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If you could choose one option to save football from itself, which would it be?

Saving football?

  • I am an idiot who rings 606 every week and cannot see what all the fuss is about.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Rory Prendagast rings my bell.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    48
tangerinedream said:
As for a single problem - probably the lifting of the maximum wage, or indeed before that - probably profesionalisation. (however, the introduction of the proffesional attitude was what did for sides like Old Etonians and Royal Engineers and gave rise too the pwer base of the game shifting to the North West/Midlands/North East.......

Most of your points are valid but I think you gloss over a few crucial issues.

The maximum wage needed to be abolished. It was anachronistic and exploitiative whichever way you look at it.

The main reason it lasted for so long was because the people at the top of the game, the administrators, gained from it. They held absolute power over their players who had little say in any part of their career.

It had very little to do with maintaining competitiveness or any kind of egalitarian spirit, it was simply oppressive and exploitative and it suited the chairmen.

Secondly, you are wrong on the revenue streams of big clubs.

The majority of their income always comes from gate receipts.

It's the base on which the club is built and just about the only guaranteed form of income, which is vital for business projections and, in the end, the survival of the club.

Consequently the successful big clubs cannot ignore the local community. On the contrary it has to be the primary focus of their operation because it is the season ticket holders alone who provide their primary base. All else flows from and depends on that.

I take your point about the 80s being a period of gestation for the eventual EPL and the current form of top flight football in Britain, but conversely I would argue, and I know this sounds bonkers considering the Roman invasion, that top flight premiership football is actually becoming more competitive, but that's for another thread.

But back to my original point. Your only rock solid argument is that top flight football is less competitive than at periods in the past. To me that doesn't merit any kind of manichean hyperbole about saving football in light of what promises to be the most competitive season for a long time.

Oh, and you can kindly fuck off with your concluding insults. It looks like there's an opportunity for a good discussion here and it doesn't need such condescending claptrap.
 
bring back the terrace's would be cheaper to get in make a better
atmosphere.
have a sin bin , players would be penalised at point of wrong-doing
give advantage to the wronged team...
have a claxon at end of game with stopwatch given to 5th official
 
They were an immediate success in the League, winning promotion in their first season and narrowly missing out on the Division Two playoffs in their second due to number changes caused by the introduction of the premiership.


fucking premiership :mad:
 
I'd have liked the option 'Remove Sky TV rights and have Rupert Murdoch shot'.
Whilst knowing that a million others would line up to take his place, speaking from a history student's point of view it all started to go tits up when he took a shine to the beautiful game.
 
Diamond said:
Most of your points are valid but I think you gloss over a few crucial issues.

The maximum wage needed to be abolished. It was anachronistic and exploitiative whichever way you look at it.

The main reason it lasted for so long was because the people at the top of the game, the administrators, gained from it. They held absolute power over their players who had little say in any part of their career.

It had very little to do with maintaining competitiveness or any kind of egalitarian spirit, it was simply oppressive and exploitative and it suited the chairmen.

Secondly, you are wrong on the revenue streams of big clubs.

The majority of their income always comes from gate receipts.

It's the base on which the club is built and just about the only guaranteed form of income, which is vital for business projections and, in the end, the survival of the club.

Consequently the successful big clubs cannot ignore the local community. On the contrary it has to be the primary focus of their operation because it is the season ticket holders alone who provide their primary base. All else flows from and depends on that.

I take your point about the 80s being a period of gestation for the eventual EPL and the current form of top flight football in Britain, but conversely I would argue, and I know this sounds bonkers considering the Roman invasion, that top flight premiership football is actually becoming more competitive, but that's for another thread.

But back to my original point. Your only rock solid argument is that top flight football is less competitive than at periods in the past. To me that doesn't merit any kind of manichean hyperbole about saving football in light of what promises to be the most competitive season for a long time.

Oh, and you can kindly fuck off with your concluding insults. It looks like there's an opportunity for a good discussion here and it doesn't need such condescending claptrap.

Diamond, I am sorry if I insulted you - I don't know who you support or see you in this forum a lot (maybe I am being forgetful?), so I assumed you were either a) not a football fan or b) supported a big club. I can see from the above that a) is clearly not true.

firstly - Man Utd, the team with the biggest ground and fan base make less than 40% (36%) of their overall turnover from gates. Therefore nearly 65% comes from TV, sponsorship etc. Of those gate reciepts, a lot of that is corporate business as a good proportion of the ground is very expensive and each corporate seat sold is worth more than a 'normal' fan. I would imagine you average bloke from manchester accounts for a much smaller part of their income. So I believe I am not wrong. I can if you like find you the BBC article from which I quote.

second, I didn't defend the maximum wage, indeed I believe that those who argue for it are missing the point. I thought by citing the case of Tom Finney as an example of the ridiculous conditions for even the superstars of yesteryear. I did also say it was down to chairman not wanting to get into bidding wars for players wages as obviously that didn't suit them - Finney was for example refused a transfer from Preston on a number of occaisions, despite the fact he could have gone abroad and earnt something approaching his market value - as you say, he had no choice but to carry on picking up a pittance reletive to his worth and it clearly was wrong.

finally,
I really don't believe I am indulging in hyberbole, (I don't know what Manchian means though!) to say that the distribution of wealth is strangling the game.

I do understand what you mean i think in the last point - there is something odd about the way, the more money pours in, the more Randy Lerners and Alexandr Gardamarks will turn up and therefore the more competitive it will get.

however, that rather negates what happens to the Barnsleys, the Rotherhams, the Notts Counties who find themselves further and further adrift as at that level, the sums don't add up for the likes of Lerner. Surely you can see that as a follower of lower league football, it becomes increasingly frustrating to witness the massive gap in finance that grows and grows every year.

I can't really understand why this season is going to be any different from the previous 4 or 5. Is anyone going to challenge the dominance of the teams who were there last year?

The only way I could see it is if they all have long and difficult champions league runs and lots of injurys. I just can't see a team like Everton, Bolton, Portsmouth, blackburn, Newcastle, Charlton or even Spurs pushing the top few all the way - for me, that is boring. It's so sad that when one of them qualifies for europe it's regarded as really 'exciting' for football. I certainly can't see an ex championship team storming the top few spots - I hope I'm wrong, but for me, watching the same teams slog it out year after year after year is really, really boring.
 
The following link was kindly provided by nuffsaid: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/arsenal/5380998.stm

On another thread I recall stating the claim that arsenal's fiscal managment was akin to a mid table team or one joining the premiership. Although I was ridiculed at the time, the above link give credence to my original view. Wenger inherited a mid table team, and within a season had turn them into title winners and double winners. It is a testament to his vision and ability that AFC find themselves in the potential lucrative position they occupy today.
Highbury's capacity was 35,500, while not small by any means, it's dwarfed by the city ground, villa park and of course old trafford.
Arsenal are a prime example of a 'small' club gaining success the right way, yet whenever discussion is held they are viewed as a big club and draw the same comparisons as manchester utd and chelsea, when that's patently not the case. Isn't it time this view changed and along with the premise that the EPL doesn't have small clubs fighting for top honours.
 
muser said:

Well, I'll judge that at the end of the year if one of the scenarios I outlined below happens. Either one of the teams named will break the monopoly or a promoted team qualifies for europe.
 
muser said:
The following link was kindly provided by nuffsaid: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/arsenal/5380998.stm

On another thread I recall stating the claim that arsenal's fiscal managment was akin to a mid table team or one joining the premiership. Although I was ridiculed at the time, the above link give credence to my original view. Wenger inherited a mid table team, and within a season had turn them into title winners and double winners. It is a testament to his vision and ability that AFC find themselves in the potential lucrative position they occupy today.
Highbury's capacity was 35,500, while not small by any means, it's dwarfed by the city ground, villa park and of course old trafford.
Arsenal are a prime example of a 'small' club gaining success the right way, yet whenever discussion is held they are viewed as a big club and draw the same comparisons as manchester utd and chelsea, when that's patently not the case. Isn't it time this view changed and along with the premise that the EPL doesn't have small clubs fighting for top honours.

It isn't dwarfed by 'the city Ground' - That holds less
Villa Park holds about 5000 and a bit more. Not exactly dwarfing
Wenger inhereted a side that had finished 4th under Rioch and had Dennis Bergkamp in his prime as well as player who had reached the CWC final and a lot who had won the league with Graham. Muser, they bought players like Bergkamp before Wenger arrived yet you say they are 'small' - what planet are you on where the biggest* team, in the biggest city is 'small'?
Wenger is shrewder than most, I agree he is fantastic - but please, don't claim he has taken a 'little club' to success on a shoestring, because he hasn't.

*well, one of.
 
tangerinedream said:
A) wage capping (tied to turnover of club)
B) abolishing the 'champions' league format
C) abolishing the premier league and thus allowing TV income to be distributed on an equitable basis
D) Nothing.
It's not one of the options, but I would try to lessen the influence of agents.
 
tangerinedream said:
It isn't dwarfed by 'the city Ground' - That holds less
Villa Park holds about 5000 and a bit more. Not exactly dwarfing
Wenger inhereted a side that had finished 4th under Rioch and had Dennis Bergkamp in his prime as well as player who had reached the CWC final and a lot who had won the league with Graham. Muser, they bought players like Bergkamp before Wenger arrived yet you say they are 'small' - what planet are you on where the biggest* team, in the biggest city is 'small'?
Wenger is shrewder than most, I agree he is fantastic - but please, don't claim he has taken a 'little club' to success on a shoestring, because he hasn't.

*well, one of.

Are you implying that man city's ground wasn't as large as highbury?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_City_F.C.
Arsenal hadn't won the league title since 1991 before winning it again under wenger. In your definition a club is only big if they spend big, or do you take into consideration the size of their ground, corporate sponsorship and marketablity overseas.
Is everton to be considered a big club since they last won the league in the 86-87 season. Arsenal were a big club, but to ignore the fact that they hadn't won the league since 1991 and only had a european cup winners cup in 94 before wenger came puts them on par with alot of clubs.
Can you devise a list of EPL teams that you consider part of the big clubs ethos. Arsenal were no bigger than everton in the mid 90's, yet you wouldn't describe them as a big club. Wenger spent 160m in his tenure, whilst recouping 115m, that is effectively spending 4.5m a season. If spending were criteria for a big club then arsenal would be positioned in the lower bracket of EPL teams. Tangerine you refuse to acknowledge your own biase on this debate and that (more than anything) clouds your judgement.
 
muser said:
Is everton to be considered a big club since they last won the league in the 86-87 season. Arsenal were a big club, but to ignore the fact that they hadn't won the league since 1991 and only had a european cup winners cup in 94 before wenger came puts them on par with alot of clubs.
Can you devise a list of EPL teams that you consider part of the big clubs ethos. Arsenal were no bigger than everton in the mid 90's, yet you wouldn't describe them as a big club. Wenger spent 160m in his tenure, whilst recouping 115m, that is effectively spending 4.5m a season.

Didn't Arsenal win the league and FA cup double in 93 ?
 
  • Civil court actions for loss earning resulting from incorrect guesses at what happened on the pitch by referees (miss awarded penalties, sendings off etc,etc).
  • Proceedings through the civil courts against referees who's interpretation of the rules is not even handed either between games or during a game. They shall personally or via the FA be liable for a clubs loss of earnings which they may have had if they had won.
  • Criminal court actions for fraud against players found to have dived; followed by civil actions to recover losses against past and future earnings of the player and the club
  • Penalties for red and yellow cards changed from sending off to personal fines against players set at %10 of earning for a red and 7% for a yellow. This gross earning figure to include non football related earnings as well. There should also be a fine against the club as well set on some suitable metric. Five random season ticket holders shot at gun point or something might be fair.
 
They won the League Cup and FA Cup double, although I have no idea what the former was known as at the time. Manchester United won the league in 1993, the first year after it changed its name.

It's not one of the options, but I would try to lessen the influence of agents
Or get rid of them altogether. They're grown men; they can work out for themselves which is more of £50,000 a week or £60,000 a week.
 
I would like to have a cap on players wages, to some percentage of the clubs wages. It would stop things like Leeds happening, were Robbie Fowler was still being paid by them long after he left.

Stop Abramovich as well.

It would also have the undesired effect of making it the ManU show as they could attract the best players with pots of money.
 
Capping players wages would never work. They would always find a way round it: bonuses, free gifts, bungs etc.


Don't know what good ending the Champions League system would do.


Making TV money trickledown more sounds like a good idea.
 
Maggot said:
Capping players wages would never work. They would always find a way round it: bonuses, free gifts, bungs etc.


Don't know what good ending the Champions League system would do.


Making TV money trickledown more sounds like a good idea.

1 - I agree

2 - Stop the fact that it's just a crap cup designed to get Real Madrid on Telly as much as possible to sell adverts

3 - I think the thought should be less 'trickle down' but give the same amount to everyone. Of course, that rather suggests the end of the premier league to me and it's not very likely is it.
 
tangerinedream said:
1 - I agree

2 - Stop the fact that it's just a crap cup designed to get Real Madrid on Telly as much as possible to sell adverts

3 - I think the thought should be less 'trickle down' but give the same amount to everyone. Of course, that rather suggests the end of the premier league to me and it's not very likely is it.
2) I enjoy seeing big European clubs playing each other on a regular basis, although less this season as Juve aren't in it.

3) It wouldn't be fair to give the same money to a club who's games are live nearly every week, as to a club who appears once or twice a season.
 
muser said:
Are you implying that man city's ground wasn't as large as highbury?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_City_F.C.
Arsenal hadn't won the league title since 1991 before winning it again under wenger. In your definition a club is only big if they spend big, or do you take into consideration the size of their ground, corporate sponsorship and marketablity overseas.
Is everton to be considered a big club since they last won the league in the 86-87 season. Arsenal were a big club, but to ignore the fact that they hadn't won the league since 1991 and only had a european cup winners cup in 94 before wenger came puts them on par with alot of clubs.
Can you devise a list of EPL teams that you consider part of the big clubs ethos. Arsenal were no bigger than everton in the mid 90's, yet you wouldn't describe them as a big club. Wenger spent 160m in his tenure, whilst recouping 115m, that is effectively spending 4.5m a season. If spending were criteria for a big club then arsenal would be positioned in the lower bracket of EPL teams. Tangerine you refuse to acknowledge your own biase on this debate and that (more than anything) clouds your judgement.

muser said:
Are you implying that man city's ground wasn't as large as highbury?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_City_F.C.

http://www.stadiumguide.com/cityground.htm

See, when you said 'the city ground' I foolishly thought you meant 'the city ground' - but you were wrong on both cases anyway. Muser - I admit my own bias in so much as having the 'self interest' of supporting a club outside the cartel. I think this hamstrings me less than your habit of frequently getting things really rather wrong.

The season before Wenger came - Arsenal spent £20million and only recouped £3m. The fact Bruce Rioch spent a lot of that money on Chris Kiwomya and John Hartson does rather suggest someone like Arsene is a big factor in success, but he might have done very well, but you've got to speculate to accumulate. By my thinking, that sum of money for a mid table side (that finished 5th:confused: ) doesn't say 'little club' and I would certainly have regarded Everton as a 'big club' pre Peter Johnson anyway.

what is my bias in the argument Muser? That I believe the sytem to be unfair as it perpetuates the success of certain teams?

Can you catagorically state, once and for all that there is no link at all between money and success in professional football?

(Pre seating, Highbury held over 50,000 by the way and they'd won the league and cup 4 years before he got there. What exactly is achieved by continually and incorrectly painting Arsene as managing on the same budget as Dario Gradi, dragging this tiny unknown club from the depths of nowhere)
 
Maggot said:
2) I enjoy seeing big European clubs playing each other on a regular basis, although less this season as Juve aren't in it.

3) It wouldn't be fair to give the same money to a club who's games are live nearly every week, as to a club who appears once or twice a season.

2) Wouldn't it be more exciting if it was cup football?

3) Like it's fair now? Equality would be more unfair? :confused:
 
yea or nay

tangerinedream said:
http://www.stadiumguide.com/cityground.htm

See, when you said 'the city ground' I foolishly thought you meant 'the city ground' - but you were wrong on both cases anyway. Muser - I admit my own bias in so much as having the 'self interest' of supporting a club outside the cartel. I think this hamstrings me less than your habit of frequently getting things really rather wrong.

The season before Wenger came - Arsenal spent £20million and only recouped £3m. The fact Bruce Rioch spent a lot of that money on Chris Kiwomya and John Hartson does rather suggest someone like Arsene is a big factor in success, but he might have done very well, but you've got to speculate to accumulate. By my thinking, that sum of money for a mid table side (that finished 5th:confused: ) doesn't say 'little club' and I would certainly have regarded Everton as a 'big club' pre Peter Johnson anyway.

what is my bias in the argument Muser? That I believe the sytem to be unfair as it perpetuates the success of certain teams?

Can you catagorically state, once and for all that there is no link at all between money and success in professional football?

(Pre seating, Highbury held over 50,000 by the way and they'd won the league and cup 4 years before he got there. What exactly is achieved by continually and incorrectly painting Arsene as managing on the same budget as Dario Gradi, dragging this tiny unknown club from the depths of nowhere)

I had meant maine road. All debate on the matter leads us elsewhere.
Tell me if milan mandaric came to to the tangerines and brought a controlling share would you oppose his chairmanship?
Instead of pultry measures to cap wages, (which diamond and others have eloquently argued against) why not introduce non transferable credits issued by the FA. These credits would enable a team to buy a player (any player) that is registered with an FA in the world, all teams get an equal distribution at the start of the season. In effect no money transfers for the signing of a player.
The concession to the capitalist model would be the maximum wage, paid to a player would remain the same.
 
I sometimes think it should go back to talented but unpaid amateur players with small local clubs...maximum spectators 3000....
 
Don't know what good ending the Champions League system would do.
It would prevent the current financial quadopolies that exist in the richest nations (Italy, Spain and England) and triolpolies in the likes of France, Germany, Holland, Portugal and some others. These cash dominations allow them to built gigantic squads with players who regard playing for a team outside the European Cup as some sort of a "failed season", and so will toss aside rival domestic teams.

Looking at history prior to the 1990s, we had around 40 years of simple structure to European competition; the titles winners played in the European Cup, the cup winners in the Cup Winners Cup, and the placings of 2 to around 6 in the UEFA Cup, and all three competitions were knockout meaning the only way to guarantee money was to win all your games, yet the greater prize was actually winning the competition. One can't help thinking that winning the competition these days is merely an afterthought for those running some clubs, as long as they get their bounty from the oxymoron of the group-cup stages. Prior to 1990 we had some truly great teams who were created through endeavour rather than investment; Benfica, Manchester United, Bayern Munich, Ajax, Liverpool.
 
Sunray said:
I would like to have a cap on players wages, to some percentage of the clubs wages. It would stop things like Leeds happening, were Robbie Fowler was still being paid by them long after he left.
Yeah but you know, the clubs that spend the highest proportion of their budget on wages (at least in the prem) aren't the big clubs.
 
stavros said:
It would prevent the current financial quadopolies that exist in the richest nations (Italy, Spain and England) and triolpolies in the likes of France, Germany, Holland, Portugal and some others. These cash dominations allow them to built gigantic squads with players who regard playing for a team outside the European Cup as some sort of a "failed season", and so will toss aside rival domestic teams.

Looking at history prior to the 1990s, we had around 40 years of simple structure to European competition; the titles winners played in the European Cup, the cup winners in the Cup Winners Cup, and the placings of 2 to around 6 in the UEFA Cup, and all three competitions were knockout meaning the only way to guarantee money was to win all your games, yet the greater prize was actually winning the competition. One can't help thinking that winning the competition these days is merely an afterthought for those running some clubs, as long as they get their bounty from the oxymoron of the group-cup stages. Prior to 1990 we had some truly great teams who were created through endeavour rather than investment; Benfica, Manchester United, Bayern Munich, Ajax, Liverpool.

Someone give this man a job at UEFA.
 
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