it will disappear in the coming onslaught of economic turbulence because globalisation means that those chasing the pennies and the good life can jump a sinking ship. And we are currently on board the most riddled Mary Rose in Europe.

We will see asylum, EU8 and gold plate migrant numbers shrink over the next few years. Immigration will not even be an issue come 2010 becasue we won't really have any. Exactly like it was back in the early 90s when the only new faces in your town were Bosnian refugees.

Then, when the smoke clears, we will see just how much of a mess the UK really is.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

And what happens in the meantime to the job the economic migrant was doing?

It would be done by a British person. It can't happen overnight people need to be trained but there is no point training people if the jobs they could do are already taken by those from overseas. I'm not saying that Mr or Ms Pole should have some factotum march into their employers and be marched out again more that we should over the course of a couple of years reduce the number of economic migrants and fill the vacated jobs with UK citizens.

We can improve education independently of immigration.

Agreed but what does the person do when they leave education will they have a job or will it be filled by a non brit?

There is so much we need to invest in to rebuild housing for instance. It seems madness to import builders to build public housing which will be occupied by those claiming benefit becuase they have no jobs. Why not have our own population help with the rebuilding of our nation.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I think our recent issues with immigration, the current paradigm if you like, will vanish over the next three years.

For a start, Poles are going home. In droves. And they will continue to do so as sterling weakens and jobs dry up. And I suspect sterling will tank something chronic over the next few years. We will lose, I reckon, at least 75% of migrant Poles.

Then we have, what looks like, a humdinger of a recession coming. The government finances are UP SHIT CREEK. I cannot emphasise this enough. We could not afford the liabilities we had before NR was bailed. Wastage is already introduced into the public sector, there are moves to seriously downsize some flagship NuLabour projects. Government debt payments are getting dangerously close to 'oh crumbs, DM' territory.

We will have to have some form of welfare reform and tax rises in order to cope. That welfare reform will remove the moral hazard of immigrants staying in the UK for state payments. We are seeing huge rises in food, fuel and energy inflation, and this will start to get worse if the recent M4 figures are to be believed. All this will drive the last ten years of migrants away, and probably quite a few Brits as well. As migrants leave, it will double whammy the BTL sector, and attendent businesses will close: all the Polish food shops etc, further reducing tax take.

The serious issues are things like tax credits. We can't afford them now, but Brown has put in place a set of benefits that now cannot easily be rolled back without causing economic carnage.

I was bothered about immigration numbers; now I am not. As an issue, I think it will disappear in the coming onslaught of economic turbulence because globalisation means that those chasing the pennies and the good life can jump a sinking ship. And we are currently on board the most riddled Mary Rose in Europe.

We will see asylum, EU8 and gold plate migrant numbers shrink over the next few years. Immigration will not even be an issue come 2010 becasue we won't really have any. Exactly like it was back in the early 90s when the only new faces in your town were Bosnian refugees.

Then, when the smoke clears, we will see just how much of a mess the UK really is.

Interesting and very intelligently put post.

 

[kyser_soze]

KBJ - is your current partner a Tory or something? It's just when you were with nutter woman you changed and were all listening, tolerant etc etc, and of late you've been a frother. Does your partner influence you that much?

Also, wanting to move to Poland to work is economic migration, so fuck off with your bile on this thread.

 

[sleaterkinney]

It would be done by a British person.

So what?

Agreed but what does the person do when they leave education will they have a job or will it be filled by a non brit?

Whichever one is better.

There is so much we need to invest in to rebuild housing for instance. It seems madness to import builders to build public housing which will be occupied by those claiming benefit becuase they have no jobs.

Do you think this is what happens?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

KBJ - is your current partner a Tory or something? It's just when you were with nutter woman you changed and were all listening, tolerant etc etc, and of late you've been a frother. Does your partner influence you that much?

No far far from it.

Also, wanting to move to Poland to work is economic migration, so fuck off with your bile on this thread.

The only bile I'm seeing on here is coming from the pro immigration mob. You can want to be an economic migrant whilst still being able to see the problems it can cause in some circumstances.

 

[nino_savatte]

There is a problem with immigration in the UK. This statement will probably get the no borders loons sharpening their knives but it is something that cannot be denied.

Is someone paying you to start these threads? Because this is the second or third one within the space of a week that opens with about 1000 words or so. The only people who are going to agree with you are the usual suspects...the miserablist tendency types.

Weren't you talking about emigrating?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Is someone paying you to start these threads? Because this is the second or third one within the space of a week that opens with about 1000 words or so. The only people who are going to agree with you are the usual suspects...the miserablist tendency types.

Weren't you talking about emigrating?

No I'm not being paid to put up these threads. If I was I would have the sponsors logo on each post. The reason that the OP's are long is they are the culmination of stuff that has come up on other threads and I feel that the subject needs more than just a one para opening post.

I am thinking about emigrating. If Britain gets any worse that is.

 

[nino_savatte]

No I'm not being paid to put up these threads. If I was I would have the sponsors logo on each post. The reason that the OP's are long is they are the culmination of stuff that has come up on other threads and I feel that the subject needs more than just a one para opening post.

I am thinking about emigrating. If Britain gets any worse that is.

Blame it on the immigrants. FFS.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Blame it on the immigrants. FFS.

If you read my Britain is a Toilet thead I blame much more than immigration for Britains problems.

Immigration is a factor in Britains current problems but it is in no way a primary cause.

We must tackle our problems primary causes.

 

[sleaterkinney]

No I'm not being paid to put up these threads. If I was I would have the sponsors logo on each post. The reason that the OP's are long is they are the culmination of stuff that has come up on other threads and I feel that the subject needs more than just a one para opening post.

I think they must have the lowest content/length ratio seen on the boards tbh. There's nothing in there.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No I'm not being paid to put up these threads. If I was I would have the sponsors logo on each post. The reason that the OP's are long is they are the culmination of stuff that has come up on other threads and I feel that the subject needs more than just a one para opening post.

I am thinking about emigrating. If Britain gets any worse that is.

Do your country a favour.

Emigrate.




You are stuck in a rather untenable position, aren't you.

 

[Yossarian]

a wider national Marshall Plan for rebuilding the UK...we have been left with a legacy that sees less public housing than we need, poor quality hospitals, a school system that isn’t working as well as it could be and general resource issues all round.

A Marshall Plan? You really think there's much parallel between a Europe devastated by years of total war, with millions on the verge of starvation and whole cities reduced to rubble, and a Britain that has room for improvement in the provision of some social services?

With the economic migrants and the remittances they send home no longer putting a strain on services

As somebody else pointed out earlier in the thread, if you're so offended by the presence of economic migrants from elsewhere in the EU just wait until the recession starts and the jobs dry up and they'll be off, it's not as if those people have moved to the UK for the climate or the cuisine.

 

[nino_savatte]

If you read my Britain is a Toilet thead I blame much more than immigration for Britains problems.

Immigration is a factor in Britains current problems but it is in no way a primary cause.

We must tackle our problems primary causes.

But you don't miss an opportunity to point the finger at them - do you?

It's too easy and too lazy to blame immigrants for the country's problems...or,as you have suggested here, to apportion blame to them.

ETA: your Britain is a Toilet thread began in a similar vein to this one: full of tabloideque bile and all to ready to point the finger of blame. Indeed, your excoriation of the Labour led local authorities of the 80's was redolent of all the tabloid smear stories that I used to see back then.

 

[tarannau]

I am thinking about emigrating. If Britain gets any worse that is.

I thought you had decided to go on the other thread?

Do we really need all this uninformed, evidence-free brainbibble to say that. You may well have just put down 'I don't like the way this country it turning out, I blame the immigrants personally' for all the substantive content or real world evidence/stats/facts it contains.

Love the idea that anyone pointing out that you're sounding like a walking Daily Mail headline is portrayed as a 'pro immigration' person. You do realise we already have a highly restrictive immigration policy in place, right?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

A Marshall Plan? You really think there's much parallel between a Europe devastated by years of total war, with millions on the verge of starvation and whole cities reduced to rubble, and a Britain that has room for improvement in the provision of some social services?

Not making a direct comparison but we have fallen far below the state where we need 'a little bit of improvement'.

As somebody else pointed out earlier in the thread, if you're so offended by the presence of economic migrants from elsewhere in the EU just wait until the recession starts and the jobs dry up and they'll be off, it's not as if those people have moved to the UK for the climate or the cuisine.

Thats an interesting prediction.

 

[tarannau]

It's an absolutely logical prediction, one that we can show precedents for.

It's your half-baked apocalyptic 'this country's going to the dogs' theory that isn't backed up by reason or common sense

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It's an absolutely logical prediction, one that we can show precedents for.

It's your half-baked apocalyptic 'this country's going to the dogs' theory that isn't backed up by reason or common sense

The country IS going to the dogs. Although I'd be interested to see the precedents for the earlier prediction.

 

[kyser_soze]

The country IS going to the dogs. Although I'd be interested to see the precedents for the earlier prediction.

Your journey to the dark side of the Daily Mail is complete!!!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The country IS going to the dogs.

Or alternatively, we've never had it so good. [We're richer than we've ever been]

 

[Dissident Junk]

I am not too sure why economic immigrants need to be defended in the way they are sometimes. Refugees, yes. Asylum seekers, yes. But economic immigrants? It seems slightly wrong-headed to me to defend people that move to gain an economic upperhand, to take advantage of strong exchange rates, so they can get ahead in their own country, to be defended the same way as one would a tortured Iranian dissident.

In many ways, EU8ers are just the same as Aussies or South Africans. They are not vulnerable, imo; the more vulnerable people in the equation are the British workers that depend upon trades or manual labour for their living. The EU8ers have made a choice to come to Britain to make money. Yes, unemployment can be severe in EU8 countries, running at about 18%, I think, in Poland, but the UK also has employment-deficient zones where people do not have the finance nor education to move abroad and take a manual job for a good wage.

The lack of ability to regenerate areas and educate people in vulnerable UK communities so they can find 'living wage' work is our problem. It exists here, we have allowed it to come to pass, it is within our political remit, and, in some ways, we are part of a nation that has allowed it to happen. The economic circumstances of Poles, Slovakians, et al is not our problem in the same way.

I do feel that questions over immigration pass the buck of responsibility for the legacy of unemployment in some UK areas. It is as though we are defending the rights of nice (culturally middle-class, many Polish migrants would be viewed this way in British socio-terms) people with good educations from another political system, and a forethought for making a quick buck, to screw the workers in our own society, whom we have failed.

Oh shit. I used the word 'workers'.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

What is sad about this thread is almost nobody has taken up the point about better help and facilities, training and orientation for those fleeing persecution.

The focus of the opponents to my original post has been constantly to say 'its a daily mail headline' 'racist' 'nationalistic' to the very reasonable suggestion that we make more room for those in dire need by taking humane and reasonable steps to reduce economic migration.

With such small mindedness and an inability to see wider problems and also an inability to percieve how immigration is percieved by many people in the UK it is no wonder that the pro immigration camp is dismissed as out of touch with reality and that people are looking to the extreme right for simplistic solutions.