Immigration a different view.

[ViolentPanda]

My point is that people pontificating about Global Capitalism being responsible for all the evils of the world means nothing to the builders labourers who drink in my pub and have seen their wages go down from £80 a day 3 years ago to £50 a day now, the warehouse men who were on £8 an hour and now are on minimum wage.

Again, you say "means nothing", I say "means something", even if that "something" is a vague knowledge that the reason their wages are tanking is because their employer has "shopped around" for his labour and is using people to whom the low wages he pays may seem (until they acclimatise to the cost of living in the UK) "decent".

My comments are in response to “ Originally Posted by Mallard
I've never heard a decent argument for having any border controls whatsoever myself”

Clearly written by someone who has spent all their life living in the land of mike and honey and thinks with a developed world mindset.

That is the context

Oh, I understand the context your reply to Mallard was made in, but I notice that you didn't ask Mallard to quantify what comprised a "decent argument", or on what type of basis (ideological, moral etc) the argument was made.

With regard to your 2nd point I’d ask, Where do they get this info from, not their unions that have signally failed to address the issue of lower wages, not the press, so where?

I’ll tell you the only place I have read anything about it has been in the local BNP paper that came through the letter box during the last election.

IIRC over three-quarters of the UK workforce is not unionised, so unions would be a non-starter in terms of wide dissemination, even if one didn't take into account factors such as individual antipathy to trade unions.
Where can people get solid inbiased information on such matters from? To be frank I don't know.

PS There are a few people who post here who don't think the UK is in a managed decline

There's a few who post here who think that the UK is still an example of imperial majesty.

 

[Epicurus]

If all immigrants were like you, I'd vote to have em deported, thankfully they ain't. Oh and stop banding about "Little Englander" like it's some kind of insult. I'm proud to be a "Little Englander" and don't you forget it Johnny boy!!!

hahahaha
but you don't know me, are you bassing your view on posts from a BB, hhahahaha.

Read the thread and you'll see Litle Englander was aimed at me as an insult, you prat

 

[ViolentPanda]

hahahaha
but you don't know me, are you bassing your view on posts from a BB, hhahahaha.

Read the thread and you'll see Litle Englander was aimed at me as an insult, you prat

There's a reason that so many posters call Tonkatoy "Tonkatwat", and you've just been on the receiving end of it.

 

[Epicurus]

Oh, I understand the context your reply to Mallard was made in, but I notice that you didn't ask Mallard to quantify what comprised a "decent argument", or on what type of basis (ideological, moral etc) the argument was made.

I didn't ask him as I wouldn't be interested in his answers, from his statement it is clear that he is confusing his theories and the day to day reality of many working-class British and others, or the ones I come into regular contact with.

When I say meaningless I mean that if I gave you some advise in Portuguese and you didn't understand that advise it would be meaningless, just as telling the builders labourers in my local pub that the reason for the drop in their wages is because of global capitalism, most wouldn't even listen to you after using a phrase like that, that's not me being a snob that is a fact of life.

They see Polish guys working for £40 a day and that is their reality, when I speak to them they don't blame the polish 100% as they agree if the boot was on the other foot they would do the same, but they do blame the Government for "letting them all in".

Lets face it if you told your boss that you thought 15,000 people would come in at the last enlargement and the reality was 600,000 you'd be sacked for incompetence, but these people just make the same mistakes day after day and nothing happens when they are so wrong.

If you really believe that most people take a world political views over issues like this then I disagree with you, all I can say it isn't what I find in the local pubs around here, where most people I drink with couldn't give a flying fuck about politics and don't want to talk about it when they can talk about football.

I'm not saying here that all the working-class in the UK are ignorant about politics, as I know many who are very clued-up, but I am talking about my experience in the local pubs where I have never encountered any racism personally.

It is clear from his comments that he has no world view at all, as anyone who thought that a no borders policy somewhere like Brazil at the time wouldn’t be a disaster for all is just living in cloud cookcoo land (I hope that is the right phrase I read it somewhere yesterday).

A question for you; can you tell me who is fighting for the rights of the working-class in the UK today over issues such as this, I haven’t seen any, why are the Trade Unions in the UK not becoming global and fighting across boarders for better working conditions and the like?

 

[Epicurus]

There's a reason that so many posters call Tonkatoy "Tonkatwat", and you've just been on the receiving end of it.

I'm sure in the real world he is a lovely boy.

 

[TonkaToy]

hahahaha
but you don't know me, are you bassing your view on posts from a BB, hhahahaha.

Read the thread and you'll see Litle Englander was aimed at me as an insult, you prat

ROFL. Sorry!

 

[TonkaToy]

There's a reason that so many posters call Tonkatoy "Tonkatwat", and you've just been on the receiving end of it.

Oi Shut it!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oi Shut it!

The truth hurts, does it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

A question for you; can you tell me who is fighting for the rights of the working-class in the UK today over issues such as this, I haven’t seen any, why are the Trade Unions in the UK not becoming global and fighting across boarders for better working conditions and the like?

The short answer is that what fighting does get done is done by small and often disparate groupings.
The reasons for this are manifold, but imho (to risk labouring an old point) boil down to a distrust by many activists on the left of larger political organisations. This is a relic of mid to late 20th century British "hard" leftwing history, where factionalism and in-fighting were often seen as more important than political engagement.
As for the trade unions, many of them have solidly "left" memberships, but have, as organisations, moved centrewards in an attempt to retain their links to the Labour party, and have hence placed themselves in a position where representation of class interest is no longer a primary loyalty, global solidarity even less so.

BTW, you recalled "cloud cuckoo land" correctly and used it in exactly the right context.

 

[Epicurus]

The short answer is that what fighting does get done is done by small and often disparate groupings.
The reasons for this are manifold, but imho (to risk labouring an old point) boil down to a distrust by many activists on the left of larger political organisations. This is a relic of mid to late 20th century British "hard" leftwing history, where factionalism and in-fighting were often seen as more important than political engagement.
As for the trade unions, many of them have solidly "left" memberships, but have, as organisations, moved centrewards in an attempt to retain their links to the Labour party, and have hence placed themselves in a position where representation of class interest is no longer a primary loyalty, global solidarity even less so.

BTW, you recalled "cloud cuckoo land" correctly and used it in exactly the right context.

The bit in bold is something I have had real problems understanding since arriving in the UK.

I’m told that is as a result of the left/anti-authoritarian groups being smashed to bits by Thatcher and a general rejection of those groups by the working-class in the 90’s, from what I have read it seems that many people just gave up after the working-class failed to fully support the miners in the 84/5 strike.

My personal view is that the UK is so comfortable that people just can’t get worked up enough anymore, most British people seem to have just settled for “well this is good enough for me”, but there appears also to be massive unhappiness here as well with something like 40% wanting to leave, 35% of Doctors appointments being to deal with some form of depression, I think last week there was a report that said 70% of people feel oppressed (I think the stonewall site had something like 109% if you added up all the numbers that felt oppressed).

 

[Demosthenes]

Wonderful to see some intelligent and sane discussion from VP and Epicurus.

Maybe the rise in depression is the result of the long-term effect of ecstasy, - a kind of mass comedown. ? - the inevitable result of the increasing divide between the ecstasy reality and the grim fact of everyday life in the "real" world.

But you know apparently we make a lot more money now as a country than we ever did before. Maybe the problem is that we seem to put most of it into an ever-rising housing market, and apart from that, I suppose we spend a lot on prolonging people's lives. Strange that, - that we invest so heavily in quantity of life, and not at all in quality.

On balance, I don't think it was very politically astute of the left to favour no borders, though it's probably what we should aspire to as a world.
What's particularly strange though is the fact that local councils have been forced by the law of the land to give loads of housing to people who aren't from this country, who can often later buy it at much less than its market value. This may not be a bad thing, - but it does seem very unfair on the people who are from this country who need the cheap housing, - as there is no other country that reciprocates by giving the english free housing in their country if the english emigrate.

Edited to add. - Interesting to note that historically it was the conservatives that took us into Europe for the sake of free trade etc. and Labour that was opposed, but that the labour party stopped being opposed as it progressively abandoned its leftist roots.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The bit in bold is something I have had real problems understanding since arriving in the UK.

I’m told that is as a result of the left/anti-authoritarian groups being smashed to bits by Thatcher and a general rejection of those groups by the working-class in the 90’s, from what I have read it seems that many people just gave up after the working-class failed to fully support the miners in the 84/5 strike.

I'd go along with some of that but would add that it (factionalism and in-fighting) pre-existed Thatcher and Thatcherism, but was more closely confined within certain elements of the left. As for a general rejection of so-called "hard left" groups by the working class, there was an element of stage-managed assistance (imho) toward demonising non-soft leftists by Kinnock's labour heirarchy, many of whom were (and are) strongly Atlanticist.
Add to that Thatcher's wholesale bribery of sections of the aspirational working class vis a vis[/B] home ownership, allied to a political and economic culture which lauded entrepeneurship and property ownership, and denigrated any who didn't sing from that hymnsheet, and those who weren't suborned were made to feel impotent. It seems to me that such a feeling of impotence has taken firm root.

My personal view is that the UK is so comfortable that people just can’t get worked up enough anymore, most British people seem to have just settled for “well this is good enough for me”, but there appears also to be massive unhappiness here as well with something like 40% wanting to leave, 35% of Doctors appointments being to deal with some form of depression, I think last week there was a report that said 70% of people feel oppressed (I think the stonewall site had something like 109% if you added up all the numbers that felt oppressed).

"Unhappiness" is about right. Not depression but dissatisfaction. Too many people wanting "things" they don't need because they vaguely feel that they have an entitlement to them, and then feeling sorry for themselves when they can't have instant gratification.
To me such self-indulgence being called "depression", whether by GPs or by the people themselves, kind of cheapens the crushing emotional distress of those who suffer genuine depressive illness.

 

[Mallard]

Me little Englander hahahahahahahah

I think this country is finished and has been in a managed decline for the last 40 years and I will be leaving to return home to Brazil next year having made some money.

I’m am an Immigrant you fool

Unsurprisingly you haven't even attempted to criticise any of my arguments. You do indeed have the mindset of an ignorant little englander obsessed with immigration. Sounds like an affectation you've adopted since being here. Considering your ignorance of economics the decline argument would be better coming from someone else although there is truth in it.

To be fair your arguments indicate a fool then an immigrant.

Market economics is meaning less to 99% of working-class people, the fact that their pay packet is smaller has lots of meaning for them.

Patronising bollocks I'm afraid. Talking to a couple of ignorant closet racists in a London pub is hardly representative. The large number of working class people in my family and as my friends are far more acutley aware of economics then yourself and are well atuned with the reasons for low wages. An infantesimal amount of which is down to competion from migrants.

Just because YOU think it isn’t a good argument many workers who are suffering would disagree with you.

You are just another example of British “Youff” whose theories bear no relation to what is going on in the real world.

You haven't addressed my arguments and tbh don't appear to understand them. You continue to rely on the tactics of unsupported ludicrous statements and a pathetic assertion that you somehow know what all 'British workers think'. Patronising toss again.

Come back again when you have some real life experience.

I really wish you would attempt to actually address the argument rather than go for character assassination. You seem to rely on your own very limited experience and attempt to convey what you egotistically call the view of 'British workers'.

For the record, I have 37 years of being born, living with, working with, marrying, being friends with the 'British working class' which you so 'patronisingly speak for'. As opposed to say bothering a couple of workmen in a London pub and posting on a couple of bulletin boards.

The vast majority of people I know would find your arguments flawed and a thin veil to hide your wind up and petty prejudices. I for one am happy you'll be off after a spate of lifestyle tourism as we seem to have enough petty bigot egotists of our own.

Any chance of actually attempting to discuss economics now?

 

[Epicurus]

I'd go along with some of that but would add that it (factionalism and in-fighting) pre-existed Thatcher and Thatcherism, but was more closely confined within certain elements of the left. As for a general rejection of so-called "hard left" groups by the working class, there was an element of stage-managed assistance (imho) toward demonising non-soft leftists by Kinnock's labour heirarchy, many of whom were (and are) strongly Atlanticist.
Add to that Thatcher's wholesale bribery of sections of the aspirational working class vis a vis[/B] home ownership, allied to a political and economic culture which lauded entrepeneurship and property ownership, and denigrated any who didn't sing from that hymnsheet, and those who weren't suborned were made to feel impotent. It seems to me that such a feeling of impotence has taken firm root.


"Unhappiness" is about right. Not depression but dissatisfaction. Too many people wanting "things" they don't need because they vaguely feel that they have an entitlement to them, and then feeling sorry for themselves when they can't have instant gratification.
To me such self-indulgence being called "depression", whether by GPs or by the people themselves, kind of cheapens the crushing emotional distress of those who suffer genuine depressive illness.

Growing up I used to look to the UK while most of my piers were looking to the USA and then coming here and seeing the reality was a great disappointment to me.

But I’m understanding far more now.

 

[Mallard]

Growing up I used to look to the UK while most of my piers were looking to the USA and then coming here and seeing the reality was a great disappointment to me.

But I’m understanding far more now.

You didn't want to address my points then Brazilnut?

 

[Epicurus]

You didn't want to address my points then Brazilnut?

No not with you thanks

Your original statement makes it very clear what your position is and that everyone else is wrong, so I see little point.

BTW my screen name here is Epicurus, I no longer post on the board where I was Brazilnut because of how right people like you think they always are.

 

[Mallard]

No not with you thanks

Your original statement makes it very clear what your position is and that everyone else is wrong, so I see little point.

BTW my screen name here is Epicurus, I no longer post on the board where I was Brazilnut because of how right people like you think they always are.

I thought not. You seem to enjoy posting constant threads about restricting immigration and hearing the sound of your own voice. If anyone challenges you with actual ideas you can not address them. Very sad but expected.

 

[Epicurus]

I thought not. You seem to enjoy posting constant threads about restricting immigration and hearing the sound of your own voice. If anyone challenges you with actual ideas you can not address them. Very sad but expected.

That is your view and you are entitled to it.

The facts are I enjoy debate with many posters here.

btw, I am an Immigrant and I also spend my time working at an advice centre for immigrants as the CAB will no longer give such advice, if you bothered to look you’d see I have posted lots of different views on immigration some pro and some anti, it really depends on how the debate has gone and what information I’m looking for.

You have no idea of my personal view or you wouldn't make such silly statements.

on a personal note, is your life really so empty that you have followed me here because I stopped posting on the other board you use, I stopped posting there because of the hypocrisy there, so called anarchists and socialists who are happy to slag off the working class, and show unbelievable prejudice, that maybe an environment you want to debate in but its not for me.

 

[Mallard]

on a personal note, is your life really so empty that you have followed me here because I stopped posting on the other board you use, I stopped posting there because of the hypocrisy there, so called anarchists and socialists who are happy to slag off the working class, and show unbelievable prejudice, that maybe an environment you want to debate in but its not for me.

Check my join date. Top right hand corner. I'd rather discuss the issues than other boards.

 

[tbaldwin]

I've never heard a decent argument for having any border controls whatsoever myself. Interesting points though.

When i first read this i thought you were some BNP boy on a wind up...But i think your actually trying to be serious by the look of some of your other posts?

Immigration makes the world a much more unequal place. It means poorer countries losing the people they need most. The skilled workers are far more likely to leave than unskilled workers.

The development of poorer nations is hampered by what amounts to imperialism.

The Fascistic survival of the fittest policy of so called free movement leads to Doctors,Engineers and Teachers leaving poor countries and the people left behind having the FREEDOM to rot.

 

[tbaldwin]

It's a poor and naive one. As capital is global the jobs will simply be transposed abroad as has been seen with the shift of companies from and around the supposed 'Tiger economies' in the last decade or so.

Rents are actually being put up by a number of factors. One is increased private investment and speculation in housing and the greater number of private landlords attempting to turn a profit. This has come at a time when public housing has declined. The number of singlehouseholds has also increased significantly. When there is a market like this the poor lose out and prices rise. It really has very little to do with immigration nationally despite what The Daily Mail might say.

Yeah. So the amount of people wanting Housing has nothing to do with the price of housing....And the amount of people wanting jobs has no effect on wages......
erm...maybe a BNP wind up after all....

 

[brasicritique]

btw, I am an Immigrant and I also spend my time working at an advice centre for immigrants as the CAB will no longer give such advice

To fucking bad. My heart bleeds. The number of CAB's in this country have been cut back to nothing. Maybe if there were advice centres for the Under class/Working class then perhaps so many of them would not be heading into the open arms of the BNP? There are so many intellectuals on this website apparently with the knowledge needed to make the world a better place, surely it is about time that they built bridges and gave something back instead procrastinating?

Oops my mistake that would mean Middleclass people interacting with people who cannot afford a latte. Lazy insecure bastards. You get the world you deserve.