Ignored, angry and anxious: the world of the white working class!
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Donna Ferentes said:
The sad fact is that some of us have been complaining about the lack of building social homes, well me personally since atleast the start of the right to buy scheme, as even as far ago as then you could see what would happen.
Now here it is in plain fucking sight and the political cocks are talking around the bullshit.
Why can't they just stand up and say, yes we pledge to build X number of new homes, instead of talking bullshit rhetoric about what they have already done.
You obviously not done enough have you? You have had nearly 10 years and its got a fucking lot worse, but you want to tell me about what you done?
Does the doctor when explaining to the family why their relative died, go on about what he did? Oh but I did a great bypass, it was amazing, really good work, I could have done more OBVIOUSLY but I didn't so your relative is dead. Good day.
Don't tell me about what you done, I don't care, it isn't enough, in fact it was a load of old hot air bollox like most of what you say, you spin doctoring stain on the face of society.
Why don't you tell us what you going to do?
Still trying to work out how you can make it profitable for someone? cause that seems to be about the only reason you do anything anymore, is there someway we can sell it to our accountancy and consultant friends, lets get a PFI in and spread the wealth around the same small inclusive group of investors.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
It seems obvious to me that the reason why 'white ' working class are referenced by some rather than the working class as a whole is due to the lack of representation. In political circles, stupid as it is to homogenise black people or Muslims or gays into one lump, it is what tends to happen. Referencing the white working class is an extension of this.
It makes me laugh when it appears so many here are prepared to find the first 3 acceptable but not the last one.
It makes me laugh when it appears so many here are prepared to find the first 3 acceptable but not the last one.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Whilst I agree with you toa large extent there Harold, in the terms of this article - and many others on similar subjects - it is a complete misnomer. Particularly in East London which has never had a homogenous single racial origin. It's use of the phrase 'white working-class' to describe everyone but (essentially) new immigrants of the last few years that is complete bollocks.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
I've not read Collins' book but in terms of the TV show which I did see, I would find it hard to argue with a lot of what he said. Particularly with things like identifying by community/nationality.
I don't think identifying these things along race lines is the way forward but as long as the mainstream political class do so, I'm glad somebody bought it onto terrestrial TV, howveer crude people thought it was delivered.
I don't think identifying these things along race lines is the way forward but as long as the mainstream political class do so, I'm glad somebody bought it onto terrestrial TV, howveer crude people thought it was delivered.
It's clear from the letters page(what a brilliant letter) that debate is at last starting, we on the left, etc, have to make sure its on our terms and not used by the right/bnp, etc.
btw, wonder what the SWP/Respect take wil be on this, will Lyndsey German et al be making interventions.
btw, wonder what the SWP/Respect take wil be on this, will Lyndsey German et al be making interventions.
Stobart Stopper
Well-Known Member
This is nothing new. it's been like it for years. Old-style Cockney's like the ones on my mum's side of the family are always suspicious of other races/cultures.
Even now, I still hear "all these immigrants, taking our omes/school places" etc etc.
But it's ok when they need a doctor, who just happens to be an immigrant himself. Then they treat him like their best friend. It's all a load of hot air bollocks.
Even now, I still hear "all these immigrants, taking our omes/school places" etc etc.
But it's ok when they need a doctor, who just happens to be an immigrant himself. Then they treat him like their best friend. It's all a load of hot air bollocks.
There was something along the same lines on BBC London News tonight. But, as was pointed out, if the welfare state is aimed at the poorest / least advantaged and if immigrant groups are over-represented in those categories, then it is inevitable that the immigrant groups will get the largest share.Stobart Stopper said:
Short of differentiating on the basis of race / time served in the UK I can't see how any system can be different. We just have to learn to understand it.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
SKimmed through this thread and have to agree with most posters on here -
The damage done to the working classes in this country (white or otherwise) is down to twenty years of mass unemployment, the acompanying swingeing cuts in welfare provsion (particualrly in housing) and the withering of the trade union movement. This has created a situaiton where the people in the community with means (financial or skill wise) got out and the shortage of housing meant they were replaced by the most needy. You now have a situation on many social housing estates where passive dependance on benefits and a culture of zero expectation has been institutionalsied with two, three or four generations of the same family mired in poverty, ignorance and lacking in any useful skills. If anything this situation is more pronounced on the all white estates - possibly as many immigrant communites tend to bring comparitively higher level of skills and ambition with them (this is particuarly true of the much resented influx of refugees).
For my sins Im currently working as a community worker in high poverty areas in west yorkshire. Its all about helping communtiy groups to provide social provision (i.e education, youth activites) in their own areas. TBH its mostly a waste of time - as there there isn't anything resembling a coherent 'community' out there and you're tied to a huge beuracracy (the council) that is operating on the principle that 'we know whats best for the plebs'.
The only realisitic way of reversing the damage is a huge increase in benefit levels, accompanied by far greater housing, health and education provison - essentially a comprehensive reverse of the last 30 years of social policy.
The damage done to the working classes in this country (white or otherwise) is down to twenty years of mass unemployment, the acompanying swingeing cuts in welfare provsion (particualrly in housing) and the withering of the trade union movement. This has created a situaiton where the people in the community with means (financial or skill wise) got out and the shortage of housing meant they were replaced by the most needy. You now have a situation on many social housing estates where passive dependance on benefits and a culture of zero expectation has been institutionalsied with two, three or four generations of the same family mired in poverty, ignorance and lacking in any useful skills. If anything this situation is more pronounced on the all white estates - possibly as many immigrant communites tend to bring comparitively higher level of skills and ambition with them (this is particuarly true of the much resented influx of refugees).
For my sins Im currently working as a community worker in high poverty areas in west yorkshire. Its all about helping communtiy groups to provide social provision (i.e education, youth activites) in their own areas. TBH its mostly a waste of time - as there there isn't anything resembling a coherent 'community' out there and you're tied to a huge beuracracy (the council) that is operating on the principle that 'we know whats best for the plebs'.
The only realisitic way of reversing the damage is a huge increase in benefit levels, accompanied by far greater housing, health and education provison - essentially a comprehensive reverse of the last 30 years of social policy.
Stobart Stopper
Well-Known Member
But the white working classes have always whined, it's just a trait they have.
The truth is, a larger majority of them than ever before live quite comfortably, compared to their grandparents, even their grandparents' generation.
Go any day of the week to Lakeside to see working class Essex/East End man spending his new found wealth (ok so most of it is on credit but what the hell?)
What the white, chav working class doesn't particularly like is hard work and long hours. This is why hard-working Asian people often end up making so much money, they put the hours in.
My mum's ex neighbour came to the UK with fuck all, just a loan to rent a shop. That was 26 years ago. He worked his fingers to the bone, often working up to 18 hours a day at the beginning. Now, his 3 girls are at university and he's about to retire, having worked hard enough to buy a number of houses which he rents out for income.
The truth is, a larger majority of them than ever before live quite comfortably, compared to their grandparents, even their grandparents' generation.
Go any day of the week to Lakeside to see working class Essex/East End man spending his new found wealth (ok so most of it is on credit but what the hell?)
What the white, chav working class doesn't particularly like is hard work and long hours. This is why hard-working Asian people often end up making so much money, they put the hours in.
My mum's ex neighbour came to the UK with fuck all, just a loan to rent a shop. That was 26 years ago. He worked his fingers to the bone, often working up to 18 hours a day at the beginning. Now, his 3 girls are at university and he's about to retire, having worked hard enough to buy a number of houses which he rents out for income.
Stobart Stopper said:
My partner, hopefully soon, to be with me in this country, could be desicribed as white and working class, even though she comes from a family of the Intelligentsia in her home country, but she will be an immiigrant. And, as a white working class person, I will be glad to have her here with me. I really don't see what point you have made, except to blurt out prejudice which really does not reflect the realties that working class people have to put up with. You have racialised this by referring to white working class people as lazy chav whingers, which is very untrue. That is a fair few million pieces of scum there, you so obviously despise. A group that is contrasted unfavourably with another racial group, who are part of the same class.
As for a trait, can you give evidence of this? Seems like going into Eugenincs type territory here...I am an unskilled worker, and the white working class people I work with and live with, are compelled to work long hours, as well as unpaid overtime, and to work hard at their jobs due to their responsibilities as parents etc. I would rather show solidarity with my non-white work collegues by common bonds, through attempts at unionisation, than to pander to or identify with, or define my life in line with the unconscious prejudices, dishonest snobbery and fear of the liberal middle classes.
What you have posted is is all very divisive and is not really true to the millions of working class people who do not see their problems being born from or a reaction to racial difference, but rather economic oppression. Why the middle classes see fit to colour (forgive the pun) people like myself as racially motivated in talking about issues that affect my day to day living and well being I do not know entirely. But I am not daft enough let that disuade me from seeing class as being the biggest issue here. It is the liberal middle classes that have racialised debate about the state of lower class life in Britain. Racism exists everywhere, but until a recognition of the views held by working class people as to the economic reasons of community breakdown are taken seriously in any debate, then the longer we will be labelled and judged and looked down upon.
FruitandNut
New Member
I am 'white', male and over 40 - HELP!!!!! 
belboid said:
That isn't really the point they were making tho was it?
The point was that they now have no voice. While they weren't all white in yesteryear, it could and apparently is, being argued that at that time, they held a lot more power and had a larger voice then they currently do.
At the moment when my borough seeks consultation it does so with every 'community' group going, which seem to be born out of a need for a voice by the minority communities.
You going to go join a White Local Group? Cause I ain't about to, cause it sounds like nasty right wing racism. I am not about to go join the Muslim Local Group, or the African Local Group, or even the Eastern European Local Group either.
The argument isn't that in yesteryear everyone was white, but in yesteryear the working class had unions that they were affliated with that were irrelevent to colour, they had a powerful voice.
If you are white and living in a run down area, who speaks for you now?
Don't say you all white anyway, a lot of these places have MPs that are not white. Councillers who are not white. It is not like the white hold all the positions of power in local authorities so white people don't need a voice.
I am the minority being white where I live, Tower Hamlets is another borough where white is the minority.
I am not saying I am being oppressed here, but I think the article has a point that the poor working class, atleast of very inner city places, currently have no political power at all. They don't hold enough votes to swing any elections, they don't have any groups speaking on their behalf and there is no affliation to groups that do have lobbying power.
William of Walworth said:
No- not respect supporter. Yes- respect are stronger elsewhere- but in the Millwall By-election in September 2004 they polled 27% and came second-this in what i think is still a majority white ward. I would say that a number of people who were previously looking to the BNP as a political alternative, are now looking to Respect.
Fong said:
But all this stuff about councillors and groups from various minorities rests on one big assumption - that these people and groups produce benefits for their various clientele.
I think that's highly contestible - my experience in Birmingham is that apart from a bit of a feeling that 'at least our community is recognised' - (which is important) very little changes as a result of having Asian or Black councillors.
That was clear in Lozells after the riots, there is a crisis of leadership in many inner city communities. The only reason it's less recognised in the non-white community is cos of the visibility of non-white councillors etc.
I'd say that both white and non-white working class communities get dumped on, and have very little effective political power.
Added in edit: there are ways to get a voice in consultation, through tenants groups, local forums, trade unions etc. If these networks are weak in some areas, then where's the justice in blaming communities that have stronger networks throught the mosques or temples? And i'd still argue that the much hallowed consultation has very little effect on what actually happens.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Fong said:
who are 'they' here? The saemas the next 'they'? Sorry, but what you are writing is very confused here.
No one is denying that the working-class, of all colours, are being deined representation, or even any pretense of it. That is true no matter what the colour or racial origin of the members of that class - even the ones who can go to a 'Bangladeshi Cultural Association' or whatever, as they are overwhelmingly run my middle-class people with middle-class concerns, same as the organisations that are meant to represent 'white' working-class people.
If you are Bangladeshi and in a run down area, or if you are black lad dealing a bit of dope on the sly, or if you are a chave or a scally - there is no one to speak out for you, because you are not a member of the 'respectable' middle-class, makes no odds what colour you are. There never really was either, Labour just did a better job of pretending then.
But what of the (I think) central point, that wihte working-class feel totally ewxcluded and its the fault of...the welfare state! It is very sad that some people simply see the words 'white working class' and 'ignored' anmd are then willing to buy any old shit that goes with it - like this article. The article, and, assuminhg it is a fair description of what is inside it, the book are both utterly reactionary justifications for further neo-liberalism, the thing which is actually the bloody cause of most of the problems in the first place!
To the, very small, extent to which recent immigrants have got some influence with local councils (yee ha - influence with the least powerful tier of government!) well fuckng good for them. To say councils make no effort to communicate with white w-c groups simply isn't true (not in my not inconsiderable experience anyway) anyway, the problem is that they arent there! Whilst umpteen factors have led to thier being a Bangladeshi Cultural Association whilst the local Tenants & Residents Association has collapsed, if that is how it is, that is how it is.
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
It's curious how, when white people are in a minority in a borough, there's suddenly a crisis of representation, whereas when non-white people are (as they usually are) there is not.
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
Donna Ferentes said:
If you're trying to accuse someone of something, then who and with what?
Donna Ferentes
jubliado
Professor Plum with the rope in the study. Eh?Harold Hill said:
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