Immigrants must learn "the British language"

[LilMissHissyFit]

Brittany does have Breton. But it isn't in these islands, and cannot be what the Government wants immigrants into the UK to learn.

I'll concede Cornwall has Cornish, although I submit it died out and has been revived by enthusiasts.

All language evolves. My point is that the language of the Ancient Britons (ie the British Language) has evolved into Welsh (Breton and Cornish), not into English.

OK good point made badly when you said- reads differently from how you meant it to thats all

It meant "Painted Ones", and indeed covered all of the peoples. But those peoples retreated to the West (Wales, Cumbria, Strathclyde, Cornwall, Brittany). Their language, however, survives only in Wales.

 

[TeeJay]

That's a discredited theory these days. About as logical as saying the Television People colonized these islands in the 1950s, replacing the previous inhabitants.

The Celts migrated to the "British Isles" (as they were later labelled by the Romans. There were people there before they arrived. True or false?

Take for example the original line-up of Napalm Death: was there one or not?

OK, let me narrow my claim down: there is no original anything, when it comes to "nations", "peoples", "cultures" or "countries".

I will leave rock groups out of it.

 

[neprimerimye]

So do middle class revolutionary socialists have the task of making the middle class conscious of their role in oppressing everyone?

edit: ...but more seriously: like you I don't really buy into the idea of national identity - but I also don't buy into the idea of class identity either. It is just another 'political idea' which can be useful in some situations but not some "objective" universal truth. But then again I am "liberal" not a revolutionary marxist.

Well Chas Marx, a middle class revolutionary socialist, did write a book so that workers could become more class conscious. Given that more middle class interlectuals have paid it serious attention than so called Marxists ever have your comment is sadly correct.

Of course class is not a universal objective truth. Thats the point really to get rid of classes.

 

[pilchardman]

The Celts migrated to the "British Isles" (as they were later labelled by the Romans. There were people there before they arrived. True or false?

True.

But the people labelled Britons by the Romans were the ones here when the Romans labelled them. Oddly enough. So it is their language that is the British Language, not the (unknown) language of the Pre-British inhabitants. Funnily.

I don't remember saying anything about who was original, just who the Britons were.

 

[neprimerimye]

"I can only presume that a Welsh census would carry an option to opt out of declaring one’s nationality? Would I be permitted to travel where I will regardless of borders that mean nothing to me? Will that right be available to non-Welsh citizens wishing to come here?"

But you start off by talking about citizenship and then talk about nationality, and they are two different things, surely? (british citizenship vs welsh nationality, for example)

I was replying to lewislewis who is desirous of a Welsh state.

Although it could be said and is said by many that British citizenship and British nationality are identical.

In fact there are plenty of people around who will depending on the context describe their nationality as either Welsh or British. Many see no contradiction in doing so.

Given that nations are not based on any material reality but on a shared adherence to an irrational concept they may be right......

 

[TeeJay]

True.

But the people labelled Britons by the Romans were the ones here when the Romans labelled them. Oddly enough. So it is their language that is the British Language, not the (unknown) language of the Pre-British inhabitants. Funnily.

I don't remember saying anything about who was original, just who the Britons were.

I totally accept that Welsh is a British language, but I dispute the idea that there is only *one* British language. English evolved on these islands, so it is also a British language as well.

 

[pilchardman]

I totally accept that Welsh is a British language, but I dispute the idea that there is only *one* British language. English evolved on these islands, so it is also a British language as well.

The point, though, is that Tony McNulty said "An understanding of the British language is vital."

English did indeed evolve over a wide part of these islands. But it is not "the British language". If any language can accurately claim that description, it is Welsh.

And I'm not Welsh, so I have no axe to grind but the Axe of Truth.

 

[Dhimmi]

...

 

[TeeJay]

The point, though, is that Tony McNulty said "An understanding of the British language is vital."

English did indeed evolve over a wide part of these islands. But it is not "the British language". If any language can accurately claim that description, it is Welsh.

And I'm not Welsh, so I have no axe to grind but the Axe of Truth.

Ok, so it all comes down to the use of "the"...

...I think it is possible that he was using 'British' instead of 'English' so as to cover all the recognised British languages. English and Welsh would therefore be sub-sets (logically if not linguistically) of the wider "British language". It doesn't really make much sense grammatically, but politicians are like that.

He definitely didn't say "An understanding of the English language is vital." did he?

 

[TeeJay]

I disagree there is or was but there's no way of knowing what it might have been aside from some stunning archaelogical find which isn't going to happen.
I think the most certain thing you could claim would be a similarity across humanity as a bare arsed early human banging a stick against a tree is the same whether it's in where we now call Mombassa or Basildon.

Well in that case all immigrants and emigrants are ok then!

 

[neprimerimye]

The British language is Welsh.
The Britons were the Celtic peoples who spoke the ancestor of Welsh. Welsh is the surviving form of that language.

English is a Germanic language brought in much later by the German tribes. It has since gone through changes and adaptations borrrowing from Norman French etc. But it is in no way "The British language".

Brythonic is the root language which evolved into Welsh, Cornish and Breton. It is extinct. Welsh is a language of Britain specifically of Wales.

English is language belonging to the German family of languages and evolved in what is now England and parts of southern Scotland. By the time it assumed a settled form recognisakle it was also the language of parts of Wales i might add. English is a langauge of Britain and is widespread globally.

The concept of a people or peoples known as The Celts is a myth. The term refers to a set of cultures and related languages. That is all.

There is no British language. There are only various languages native to Britain. English ahd Welsh are the most widely spoken of these languages.

The facts make of them what you will.

 

[pilchardman]

He definitely didn't say "An understanding of the English language is vital." did he?

No, but that's what he meant. And that's what he should have said.

He may have been trying not to upset the Scots (etc), but he got it all wrong. I speak English with a Scots accent, and the odd Scots word and syntax/grammatical structure thrown in. But basically English. Definately not British.

 

[TeeJay]

No, but that's what he meant. And that's what he should have said.

I disagree that's what he meant.

He probably knew full well that the citizen tests can be conducted in English, Scottish Gaelic, or Welsh. Instead he just said "British".

 

[pilchardman]

I disagree that's what he meant.

Really? Bizarre.

In that case he should have said "a British language". But then this thread wouldn't need to exist.

 

[neprimerimye]

True.

But the people labelled Britons by the Romans were the ones here when the Romans labelled them. Oddly enough. So it is their language that is the British Language, not the (unknown) language of the Pre-British inhabitants. Funnily.

I don't remember saying anything about who was original, just who the Britons were.

The peoples living south of the Antonine Wall spoke languages which have been identified as speaking both P and Q celtic languages. Thus the Parisi would not have been able to talk directly to the Silures for example.

There was then no single group who consciously identified themselves as being Britons. That term is an invention of the Romans.

Brythonic is the term given to the language which most 'Britons' belonging to P Celtic speaking peoples would have spoken variants of. Given the relative lack of communication between the antipodes of the region this languge was spoken in it is thought that peoples speaking it would have been speaking languages more different than Modern Welsh and Breton are today.

Ethnically the britons are not only the ancestors of the Welsh but of the English. Fact is the German and Viking settlers did not engage in ethnic cleaning. They simply killed the males of ther ruling strata and stole their wives and subjects. Settlement being heavier on the east coast of course.

 

[pilchardman]

The peoples living south of the Antonine Wall spoke languages which have been identified as speaking both P and Q celtic languages. Thus the Parisi would not have been able to talk directly to the Silures for example.

There was then no single group who consciously identified themselves as being Britons. That term is an invention of the Romans.

Brythonic is the term given to the language which most 'Britons' belonging to P Celtic speaking peoples would have spoken variants of. Given the relative lack of communication between the antipodes of the region this languge was spoken in it is thought that peoples speaking it would have been speaking languages more different than Modern Welsh and Breton are today.

Ethnically the britons are not only the ancestors of the Welsh but of the English. Fact is the German and Viking settlers did not engage in ethnic cleaning. They simply killed the males of ther ruling strata and stole their wives and subjects. Settlement being heavier on the east coast of course.

Indeed.

But for the purposes of this discussion the salient section is: "Brythonic is the term given to the language which most 'Britons' belonging to P Celtic speaking peoples would have spoken variants of."

 

[Dhimmi]

...

 

[TeeJay]

Really? Bizarre.

In that case he should have said "a British language". But then this thread wouldn't need to exist.

He is the minister responsible for the rules, so of course he would know that English, Scottish Gaelic and Welsh are all equally valid. Why is it "bizarre" that he replaced this mouthful with "British"?

The fact that he said "the" instead of "a" is not bizarre either - as I said he is a politician, used to speaking in sound bites. They are often sloppy with their grammar for the sake of style.

I have also noticed that he lists "gaelic games" as one of his passtimes/interests. I really doubt he would not be aware of this issue and the details of the very rules that he has himself drawn up.

 

[TeeJay]

Well I'm not neccessarily convinced of that, in a "modern" world everything is so much more complicated than it needs be. The odd part about the UK is we as a whole seem now quite happy with those who have historically come here behind a sword's point (Romans, Danes, Normans etc), but furious with anyone who comes here peacefully today.

I don't agree that "we as a whole" are "furious" with anyone.

(ps I am an "immigrant" as I was born overseas)

 

[pilchardman]

Why is it "bizarre" that he replaced this mouthful with "British"?

No, I meant it is bizarre that you should think he meant "a British language". It never crossed my mind that that's what he meant.

 

[Dhimmi]

...

 

[TeeJay]

No, I meant it is bizarre that you should think he meant "a British language". It never crossed my mind that that's what he meant.

So you really didn't know that people could take the test in welsh and scottish gaelic as well as english? I knew this and so did the person saying it. To me this indicates that he deliberately said "British" rather than "English".

Why didn't this cross your mind?

 

[pilchardman]

So you really didn't know that people could take the test in welsh and scottish gaelic as well as english?

No, that I knew.

 

[Isambard]

<devil's advocate>
If a (larger) community of Hindi, Punjabi or Urdu speakers built itself up (probably) in urban Wales would there be the same support from Plaid and their assocaites for multi-lingual electricity bills?

 

[Karac]

<devil's advocate>
If a (larger) community of Hindi, Punjabi or Urdu speakers built itself up (probably) in urban Wales would there be the same support from Plaid and their assocaites for multi-lingual electricity bills?

Dont see why not-in East London Councils and NHS trusts produce bills and leaflets in a dozen or more languages-its not a problem in the age of the poota.

 

[niclas]

Devil's advocate? Great, that's all we need...

Why are there so many people on this thread missing the point so spectacularly?

The Labour politician was talking about "the British language" - not "a" and not "languages". I submit, your honour, that he was either


(a) an unthinking Brit who can't work out the difference between English and British, even when we're talking about a language

or

(b) an unthinking Brit imperialist who can work out the difference but doesn't give a damn.

(Funny how they know the difference when the English cricket team's winning)

 

[neprimerimye]

Devil's advocate? Great, that's all we need...

Why are there so many people on this thread missing the point so spectacularly?

The Labour politician was talking about "the British language" - not "a" and not "languages". I submit, your honour, that he was either


(a) an unthinking Brit who can't work out the difference between English and British, even when we're talking about a language

or

(b) an unthinking Brit imperialist who can work out the difference but doesn't give a damn.

(Funny how they know the difference when the English cricket team's winning)

Niclas I suspect that just about everyone on the Wales board agress with you that saying british when one means English is dumb shit and that this particular Nu Labourrite hack is reflecting his unconscious imperialist assumptions when he mistakes British for English. But really who gives a shit? Really why get all worked up over some stupid comment? Its only hot air lad.

PS Is cricket the game played in the Summer that is even more boring than that rugby game the morons play?

 

[TeeJay]

I submit, your honour, that he was either


(a) an unthinking Brit who can't work out the difference between English and British, even when we're talking about a language

or

(b) an unthinking Brit imperialist who can work out the difference but doesn't give a damn.

(Funny how they know the difference when the English cricket team's winning)

"They"?

Isn't this guy of Scottish origin ffs!

Of course he fucking knows the difference - he wrote a policy that allows a choice of Welsh, Scots Gaelic or English in his new "tests".

Why the fuck would he not know the difference if he drafted the fucking thing?

edit: ...your *honour*

 

[Isambard]

Devil's advocate? Great, that's all we need...

Maybe you'd be better off THINKING for yourself sometime rather than just singing off one Eisteddfod song sheet.

Wanker nu-Labour politician is silly comment shocker!

 

[lewislewis]

<devil's advocate>
If a (larger) community of Hindi, Punjabi or Urdu speakers built itself up (probably) in urban Wales would there be the same support from Plaid and their assocaites for multi-lingual electricity bills?

Yes its already happening