Illegal blocking of Mobile phones in the classroom

[Fuchs66]

Easy until they start taking one another's mobiles. "Sir, he's got my phone" and so on.

Measures against this happening aren't difficult at all.

 

[newme]

Meaning what hundreds of pupils having to check phones in and out every single morning they attend. Someone to watch over this process, implemtenting some form of protection to ensure people get the right phone back, dealing with the hassle if one does go missing when technically in the schools possession. Does sound like a timesaver for whats generally overworked teachers.

 

[berniedicters]

Measures against this happening aren't difficult at all.

I find it interesting that it's so enormously difficult to manage the "problem" of kids misusing mobiles in school that we have to implement draconian policies to deal with it...yet when it comes to managing the liability for several thousand of pounds' worth of equipment we've just confiscated from our class, it's suddenly easy.

That probably sounds more cynical than I meant it to, but this counter-intuitiveness infects far too many aspects of our education system - we're always happy to demand respect but not show it, or to expect trust while we respond with cynicism and suspicion, and so on...

A lot of the toxicity I see in the school environment is a product of that environment, not of the kids. Schools where bullying is a problem have bullying embedded in the culture; similarly schools where discipline doesn't seem to be working are often schools that have given themselves so many rules to enforce that they're failing to actually enforce even the most basic ones. But all the time we insist that it's the children - the ones who are there to learn, and the last ones we should be expecting to know better - who are getting it wrong. Not us. Oh, no, perish the thought!

 

[berniedicters]

Meaning what hundreds of pupils having to check phones in and out every single morning they attend. Someone to watch over this process, implemtenting some form of protection to ensure people get the right phone back, dealing with the hassle if one does go missing when technically in the schools possession. Does sound like a timesaver for whats generally overworked teachers.

I also think that children in school spend far too much time looking at their watches. We have school bells, and even some clocks, so I can't see why a child would need a watch. Same applies to games, non-school books and stationery beyond the minimum required. It's well known that a biro can be used to kill, so I think school policy should, with immediate effect, ban the ownership of any more than one pen plus spare. No child should be reading anything other than schoolbooks - they're here to learn, after all, not amuse themselves, so we'll have those, too, thanks. Oh, and any chocolate bars found in lunch boxes, or for that matter snacks with a fibre content lower than 2%, will be confiscated and can be collected after school, too. Similarly money - you can now use your SmartCard(tm) for paying all library fines, buying school lunches, etc., so no money will be permitted to be carried on school premises either...

 

[Fuchs66]

I find it interesting that it's so enormously difficult to manage the "problem" of kids misusing mobiles in school that we have to implement draconian policies to deal with it...yet when it comes to managing the liability for several thousand of pounds' worth of equipment we've just confiscated from our class, it's suddenly easy.

It is IMO difficult to manage hundreds of "individual" kids, individually, it's much easier and fairer to have 1 rule for all and banning mobiles isn't exactly "draconian". Liability is easy, if there is a real need to have a mobile before or after classes then the parents provide a written reason and sign a waiver form meaning that they do not hold the school responsible for any damage or loss.

That probably sounds more cynical than I meant it to, but this counter-intuitiveness infects far too many aspects of our education system - we're always happy to demand respect but not show it, or to expect trust while we respond with cynicism and suspicion, and so on...

I said before respect goes both ways, disrupting lessons (in this case by using mobiles) shows neither respect to the staff nor fellow pupils.

A lot of the toxicity I see in the school environment is a product of that environment, not of the kids. Schools where bullying is a problem have bullying embedded in the culture; similarly schools where discipline doesn't seem to be working are often schools that have given themselves so many rules to enforce that they're failing to actually enforce even the most basic ones. But all the time we insist that it's the children - the ones who are there to learn, and the last ones we should be expecting to know better - who are getting it wrong. Not us. Oh, no, perish the thought!

I see one of the main problems as being a lack of clear and enforced rules, if you say something one day and something else the day after then of course things get complicated and kids take the piss. Rules should be simple (ie No mobiles during lessons, no bullying, no exceptions) and easy to understand and apply. It is not difficult

 

[WouldBe]

And it doesn't help when Mum's trying to ring her little treasure to say she's waiting for the ambulance to come (true story, usually about one every fortnight or so)

How did kids survive before mobile phones then?

You would phone the school and they would send someone to your classroom to either pass on a message or take you to the admin block where the news would be broken to you.


What happens when 'little treasure' is too busy farting about on the phone in class time for sick mum to get through to them?

 

[berniedicters]

It is IMO difficult to manage hundreds of "individual" kids, individually, it's much easier and fairer to have 1 rule for all and banning mobiles isn't exactly "draconian". Liability is easy, if there is a real need to have a mobile before or after classes then the parents provide a written reason and sign a waiver form meaning that they do not hold the school responsible for any damage or loss.

I wouldn't agree to waive my claim against a school which took a valuable piece of kit off my child and lost it. I think - and I see it with my own eyes, from both sides - that schools are, too often, becoming the tail that wags the dog. Yes, I know they also have to carry the can for a lot of failures in parenting, too, but there's too much of this "well, we're going to do this, and if you don't like it, you know what you can do" attitude going around. And I've seen enough of the way these places are run to lack a certain level of confidence in the goodwill and sometimes even competence of the senior management teams running them.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Measures against this happening aren't difficult at all.

Specifically?

 

[rioted]

- we're always happy to demand respect but not show it, or to expect trust while we respond with cynicism and suspicion, and so on...

I always have my phone turned off when I'm in a class. Why is it too much to expect the same of the students?

 

[rioted]

I also think that children in school spend far too much time looking at their watches.

But how does that impact on other pupils learning experience. Completely different from mobile use. More like uniform - I can't be arsed whether the kids are in uniform or not - what difference does it make?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yeah, Garf, I agree that mobiles are nowhere near as necessary as they're often painted, but that's a different debate. Whatever their utility, the point is that if you do stuff to kids that is patently "unfair" then you're teaching them that being "unfair" is a legitimate way to be when you have power. And the world's an unfair enough place as it is without encouraging people to grow up and make it worse, while saying (as you often hear teachers say), "well, it never did me any harm..."

how is it unfair?

kids should be using mobiles in class rooms period.

to do so is unfair to those others who would otherwise benefit from the education being provided...

by allowing them it's teaching the kids that selfishness is acceptable...

btw in case no ones told you life isn't fair part of gorwning up and becoming a functioning adult is to learn this lesson and how to deal with it...

 

[Fuchs66]

Specifically?

A labeling or box system and if all else fails opening the address book of said disputed mobile. As I said the only kids who should in this case be bringing their mobiles anywhere near the school would be those who could provide a valid reason for having them there (before or after classes) and a waiver form both signed by parents, so we shouldn't be talking about 100% of pupils having mobiles anyway.

 

[berniedicters]

I always have my phone turned off when I'm in a class. Why is it too much to expect the same of the students?

I don't think it is. Are we having a misunderstanding here?

But how does that impact on other pupils learning experience. Completely different from mobile use. More like uniform - I can't be arsed whether the kids are in uniform or not - what difference does it make?

Erm, should I have enclosed that whole post in [irony][/irony] tags to make it a bit clearer?

 

[Fuchs66]

I wouldn't agree to waive my claim against a school which took a valuable piece of kit off my child and lost it. I think - and I see it with my own eyes, from both sides - that schools are, too often, becoming the tail that wags the dog. Yes, I know they also have to carry the can for a lot of failures in parenting, too, but there's too much of this "well, we're going to do this, and if you don't like it, you know what you can do" attitude going around. And I've seen enough of the way these places are run to lack a certain level of confidence in the goodwill and sometimes even competence of the senior management teams running them.

Well then you'd make damn sure your kid doesn't take a mobile with him/her. If your kid loses a mobile through their own fuckwittery outside of the school it's also gone. How is setting a rule and applying it a case of the tail wagging the dog? So long as all parties are informed I cant see how anyone can complain.

 

[berniedicters]

how is it unfair?

kids should be using mobiles in class rooms period.

to do so is unfair to those others who would otherwise benefit from the education being provided...

by allowing them it's teaching the kids that selfishness is acceptable...

btw in case no ones told you life isn't fair part of gorwning up and becoming a functioning adult is to learn this lesson and how to deal with it...

I kind of expected that last sentence! And I agree - learning that life isn't fair is an important part of learning some pragmatism.

But I think the world is capable of providing plenty enough examples of "life isn't fair" without schoolteachers and heads feeling obliged to manufacture more...and in the process quite possibly teaching a rather different lesson, eg "if you get to a position of power and control, you get to dish out shit to people and tell them they'll like it". Type thing.

 

[berniedicters]

Well then you'd make damn sure your kid doesn't take a mobile with him/her. If your kid loses a mobile through their own fuckwittery outside of the school it's also gone. How is setting a rule and applying it a case of the tail wagging the dog? So long as all parties are informed I cant see how anyone can complain.

OK, I think we're just going to have to agree to differ. I can think of quite a few examples where a mobile has been necessary, but I have a feeling that no matter what I offer, you'll have a counter-argument ready to shoot it down in flames

Best we leave it there, then, and stay civilised, eh?

 

[Fuchs66]

OK, I think we're just going to have to agree to differ. I can think of quite a few examples where a mobile has been necessary, but I have a feeling that no matter what I offer, you'll have a counter-argument ready to shoot it down in flames

Best we leave it there, then, and stay civilised, eh?

Sorry if you feel attacked it wasn't my intention I was merely stressing certain points through my language. Just 1 more thing what situations would demand a kid to have a mobile in the classroom and couldn't be covered by other forms of communication eg schools own landline?

 

[berniedicters]

Sorry if you feel attacked it wasn't my intention I was merely stressing certain points through my language. Just 1 more thing what situations would demand a kid to have a mobile in the classroom and couldn't be covered by other forms of communication eg schools own landline?

OK, here's where I think we seem to be talking to cross purposes: I am talking about the principle of schools (and heads) feeling entitled to do what they damn well like, as nicely exemplified in the OP's example of a head installing illegal blocking equipment to stop kids using mobiles; you appear to be more interested in the practicalities of the specific case of children having mobiles in schools.

It's not even that I entirely disagree with you about that - up to a point - but that it's not actually my point.

OK, right now we're talking about mobiles. But we could be talking about bullying policies, uniform policy, the decision of a school to, at short notice, drop provision of a subject, or the way a school handles a critical incident such as the suicide of a pupil. These are all situations I have had first-hand experience of dealing with in the last six months, and there are examples in all cases of ways in which the same attitudes that prompted a headmaster in Canada to install illegal equipment were present and responsible for making a bad situation worse. Because, like it or not, this mobile issue is the tip of a very big iceberg, and one which touches profoundly on lives of people who, frankly, deserve better.

Schools - heads in particular - know that they can afford to make extremely draconian rules, and they will get away with it. What I find unpalatable is that, all too often, they make such rules, or take bad decisions, and then attempt to blame the pupils (or the parents, or whoever) for the fact that things have got bad. Let me give you an example, if it's not going off-topic too far.

A boy died in a school near here last year. It was sudden and unexpected. We'll leave aside the question of how the aftermath was handled - suffice it to say that the head botched it in about every way he possibly could have done. About the only decent thing he did was to agree that a memorial service would be held some weeks later in the school hall.

On the day of the memorial service, he decided that he would conduct a "uniform inspection" - this at a time when emotions were likely to be running high, and the potential for distress was at its greatest, especially since a lot of feelings were still raw, partly as a result of the way the death had been mishandled. So, back to the memorial service - one of the closest friends of the deceased was found, as a result of this inspection, to have been wearing shoes of the wrong colour, and was told, more or less at the door of the hall, that he would not be allowed to go in.

He was extremely upset. I don't know exactly what transpired after that, but he was taken to the HM's office by the headmaster, where he ended up trashing the place, and being suspended for 20 days.

Now there is a perfectly reasonable line of argument which says "well, if he'd worn the right colour shoes, hadn't kicked off at the head, etc., etc." none of this would have happened.

But none of it would have happened if that head had chosen not to make a draconian intervention like that at that particular time. That uniform inspection could have taken place a day earlier, or a day later. He could have handled the infraction more sensitively. I can only guess as to how he may have made the situation even worse in his office, because - obviously - I wasn't there.

The point is that that is one child - plus friends, and others who may have seen all this happening - who is at far greater risk of serious disaffection from school, authority in general, and society as a whole. Entirely, in my view, unnecessarily.

That is what I am getting at when I tried to use the example in the OP as a case in point of where schools are acting in bad faith when they are prepared to go outside the bounds of reasonable behaviour in order to "enforce the rules".

And, having said all that, and hoping that I haven't identified the school, any of the parties involved, I think that's really all I need to say on the matter on this thread. If the above doesn't make my position clear, I don't think anything else I could write ever will!

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I kind of expected that last sentence! And I agree - learning that life isn't fair is an important part of learning some pragmatism.

But I think the world is capable of providing plenty enough examples of "life isn't fair" without schoolteachers and heads feeling obliged to manufacture more...and in the process quite possibly teaching a rather different lesson, eg "if you get to a position of power and control, you get to dish out shit to people and tell them they'll like it". Type thing.

you're right the world is perfectly capable of provinding expamples of fiar and unfair treatment this however isn't one of them.

unless we are now dealing with a new rather fragile fey children...

 

[Fuchs66]

@agnesdavies

I dont disagree with what you wrote, I especially dont believe that a school or Head of school should unilaterally impose rules without proper consultations with parents (be aware I am refering to children here where the parents are the people to approach, 18+ YO are of course a different matter). As you say I am looking at the practicalities of this particular problem ie disruption of lessons with mobile phone use and I dont believe that a blanket ban on mobiles during lessons is "draconian" if proper consultation occurs.

E2A I still cant see any need for a child to have a mobile phone in lessons when other forms of communication exist.

 

[bluestreak]

Mobiles should be off in the classroom, but what does it say about the Heads ability to keep control if he has to resort to illegal jamming devices?

It's almost impossible to stop kids using mobile phones in the classroom. You can't take it off them, all you can do is keep on punishing them for it and hope that in the end they get so sick of lines and detention that they give up.

It should come from above, from the head and the PTC that mobiles are banned from the school and that any pupil caught with one will be given a detention or suspended. Then refuse to back down until the pro-mobile market gets enough votes on teh PTC the next yeat to rescind the ban.

Basically school discipline goes like this: all parents want strong discipline, but all of them also know that it's not their children that are the problem, so the discipline and rules should not apply to them. Therefore when young Jimmy complains that he can't follow what is going wrong because kids are pissing about the teachers should be sacked for not keeping order. Of course, if young Jimmy is punished for pissing about, it wasn't his fault and the teachers should be sacked for picking on the wrong kid, or being unable to keep control of the class, or teaching stuff that bores him so he pisses about.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

It's almost impossible to stop kids using mobile phones in the classroom. You can't take it off them, all you can do is keep on punishing them for it and hope that in the end they get so sick of lines and detention that they give up.

It should come from above, from the head and the PTC that mobiles are banned from the school and that any pupil caught with one will be given a detention or suspended. Then refuse to back down until the pro-mobile market gets enough votes on teh PTC the next yeat to rescind the ban.

Basically school discipline goes like this: all parents want strong discipline, but all of them also know that it's not their children that are the problem, so the discipline and rules should not apply to them. Therefore when young Jimmy complains that he can't follow what is going wrong because kids are pissing about the teachers should be sacked for not keeping order. Of course, if young Jimmy is punished for pissing about, it wasn't his fault and the teachers should be sacked for picking on the wrong kid, or being unable to keep control of the class, or teaching stuff that bores him so he pisses about.

no plurlease fink ov the 'hildren... it's wery unfair to the little lambikins for them to be tort finks at skools when they iz in the middle of dem txt smessages... innit geeze...

 

[berniedicters]

you're right the world is perfectly capable of provinding expamples of fiar and unfair treatment this however isn't one of them.

unless we are now dealing with a new rather fragile fey children...

We're not: kids today are no more fragile than we were. But we are learning that a lot of the fucked-up stuff we see in adults today has its roots in the way they were brought up as children. That's not to excuse anything, just to recognise how we might do it better.

Not that, going on the current showing, there's too much danger of that...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

We're not: kids today are no more fragile than we were. But we are learning that a lot of the fucked-up stuff we see in adults today has its roots in the way they were brought up as children. That's not to excuse anything, just to recognise how we might do it better.

Not that, going on the current showing, there's too much danger of that...

why don't we focus on our outer adult rather than on the inner child?

see no one has a blemish free childhood and whilst no one sane want's kids putting themselves in extreme danger we accept that a certain amount of exposure to danger is a good thing which teachs them boundaries etc...

in this instance i'm afraid it's all about the rights of the child (indivually) coming before the rights of the children (collectively).

introducing a system which allows chidlren as children to entirely reject the authority of the teacher role or even the right of other children to learn without blaring out tinny music over shit speakers and bad mp3s or text alerts going off or even calls being made and received in a class room over rides any indivdual right...

the thing here is balance and at present due to legislation and current fink ov dem hildren mentality it places to much emphasis on the indivual childs rights over the collective right... in many cases this is correct to do so but in terms of creating the best enviroment for learning it most certainly isn't...

again learning the appropreate behaviour for the appropreate occasion is part of being an adult.

also beign part of an adult is recognising that behaviour which you entertained and undertook as a child was never acceptable but is no longer acceptable as an adult even if you got away with it as a child...

we don't need to constantly compartmentalise life to the nth degree, seperating the expected behaviour for children from that of adults is a poor subsititue to actually teaching people to be responsible for their own actions and their ongoing behaviour....

again all adult, not present in children...

when you get to adult hood it's about not blaming your previous experinces for your situation but taking responsilbity for your own actions going forward...

it's just how it is...

maybe this lesson is one they need to learn...

 

[mrs quoad]

These jammers should be standard fittings in all Schools, Cinemas, public transport and so on.

Fucking things. I loathe mine.

My Institute was built just before mobiles became popular.

Thanks to its rather interesting architecture, it happens to be a near-perfect Faraday cage

Bliss.

 

[Pingu]

why don't we focus on our outer adult rather than on the inner child?

see no one has a blemish free childhood and whilst no one sane want's kids putting themselves in extreme danger we accept that a certain amount of exposure to danger is a good thing which teachs them boundaries etc...

in this instance i'm afraid it's all about the rights of the child (indivually) coming before the rights of the children (collectively).

introducing a system which allows chidlren as children to entirely reject the authority of the teacher role or even the right of other children to learn without blaring out tinny music over shit speakers and bad mp3s or text alerts going off or even calls being made and received in a class room over rides any indivdual right...

the thing here is balance and at present due to legislation and current fink ov dem hildren mentality it places to much emphasis on the indivual childs rights over the collective right... in many cases this is correct to do so but in terms of creating the best enviroment for learning it most certainly isn't...

again learning the appropreate behaviour for the appropreate occasion is part of being an adult.

also beign part of an adult is recognising that behaviour which you entertained and undertook as a child was never acceptable but is no longer acceptable as an adult even if you got away with it as a child...

we don't need to constantly compartmentalise life to the nth degree, seperating the expected behaviour for children from that of adults is a poor subsititue to actually teaching people to be responsible for their own actions and their ongoing behaviour....

again all adult, not present in children...

when you get to adult hood it's about not blaming your previous experinces for your situation but taking responsilbity for your own actions going forward...

it's just how it is...

maybe this lesson is one they need to learn...

Gath in sensible post shoka

eta and imo some good points made

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Gath in sensible post shoka

eta and imo some good points made

dont' worry i'll ruin it later with some suck bollicks...

 

[RubyBlue]

These jammers should be standard fittings in all Schools, Cinemas, public transport and so on.

Fucking things. I loathe mine.

I love mine - wouldn't be without it but, yeah, I agree - there are many places they should not be allowed - schools, cinemas are 2 of them - not sure about public transport - if only people could learn to use these things with some consideration

 

[likesfish]

issue teachers with hammers for destruction of mobiles used in classrooms

 

[madzone]

Yeah, Garf, I agree that mobiles are nowhere near as necessary as they're often painted, but that's a different debate. Whatever their utility, the point is that if you do stuff to kids that is patently "unfair" then you're teaching them that being "unfair" is a legitimate way to be when you have power. And the world's an unfair enough place as it is without encouraging people to grow up and make it worse, while saying (as you often hear teachers say), "well, it never did me any harm..."

Oh agnes, you seem like a really nice person in all other respects and I don't mean this the way it's inevitably going to come out but I hope my kids don't have someone like you teaching them how things should be 'fair'. If people spent more time just fucking getting on with their lives and focussing on proper injustice (not whether some head master has played a trick on some schoolkids) the world might just be a slightly better place. I am sick of kids whining on about what's FAIR. Get your fucking head down and your ass up and get on with it ffs.