If the Tories got in at the next Gen Election

[agricola]

It depends what Tories get in.

If we end up with the Thatcherite, PFI-loving, paid-up members of the political class goons that Cameron seems to be one of then the country is pretty much fucked.

If it turns out that they instead actually have a clue and stop the wasteful PFI deals, get rid of tax credits and just tax people less, stop the madness of ID Cards, bring back a measure of regulation to the City of London and the financial system generally and they resist the temptation to endlessly reorganize the NHS, the Police, the legal system or indeed any part of Government then we might well be better off.

New Labour does get a lot of deserved bile for its policies but they really should get as much bile for being utterly incompetent, if not corrupt, in the way they bring those policies about.

 

[soulman]

Ah, I see - this is your Saturday night cock thread. Well, go with it, by all means.

Yes of course, that's the one.

 

[max_freakout]

cannabis will be reclassified

 

[Groucho]

I'm old enough to remember Thatcher winning in 1979.... & all the talk then of "they're all the same, it won't make any difference...."

... no brighter then than some of you lot are now....

Well ever since 1945 each Govt has been worse than the last

 

[agricola]

Well ever since 1945 each Govt has been worse than the last

Not really, Major was better than Thatcher... but I suppose he did let Blair in. Carry on.

 

[soulman]

Why is it that Labour always bring in the the really nasty anti-civil liberty stuff? Like the PTA, detention without trial, mass surveillance etc...

 

[Groucho]

Not really, Major was better than Thatcher... but I suppose he did let Blair in. Carry on.

Ah, but I was thinking change of colour not just leader.

But Major is a real case in point. Same Govt. but yes his was better but why? He only did two things of note after the pit closures and ERM disaster (before then he went to war on Iraq). One was to privatise the railways (reactionary). The other was to open a dialogue with the IRA (progressive). Otherwise he did fuck all. His was a powerless Govt. He daren't move through fear of revolt. Thatcher had been kicked out by anti-poll tax rioting. His own immediate disaster had provoked huge protests in support of the miners.

The key is the strength of resistance, the power of the mass of the population and their wilingness to resist. That is why Major's Govt was not only better than Thatcher's, it was better than Blair's. From the ruling class point of view it was the most pointless Govt of the 20thC.

 

[agricola]

His was a powerless Govt.

I disagree with the "power of resistance" bit, but your reasoning about it being best because it had the least ability to do anything is sound.

 

[PaulOK]

Thinking the unthinkable maybe.

Would it be so bad if the Conservatives won the next General Election? What's the worse that could happen really...

New Labour and the Tory party are esentially the same so it will be more of the same.....We've had almost 30 years of Tory government so we will just be getting another 4 more.

 

[Groucho]

lol

If the last time is anything to go by, it'll be a riot



lmfao

 

[isvicthere?]

Thinking the unthinkable maybe.

Would it be so bad if the Conservatives won the next General Election? What's the worse that could happen really...

It will be every bit as awful as Thatcher. And if you can't remember the 80s, you're lucky. They were shit.

The difference between Blair and Cameron is that Blair was a sell-out to Labour principles. He effectively destroyed the Labour party with the abolition of Clause 4. Cameron, on the other hand, is giving all the fluffy electoral-friendly image stuff now, but will resort to core tory values once in power. Those on the margins of society, watch out!

"How bad will it be?"

 

[isvicthere?]

Would a Tory victory pull the carpet out from under the bnp?

This line of argument always amuses me. The far-right racist parties' appeal has always been to the white working-class - i.e. traditional Labour voters. So, no...

 

[becky p]

I doubt if anything much would change overnight if the tories got in. Over time they would probably cut public spending and taxes,but not by that much.
Older people remembering Margaret Thatcher may fear the worst but most Tory governments have been quite moderate.

 

[Zeppo]

When the Tories get in - it may not be for one term but for a generation. You will get the usual sabre rattling from the unions but little action. The Labour machine going into angst and recriminations, Some LP types will say we should be more right wing others we should be left wing.

Public sector will get hit hard, more privatisation, more voluntary sector doing jobs that are now in the public sector.

The Tories getting in will mean that the mass of the public will have shifted right in voting terms. But like Blair and 1997 it was then more of an anti Tory than pro Blair vote.

Similarly the anti Brown New Labour backlash will be huge at the next general election. For those on the left the time is now to build bridges and get its act together, rather than wait for the car crash of Labour's defeat at the next general election.

 

[Maidmarian]

^^^^^^ Yep.

 

[Groucho]

I doubt if anything much would change overnight if the tories got in. Over time they would probably cut public spending and taxes,but not by that much.
Older people remembering Margaret Thatcher may fear the worst but most Tory governments have been quite moderate.

Not really, it depends on the priorities of the ruling class/big business. The post war concensus was based on fear of the scale of revolt seen between the wars and before WW1 combined with an economic boom making concensuions to the working class and poor easy. The boom ended in the 60s and ushered in the crisis - economic and political - of the 70s. The Tories attempted to break the unions but were broken by the unions. It took Labour, working with the union leadership, to undermine the power of the workers and cut wages. The dissillusion let Thatcher in and full scale class war against the majority was unleashed. But cleverly and divisively using bribes at times until the Poll Tax finished off Thatcher.

Blair/Brown continued the basic Thatcherite approach but in a period of economic stability. That economic stability has ended so we are going to see hard line Thatcherite attacks on workers and on the poor once more.

The election od a Tory Govt. will be seen as an endorsement of more hard line right-wing policies. However, I don't necessarily agree with Zeppo that the unions won't fight. Whether they do or not will depend much on the rankl and file. But we are talking public sector and rail here. Outside the public sector there are swathes of industry non-unionised. But like the docks and the match girls in 1889 they could prove to be the most militant. Some call centres have started unionising and are waging vociferous campaigns for union recognition already.

 

[scott_forester]

Public sector will get hit hard, more privatisation, more voluntary sector doing jobs that are now in the public sector.

More than New Labour? Who appear to be in the process of moving all the assets of the NHS into PFI.

 

[Groucho]

This line of argument always amuses me. The far-right racist parties' appeal has always been to the white working-class - i.e. traditional Labour voters. So, no...

Not clearly the case, no. The typical BNP voter is 'white van man'. Self employed. But they do quite well in the slightly better off areas too. Of course they pick up votes from the unemployed andlow paid but not exclusively. They feed off dissillusion from both parties.

I do agree that a shift to the right of the political spectrum benefits the BNP; it does not pull the rug from under them. Only dealing with people's real concerns over housing, pensions, debt and community will do that - something neither the Tories not Labour can do since they are wedded to policies that benefit big business.

 

[Groucho]

More than New Labour? Who appear to be in the process of moving all the assets of the NHS into PFI.

The process will continue hence 'more'. It is in fact the case that New Labour have privatised more Civil Service jobs than the Thatcher and Major Govts combined. It is also the case that Labour have precided over breaching sacred territory - the 'no go' areas of privatising schools and hospitals. This is something Thatcher dared not do.

 

[butchersapron]

Not clearly the case, no. The typical BNP voter is 'white van man'. Self employed. But they do quite well in the slightly better off areas too. Of course they pick up votes from the unemployed andlow paid but not exclusively. They feed off dissillusion from both parties.

Research shows they do worst of all in areas of high unemployment and where there are large numbers of benefits claimants - and the higher up the scale you go from here the better they do. Peaking with their best results in the lower middle class and in areas with a mix of these and the better off w/c.

It took them long enough to realise this though, and, in common with the myth much beloved by many on the left of fascism being a white w/c disease, they disproportionately targeted the sort of old-school w/c areas with very little success. Griffin changed their focus though after realising what was going on and they now target the top-end of w/c bottom half m/c areas.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why is it that Labour always bring in the the really nasty anti-civil liberty stuff? Like the PTA, detention without trial, mass surveillance etc...

I think it was E.P. Thompson that once made a point about this which was that a Labour government has always felt that it had to prove to the electorate that it was just as tough as the tories, and usually did prove it via crude authoritarianism.

 

[d.a.s.h]

If the Tories have any brains, they'll develop an 'Affordable Family Formation' strategy as advocated in the US by Buchananite Republicans.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It will be every bit as awful as Thatcher. And if you can't remember the 80s, you're lucky. They were shit.

Yep. We thought the 70s were shit, with a million on the dole, but Maggie and her merry men soon showed us just how bad things could get.

The difference between Blair and Cameron is that Blair was a sell-out to Labour principles. He effectively destroyed the Labour party with the abolition of Clause 4. Cameron, on the other hand, is giving all the fluffy electoral-friendly image stuff now, but will resort to core tory values once in power. Those on the margins of society, watch out!

Same old same old. Attack the weakest because they're the least equipped to resist.

"How bad will it be?"

I'm thinking it'll be something akin to what people went through around 1984-1987. Destabilisation, utter fear in the workforce, and quite possibly an even greater loss of job security and an erosion of welfare so that there is even less of an alternative to taking a job that leaves you worse off than there is now.

 

[audiotech]

Would a Tory victory pull the carpet out from under the bnp?

I can't see a Tory victory helping the BNP any.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This line of argument always amuses me. The far-right racist parties' appeal has always been to the white working-class - i.e. traditional Labour voters. So, no...

Hmmm, the composition of the membership of the BUF and the League of Empire Loyalists right through to the NF and the BNP would tend to contradict that, what with so many nice middle-class folk being associated with them all.
It's certainly the case that the BNP has over the last decade deliberately sought to redefine it's core agenda in terms that will appeal more to the middle classes, to capture what is a fairly deep wellspring of votes from a group of people obsessed with status and with their own insecurities about their place in life.

Conversely, the "white working class" is historically where the greatest resistance to far-right racism has come from, although it's also the birthplace of all too many of the "boneheads" that infest the far-right.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Research shows they do worst of all in areas of high unemployment and where there are large numbers of benefits claimants - and the higher up the scale you go from here the better they do. Peaking with their best results in the lower middle class and in areas with a mix of these and the better off w/c.

It took them long enough to realise this though, and, in common with the myth much beloved by many on the left of fascism being a white w/c disease, they disproportionately targeted the sort of old-school w/c areas with very little success. Griffin changed their focus though after realising what was going on and they now target the top-end of w/c bottom half m/c areas.

^^^^What he said.

 

[frogwoman]

Hmmm, the composition of the membership of the BUF and the League of Empire Loyalists right through to the NF and the BNP would tend to contradict that, what with so many nice middle-class folk being associated with them all.
It's certainly the case that the BNP has over the last decade deliberately sought to redefine it's core agenda in terms that will appeal more to the middle classes, to capture what is a fairly deep wellspring of votes from a group of people obsessed with status and with their own insecurities about their place in life.

Conversely, the "white working class" is historically where the greatest resistance to far-right racism has come from, although it's also the birthplace of all too many of the "boneheads" that infest the far-right.

Yep exactly

most of the worst racists i've ever come across have been fucking loaded

 

[audiotech]

...and, in common with the myth much beloved by many on the left of fascism being a white w/c disease,...

You mean like this?

...their [the BNP] growing occupancy of working class areas will continue to accelerate.

 

[butchersapron]

You mean like this?

Of being a singularly white w/c disease.

 

[DownwardDog]

The difference between Blair and Cameron is that Blair was a sell-out to Labour principles. He effectively destroyed the Labour party with the abolition of Clause 4. :

Ever since Gaitskell tried to get rid of it in 1959 Clause 4 has been more of a symbol than a genuine or achievable aspiration.

Domestically, I don't think a Cameron government will be radically different from Blair/Brown. We won't have ID cards and will get a bit less nanny state bollocks but I think all of Cameron's efforts will be on acheiving a devolutionary settlement with Scotland and repositioning Britain's relationship with the EU.