Ignored, angry and anxious: the world of the white working class!

[ViolentPanda]

Not really. It's just that I'm leaving the country soon and am in a mood to reflect on what has happened in my forty years here and how things have changed, a topic I was talking about with friends over the weekend: and one of the things that has changed significantly is the virtual disappearance of the world of organised labour from, if you will, the everyday public conversation. As that world was the one which I understood and the only one which seemed to me to give meaning to the things in which I believe, there is a certain lack of purpose in life as a result and a certain feeling of not really belonging, of not having any roots any more.

I sort of know what you mean. I left Britain in 1980 and served abroad until 1983, and it was very much like stepping into a different world, so much had changed politically in such a short time, because although organised labour was having a hard time when I left, it was halfway onto it's knees by the time I came back, and only went downhill from there. Add to that the knock-on effects on social life that the smashing of organised labour as a political force had, and what we're left with is those who say "fuck you Jack, I'm alright", those who say "listen to the government, they know best", and the neddies who look to blame anyone but themselves for the way they're thrown on the employment scrapheap.

By the way, the reason I thought you might have been annoyed was that you made a few (very out of character) spelling errors.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I sort of know what you mean. I left Britain in 1980 and served abroad until 1983, and it was very much like stepping into a different world, so much had changed politically in such a short time, because although organised labour was having a hard time when I left, it was halfway onto it's knees by the time I came back, and only went downhill from there.

Apart from the miners' strike of course...

By the way, the reason I thought you might have been annoyed was that you made a few (very out of character) spelling errors.

Ah well that's because after having had decent coffee in Spain I can't drink that instant shite any more. However, no caffeine, no spelling...

 

[ViolentPanda]

So is it back to a monothought clique then, or can we still have decent intelleligent discussion, without any emergence of a 'racism radar' appearing.
I happen to find this notion that in even discussing an issue that affects the white working class, accusations of 'racialising the issue', (TM SWP, Hampstead Liberals) start to fly.

The people who come out with that sort of cant generally do it for a reason, though.
In my experience it's as much about expressing a spurious or semi-spurious solidarity in the hopes of buying credibility as it is about genuine engagement with minority issues, none of which is helped by the hold identity politics still has in sections of the polity.

It may surprise some people but many of my political ideas have bben challenged, developed, changed and transformed by reading here on urban and the various links. I certainly feel more confident about raising 'contentious issues, that in the past have been 'shut down' or drowned out of the debate.

I think we all (with one or two obvious exceptions) benefit from debate, from taking in new information, and from testing our arguments.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Apart from the miners' strike of course...

Yeah, but although battles were won, the war was lost. I wish it hadn't have been, because the bastards scented blood and cried havoc, but what is done is done, and the way is closed.

Ah well that's because after having had decent coffee in Spain I can't drink that instant shite any more. However, no caffeine, no spelling...

I'm like that, unfortunately my requirement for an engaged brain is codeine rather than caffeine.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I should say that my alarm bells start going off as soon as anybody invokes the term "white working class". Combine it with "forgot" or "ignored" and it's like Pearl Harbour.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I should say that my alarm bells start going off as soon as anybody invokes the term "white working class". Combine it with "forgot" or "ignored" and it's like Pearl Harbour.

I can understand that. I seem to have set a few perimeter alarms off using the expression "white middle class" on another thread.

To me there is an occasional need to differentiate the disparate elements that make up today's "working class", but I would be suspicious if it were being used as a rallying call by any political grouping.

 

[treelover]

Well, contrary to reports that is certainly not what I was saying, as i'm sure you know VP. I just think that certain areas of discussion have somehow been pushed off limits. the guardian article and the report are now in the public domain, so i just think we should talk about it, not just dismiss it*. This is exactly the sort of work Keenan Malik is doing, i think long term such open discussions will lead to much better relations and help neuter the bnp, etc.

*particualry as we know now it may have an hidden agenda.


btw, wow, not so defensive wasn't aimed at you, i read the Guardian online all the time...

To me there is an occasional need to differentiate the disparate elements that make up today's "working class", but I would be suspicious if it were being used as a rallying call by any political grouping.

 

[shagnasty]

whilst the white working classes anger can be turned to the ethnic working class then the truly guilty will be let of the hook

 

[William of Walworth]

I should say that my alarm bells start going off as soon as anybody invokes the term "white working class". Combine it with "forgot" or "ignored" and it's like Pearl Harbour.

Absolutely!!

Treelover -- I appreciate my rant at you last night was somewhat harsh, I know of your excellent work in Sheffield grappling against the madness of the welfare state as currently administered.

One of the arguments in the Bunting article that I'm at a loss to understand is the idea that it was wrong to move towards a needs-based welfare state -- which is what Bunting (or the research she's quoting? Must reread) appear to be arguing against.

What other ideal of a welfare state is there though, other than a needs based one?? In making this alleged move towards needs, what was being abandoned or superseded??

And if needs don't encompass ALL those in need (any class, colour, etc.) how does it select or prioritise??

(I appreciate that the way incapacity benefit -- to pick a random example!! -- works at the moment in practice, is very far from perfectly tailored to needs, to say the least! But I'm more interested in ideal goals).

 

[William of Walworth]

I suppose I find it hard to see race as being relevant to the above questions.

 

[JimPage]

from the review- a flawed analysis. the absence of the BNP in inner east london either by way of organisation or voter strength should relegate this into theory only.

if anything- the fact that the voters of millwall can turn from the BNP to Respect in just a few years woudl suggest that far from being forgotten- the white working class in london are simply no longer seeing themselves as white working class, but simply as workig class

 

[Kid_Eternity]

if anything- the fact that the voters of millwall can turn from the BNP to Respect in just a few years woudl suggest that far from being forgotten- the white working class in london are simply no longer seeing themselves as white working class, but simply as workig class

How do you know it's the same voters?

 

[William of Walworth]

How do you know it's the same voters?

Good question, that BNP Councillor was elected (with a low turnout, mind) on the Isle of Dogs, parts of which are white-dominated**. Respect's main strength is surely elsewhere in the Borough??

**Not sufficient, but probably a necessary component ...

Are you Respect yourself, Jim?

 

[belboid]

from what I recall, there has been a fair shift of voters there too. Indeed, given the low level of turnout in local elections - then and now - it is perfectly possible that, even tho Rahman picked up quite a few votes from white workers apparently, there was not one single person who voted for both. I'd doubt that was entirely true, but there is certainly no evidence of a large scale shift from one to the other.

 

[BarryB]

from the review- a flawed analysis. the absence of the BNP in inner east london either by way of organisation or voter strength should relegate this into theory only.

if anything- the fact that the voters of millwall can turn from the BNP to Respect in just a few years woudl suggest that far from being forgotten- the white working class in london are simply no longer seeing themselves as white working class, but simply as workig class

I doubt that many people have switched from BNP to Respect. What has happened since the BNP win in the bye election is that there is a lot less white working class voters in the ward and a lot more Asian (and probably black) voters in the ward. And the area has attracted many middle class people. Which is precisely why the Tories won the Millwall bye election in 2004.

BarryB

 

[mutley]

Absolutely!!

Treelover -- I appreciate my rant at you last night was somewhat harsh, I know of your excellent work in Sheffield grappling against the madness of the welfare state as currently administered.

One of the arguments in the Bunting article that I'm at a loss to understand is the idea that it was wrong to move towards a needs-based welfare state -- which is what Bunting (or the research she's quoting? Must reread) appear to be arguing against.

What other ideal of a welfare state is there though, other than a needs based one?? In making this alleged move towards needs, what was being abandoned or superseded??

And if needs don't encompass ALL those in need (any class, colour, etc.) how does it select or prioritise??

(I appreciate that the way incapacity benefit -- to pick a random example!! -- works at the moment in practice, is very far from perfectly tailored to needs, to say the least! But I'm more interested in ideal goals).

There are alternatives but they're fucking awful. You could prioritise those who've been in an area for longest, or those who've paid the most taxes in the past. Doesn't the US unemployment system work something like that - with unemployment benefit for redundant workers for a period and food stamps for the rest?
Or there's the German approach where people are guest workers, and therefore more likely to leave if the work runs out.

'From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs' I say. Which (at the moment) means campaigning for higher direct taxes for the rich, and defending needs-based wefare systems, even if a few tabloid readers don't like it.

 

[mutley]

I doubt that many people have switched from BNP to Respect. What has happened since the BNP win in the bye election is that there is a lot less white working class voters in the ward and a lot more Asian (and probably black) voters in the ward. And the area has attracted many middle class people. Which is precisely why the Tories won the Millwall bye election in 2004.

BarryB

The simple answer is we don't know. Undoubtedly there will have been voter turn-over, and its probably mathematically possible for Oliur to have won without any voter switch, but that seems unlikely. Certainly the meetings Galloway has done on estates where he is around council housing sell-offs shows Respect can win people in those core working class areas. (I've heard those meetings described as Galloways best but least known about work).

 

[123bpm]

What other ideal of a welfare state is there though, other than a needs based one??

A rights'-based one.

123

 

[123bpm]

if anything- the fact that the voters of millwall can turn from the BNP to Respect in just a few years

don't be ridiculous

 

[mutley]

A rights'-based one.

123

Which would work how exactly?

People have argued for the right to work, the right to a home, the right to health. Others just think that there's just negative rights to free speech. Others think all rights are 'nonsense on stilts'.

Where do you stand?

 

[tbaldwin]

I suppose I find it hard to see race as being relevant to the above questions.

I think that is a good point. It is not only the views of the white working class that are dismissed as reactionary and bigoted etc. A majority of Black and Asian people will also share views on Crime and Migration that are dismissed out of hand by Liberal Lefties.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, contrary to reports that is certainly not what I was saying, as i'm sure you know VP.

Quite, which is why I answered your post the way I did.

I just think that certain areas of discussion have somehow been pushed off limits. the guardian article and the report are now in the public domain, so i just think we should talk about it, not just dismiss it*. This is exactly the sort of work Keenan Malik is doing, i think long term such open discussions will lead to much better relations and help neuter the bnp, etc.

*particualry as we know now it may have an hidden agenda.

Debate is certainly progressively closed down. First "class politics" were set aside to make way for "identity politics", and now they've been shown to be either unworkable or irrelevant we've moved on to the politics of choice and opportunity, where class and/or identity don't matter as long as you're presented with choice and/or opportunity, or (in many cases) a semblance of it.

 

[BarryB]

The simple answer is we don't know. Undoubtedly there will have been voter turn-over, and its probably mathematically possible for Oliur to have won without any voter switch, but that seems unlikely. Certainly the meetings Galloway has done on estates where he is around council housing sell-offs shows Respect can win people in those core working class areas. (I've heard those meetings described as Galloways best but least known about work).

Sorry but I dont understand your reference to Oliur Rahman in your reply to me concerning the Millwall bye election. Paul McGarr was the Respect candidate in the Millwall bye election. Rahman was the winning candidate in the St Dunstans and Stepney Green bye election.

BarryB

 

[William of Walworth]

I suppose I find it hard to see race as being relevant to the above questions.

I think that is a good point. It is not only the views of the white working class that are dismissed as reactionary and bigoted etc. A majority of Black and Asian people will also share views on Crime and Migration that are dismissed out of hand by Liberal Lefties.

I think your point is less similar to mine than you make out, Mr Baldwin ...

Race being not relevant ALSO means not dragging in your anti-'liberal-leftie' bile and invective ...

And don't interrogate me please as to what my point actually IS -- it shouldn't be that tough to see, and I'm not massively keen on arguing with you if thats OK.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think your point is less similar to mine than you make out, Mr Baldwin ...

Race being not relevant ALSO means not dragging in your anti-'liberal-leftie' bile and invective ...

And don't interrogate me please as to what my point actually IS -- it shouldn't be that tough to see, and I'm not massively keen on arguing with you if thats OK.

 

[tbaldwin]

Dont worry WoW,i know your hardly critical of left liberal orthodoxy.But i think the point that it is not just the white working class who are ignored by the LIBERAL SUPREMACISTS.

 

[William of Walworth]

I blame the beer

Dont worry WoW,i know your hardly critical of left liberal orthodoxy.But i think the point that it is not just the white working class who are ignored by the LIBERAL SUPREMACISTS.

Surely you mean the Liberal Nazis??

Are you *rn*st* in disguise???

<shit I'm supposed to be ignoring this ... at self >

 

[mutley]

Dont worry WoW,i know your hardly critical of left liberal orthodoxy.But i think the point that it is not just the white working class who are ignored by the LIBERAL SUPREMACISTS.

'Ooh the bastards, they're.. ignoring us!!'

 

[belboid]

some pretty decent letters in The Guardian today, utterly destroying the entire basis of the original article and its reactionary idea's, worthy of being listened to only by morons. Some choice snippets:

"The article dismisses the working class as resentful and racist but without acknowledging that they have never been allowed a voice in any of the decisions that affect their lives. We even need the middle classes to write articles about us, something that would rightly not be tolerated if it was about any other minority."

"Pointing the finger at the welfare state is not simply bad social science, but plays to a politics that will accentuate the underlying inequalities in society that feed tension."

"At the beginning of this century fewer social rented homes were being built than at any point since the second world war. If we are to create healthy, sustainable communities, it's the amount of new homes we build for those who cannot afford to buy or rent on the open market that must change - not how they are allocated."

and the last two in their entirety:


Letters
Britain's silenced majority

Wednesday February 15, 2006
The Guardian

It says it all in the first word of the head-line (Ignored, angry and anxious: the white working class, February 13). Everything that has been done for the working class has been done to them, not with them, and until the middle class acknowledge this, the "stuff the lot of 'em" attitude will continue. The article dismisses the working class as resentful and racist but without acknowledging that they have never been allowed a voice in any of the decisions that affect their lives. We even need the middle classes to write articles about us, something that would rightly not be tolerated if it was about any other minority. There is the rub, we are not a minority - the white working class are a 40 million majority who have to contend with not very much say in our lives while being blamed for all the ills of society.

Article continues
The most destructive prejudice in Britain is class, which is buffeted by a conservative media supporting a selfish middle class, wallowing in concerned liberalism. The white working class are used to being ignored. Yes, we are angry but most of all we are also sad that our supposed middle-class betters have not achieved the cohesive society they crave.
Chris Trude
London

Madeleine Bunting is undoubtedly correct that many white working-class communities feel left behind and excluded by the changes of the past half century but the observation that the welfare state is the culprit is fatuous. The breakdown of community solidarity has multiple and complex causes such as the casualisation of employment, the declining power of institutions such as trade unions and the emergence of a society that values financial over other success. Pointing the finger at the welfare state is not simply bad social science, but plays to a politics that will accentuate the underlying inequalities in society that feed tension.
Adam Tickell
Professor of economic geography, University of Bristol

Madeleine Bunting argues that the East End's racial and social tensions are exacerbated by a housing allocation system based on need. The fact is, however, that the chronic lack of social rented housing in the East End and elsewhere means housing providers are forced into a "Dutch auction" between acute housing need and the requirements of the established community.

At the beginning of this century fewer social rented homes were being built than at any point since the second world war. If we are to create healthy, sustainable communities, it's the amount of new homes we build for those who cannot afford to buy or rent on the open market that must change - not how they are allocated.
Adam Sampson
Director, Shelter

The authors of The New East End seem to be clutching at culturalist straws rather than economic essence. The London working class is not and never has been culturally homogenous. How could it be when it was coerced into being by land clearances in England, Scotland and Ireland and pogroms in eastern Europe, and is now invigorated by migrants from the former empire and eastern Europe.

The networks of mutual support that sustained many working-class communities were the inadequate products of necessity. But where postwar Labour and the Tories competed to build the most council houses, they now compete to privatise. And with an accelerating collapse of manufacturing that bears the imprint of Gordon Brown's pro-City policies, it is no surprise that the welfare state has lost the attraction it had when working-class families could envisage a future of stable employment, affordable housing, comprehensive education and access to health care.
Nick Wright
Communist party

Much space is given to the Young Foundation's new book, but another recent publication, Voices from the Mead, People's stories of the Kingsmead Estate receives no such publicity. Probably because it is written by residents not academics. Despite the rhetoric, the government refuses to give such inclusive local groups proper financial support.
Bob Holman
Glasgow

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Meanwhile in the world of housing...