If the 'Independent Newspaper', was in a infiltrated buy Al Qaeda sympathizers...

[Das Uberdog]

Unless you claim (as you almost do) that being in opposition to the war in Iraq is the same as sympathising with terrorists, not a single one of the posts in this thread in any way justifies terrorist attacks on civilians.

 

[JHE]

Unless you claim (as you almost do) that being in opposition to the war in Iraq is the same as sympathising with terrorists, not a single one of the posts in this thread in any way justifies terrorist attacks on civilians.

Mind you, there is an odd little Trot sect which, for reasons best known to itself, adamantly refuses to condemn Islamist bombings.

 

[rhod]

It is almost impossible for a person to change their view about a subject.

Oh, I don't know - my view on Tony Blair has changed quite radically over 10 years. I wouldn't vote for his party now.

we will owe Iraqi billions of pounds in war reparations. Now that will come out of taxes money they could go to hospitals etc. be careful about what you campaign for

Maybe the politicians and electorate will think twice about blithely voting for avoidable wars in future. A price worth paying.

please don't write in a way that gives moral support and moral justification for terrorist acts against his country.

I don't think a terrorist gives a flying fuck about whether what we say bestows any moral justification on their actions.

I would imagine their moral code is shaped more by having to deal with close friends and relatives being killed by the occupiers.

 

[Streathamite]

Okay I confess I am lazy I can't be bothered to Google even for five seconds to backup what I know to be true.
.

except you don't - virtually all you jhave said has been shot down in flames, and your ignorance on m/east culture exposed.

It is almost impossible for a person to change their view about a subject.

no it damn well isn't! It may be impossible for YOU to, but not for most
people who are intelligent and open minded enough to allow it to happen.
There is instead something I call, the democracy of ideas, the forums are a chance to layout one's own personal stall of ideas and opinion.

In many ways the reality does not matter,

it does

history becomes what the majority agree on

.
no it doesn't and no historian would agree with you

One more point to bear in mind if your criticism of Bush and Blair and the war are valid.

IF????? do you not keep au courant with pubklic opinion?

And it was an illegal war, we will owe Iraqi billions of pounds in war reparations. Now that will come out of taxes money they could go to hospitals etc.

err, no, cos that's one bill you can be sure will never be paid - except by UK victims of Islamic terror
be careful about what you campaign for, because one thing about the future you never know what the hell is going to happen. At the moment there is no personal cost to attacking our countries decision.

Many arguments here are unwittingly moral justifications for a catastrophic terrorist attack on this country,

utter, total bollocks. NO anti-war arguments here are 'unwitting' in any way - we know EXACTLY what we are saying and why. Ans they are NOT justifications for terror, simply cos I really, really doubt that the massed ranks of Al-Q and Al-muj are poised over their PC screens reading a cult lefty BB, and all the anti-war camp are just as passionately anti-terrorist

as punishment for the crimes of Bush Blair.

If a terrorist was reading this thread they would feel like they were carrying out a great blow for justice with the support of many of this forum and society at large.

No they bloody wouldn't! given that a major gripe of al-Q is western interference in the arab world, they'd think good 'not every westerner thinks the way their leaders do'

I presume many people here are looking forward to their future, please don't write in a way that gives moral support and moral justification for terrorist acts against this country

we're not. they don't. you just don't understand

 

[SuburbanCasual]

Urban 75 it for discussion and entertainment, the sharing of ideas and the cut and thrust of argument. Okay I confess I am lazy I can't be bothered to Google even for five seconds to backup what I know to be true.

It is almost impossible for a person to change their view about a subject. There is instead something I call, the democracy of ideas, the forums are a chance to layout one's own personal stall of ideas and opinion. In many ways the reality does not matter, history becomes what the majority agree on.

The history of Iraqi, Saddam Hussein and the US and the war is being shaped. One more point to bear in mind if your criticism of Bush and Blair and the war are valid. And it was an illegal war, we will owe Iraqi billions of pounds in war reparations. Now that will come out of taxes money they could go to hospitals etc. be careful about what you campaign for, because one thing about the future you never know what the hell is going to happen. At the moment there is no personal cost to attacking our countries decision.

Many arguments here are unwittingly moral justifications for a catastrophic terrorist attack on this country, as punishment for the crimes of Bush Blair. If a terrorist was reading this thread they would feel like they were carrying out a great blow for justice with the support of many of this forum and society at large. I presume many people here are looking forward to their future, please don't write in a way that gives moral support and moral justification for terrorist acts against this country.

That is a brilliant troll, good work there.

10/10 Had me fooled for a bit.

 

[Aldebaran]

Okay I confess I am lazy I can't be bothered to Google even for five seconds to backup what I know to be true.

It might escape you, but you are already beyond lazy if you think the internet(s) are enough to "back up" no matter what you claim as "truth" about no matter which subject.

It is almost impossible for a person to change their view about a subject.

I know no person born with all wisdom of the world, hence absolutely everybody with a functioning brain constantly needs to change earlier views on subjects. Do you say that you consider yourself braindead?

In many ways the reality does not matter, history becomes what the majority agree on.

What on earth am I thinking to waste my time on researching what everyone agrees on.

At the moment there is no personal cost to attacking our countries decision.

I could tell you in great detail what my personal cost is caused by your country attacking the sovereign nation Iraq.

If a terrorist was reading this thread they would feel like they were carrying out a great blow for justice with the support of many of this forum and society at large.

Correction: If someone already somewhat brainwashed with the idea that "Jihad" (in its militant meaning) is an appealing way of life came to read the very comments you criticize, that could well be a turning point back in the right direction.
I can't say the same from the US board I was a member of. I warned the flag waving jingoists there frequently that would I translate just a fraction of their bloodlust and hate into Arabic and post it on certain websites, their posts would be the ideal terrorist recruitement tools.

I presume many people here are looking forward to their future, please don't write in a way that gives moral support and moral justification for terrorist acts against this country.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and their relatives and friends - include me there - were looking forward to their future the second these hundreds of thousends were murdered by criminal invaders of their sovereign nation.
How is that for you to think about?

I'm sorry, but after reading your posts I really don't know where to begin to educate you. I recommend you go to an academic library and get yourself to study.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

Mind you, there is an odd little Trot sect which, for reasons best known to itself, adamantly refuses to condemn Islamist bombings.

Mind you, there is an odd but far too large Bush/Blair sect which, for reasons best known to itself, adamantly refuses to condemn the bombimgs and mass murders by the USA/UK.

salaam.

 

[Streathamite]

Mind you, there is an odd little Trot sect which, for reasons best known to itself, adamantly refuses to condemn Islamist bombings.

saucer of milk over here please!

 

[JHE]

Mind you, there is an odd but far too large Bush/Blair sect which, for reasons best known to itself, adamantly refuses to condemn the bombimgs and mass murders by the USA/UK.

salaam.

There's no mystery about the Bush/Blair lot in that. They've ordered a great deal of bombing.

The small Trot sect to which I referred didn't and couldn't order Islamists to bomb or to do anything else. The Trots are not the masters. The orders go in the opposite direction.

If truth be told, the Trots in question don't like Islamist terror. They just refuse to condemn it.

Salami

 

[Bernie Gunther]

That is a brilliant troll, good work there.

10/10 Had me fooled for a bit.

Some people really are that dim, about 30% of the population of the US for a start. I'm leaning to the troll theory too, but either way, it's a sad reflection on UKP when this thread is getting more action than VP's far more interesting grassroots politics thread.

 

[Streathamite]

That is a brilliant troll, good work there.

10/10 Had me fooled for a bit.

I think you're right, or he is REALLY weird. no-one is that willing to look that daft

 

[Greebozz]

It might escape you, but you are already beyond lazy if you think the internet(s) are enough to "back up" no matter what you claim as "truth" about no matter which subject.


I know no person born with all wisdom of the world, hence absolutely everybody with a functioning brain constantly needs to change earlier views on subjects. Do you say that you consider yourself braindead?


What on earth am I thinking to waste my time on researching what everyone agrees on.


I could tell you in great detail what my personal cost is caused by your country attacking the sovereign nation Iraq.


Correction: If someone already somewhat brainwashed with the idea that "Jihad" (in its militant meaning) is an appealing way of life came to read the very comments you criticize, that could well be a turning point back in the right direction.
I can't say the same from the US board I was a member of. I warned the flag waving jingoists there frequently that would I translate just a fraction of their bloodlust and hate into Arabic and post it on certain websites, their posts would be the ideal terrorist recruitement tools.


Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and their relatives and friends - include me there - were looking forward to their future the second these hundreds of thousends were murdered by criminal invaders of their sovereign nation.
How is that for you to think about?

I'm sorry, but after reading your posts I really don't know where to begin to educate you. I recommend you go to an academic library and get yourself to study.

salaam.

It is a great privilege to read your post, because you are a Muslem and are aggrieved about the war in Iraqi. Which makes a refreshing change from non Muslims explaining how Muslims feel. I consider it a rare opportunity to communicate with you. There are some things I would really like to share with you regarding this whole debate.


Firstly I am very sorry for the war in Iraqi and all the suffering and death caused. But I believe Bush and Blair believed they were doing the right thing at the time. There was no sinister plots to steal oil it was just that the UN sanctions were not working and have become corrupt and there was genuine belief at the time that Saddam Hussein was manufacturing chemical weapons..

It turns out that he wasn't and the invasion has been a disaster, but Saddam Hussein really did have a part to play in a whole thing, when the weapons inspectors first went in they were so messed about it looked like Saddam Hussein really was up to no good.

What I am saying it I agree we made a big mistake in Iraqi but it was just honest people doing what they thought was the right thing at the time.


The second point is to do with the Muslim community in the UK. Most Muslims hate Bush and Blair and are very angry about the war in Iraqi. The problem I and many others have, is that I never got the feeling that you really liked British an American culture in the first place. There seems to be only one attitude and behaviour, have nothing to do with "corrupt western society" and hate the corrupt western society. Thats all. No desire to get to know or understand the "West", even we have bent over backwards to respect your rights and religion.

What I am trying to say is that I think for many devout Muslims there is no meeting of cultures, we are just the infidels, that are going to burn in hell and you Muslims have to insulate yourself from the "cess pool" of western culture. Where as the Bible has many verses of hell and damnation, the Koran has them on almost every page, in a very black and white fashion all "us and them", Muslims will be saved and every non Moslem will burn in hell and can be treated without any human rights.

So basically Muslims are angry and I don't think they like anyone outside their own religion and culture, and many of them seem like the "enemy within" to mainstream British society. I'm not talking about moderate Muslims and I realise the generallising, but huge numbers of Muslims hold Bin Laden as their hero and believe terrorist attacks would be justified against the UK.

So how do you answer that charge? That you and other Muslims, that are angry about the war, never liked British western society anyway and never will. And the war is just an excuse to stir up hatred and maximise your own power base to expand your own interests.

Salaam.

 

[Streathamite]

So how do you answer that charge? That you and other Muslims, that are angry about the war, never liked British western society anyway and never will. And the war is just an excuse to stir up hatred and maximise your own power base to expand your own interests.

Salaam.

that you have never got even remotely near enough first hand knowledge, can't grasp that we are all individuals, and are consequently taking a steaming great pile of donkey's poo.

 

[Blagsta]

It is a great privilege to read your post, because you are a Muslem and are aggrieved about the war in Iraqi. Which makes a refreshing change from non Muslims explaining how Muslims feel.

The second point is to do with the Muslim community in the UK. Most Muslims hate Bush and Blair and are very angry about the war in Iraqi. The problem I and many others have, is that I never got the feeling that you really liked British an American culture in the first place. There seems to be only one attitude and behaviour, have nothing to do with "corrupt western society" and hate the corrupt western society. Thats all. No desire to get to know or understand the "West", even we have bent over backwards to respect your rights and religion.

What I am trying to say is that I think for many devout Muslims there is no meeting of cultures, we are just the infidels,
<snip>

Oh dear.

 

[Streathamite]

But I believe Bush and Blair believed they were doing the right thing at the time. .

you REALLY are naive, aren't you? let me spell it out for you; they lied to you, bush cos he's an oil industry muppet, blair cos UK foreign policy is 'do what the yanks tell us to' and has been since 1945

There was no sinister plots to steal oil

they're doing it now you muppet!

it was just that the UN sanctions were not working

so why not, ooh, just remove the sanctions

and there was genuine belief at the time that Saddam Hussein was manufacturing chemical weapons..

no there wasn't! the head of Iraqi militarisation told them he'd nixed that, when he defected. Their own epert analysts found ZERO evidence, with the best surveillance technology in the world.
Look face it; you were LIED to; and they get away with it cos credulous mugs like you are so very, very easy to fool.

It turns out that he wasn't and the invasion has been a disaster,

fucking hell, the penny's dropping

but Saddam Hussein really did have a part to play in a whole thing, when the weapons inspectors first went in they were so messed about it looked like Saddam Hussein really was up to no good.

for the umpteenth fucking time; in middle eastern politics, a show of weakness is a suicide note

What I am saying it I agree we made a big mistake in Iraqi but it was just honest people doing what they thought was the right thing at the time.

Bush and Blair HONEST???? the new england preppie posing as a good ole boy, and the bloke who sold us someone's (ancient) PhD paper as expert evidence

The second point is to do with the Muslim community in the UK. Most Muslims hate Bush and Blair and are very angry about the war in Iraqi.

and most non-muslims

The problem I and many others have,

no, just you and a few ignorant bigots

is that I never got the feeling that you really liked British an American culture in the first place.

how the fuck would you know when you've never got anywhere near close enough to find out?

There seems to be only one attitude and behaviour

,
no there isn't! There as many 'attitudes' as ther are individuals! just a common theme of exasperation at dumb fuckers like you who fall for the media smear all the time!

have nothing to do with "corrupt western society"

they're living in the middle of it by choice you twat

and hate the corrupt western society.

that "they" are a willing productive part of and participate in, for the most part in, to the fullest

Thats all. No desire to get to know or understand the "West",

for a tiny handful - yes!
for the most part - no.

even we have bent over backwards to respect your rights and religion.

no, confused wiberwals have

What I am trying to say is that I think for many devout Muslims there is meeting of cultures, we are just the infidels, that are going to burn in hell and you Muslims have to insulate yourself from the "cess pool" of western culture. Where as the Bible has many verses of hell and damnation, the Koran has them on almost every page, in a very black and white fashion all "us and them", Muslims will be saved and every non Moslem will burn in hell and can be treated without any human rights.
you are t


So basically Muslims are angry and I don't think they like anyone outside their own religion and culture, and many of them seem like the "enemy within" to mainstream British society. I'm not talking about moderate Muslims and I realise the generallising, but huge numbers of Muslims hold Bin Laden as their hero and believe terrorist attacks would be justified against the UK.

So how do you answer that charge? That you and other Muslims, that are angry about the war, never liked British western society anyway and never will.
Salaam

you are totally utterly wrong and this has come about cos
a) you are a such a monumentally thick, ignorant fucker that the tabloids do your thinking for you
b|) you have translated a sitch that applies to a tiny handful and applied it indiscriminately to all
and
c) above all - you haven't bothered to go and find out the human truth for yourself

And the war is just an excuse to stir up hatred and maximise your own power base to expand your own interests.

who started the frigging war you utter total moron? look - you may be incapable of listening to those better informede and better-brained than you, so let mke spell this out.
YOU'RE WRONG.
And you're thick as shit.
so listen to the adults.

 

[nino_savatte]

come off it. He expresses himself like a mute in an Iron Maiden, but you can still read adequately between the lines.

He's talking about a generation of sheep who willingly bleat the line that America is bad, is after Iraq's oil etc and just swallowing the inane line fed by the Indy.
Badly put, but ultimately a decent point.

A rather reductive analysis there, if I may say so. Why is it that some folk feel compelled to label anything that is critical of US foreign policy as "anti-American"? Furthermore, who is being 'brainwashed' by The Independent? Isn't it possible that people can draw their own conclusions from what is printed in a paper? The hypodermic syinge theory has been proved ineffective, so the line about a "generation of sheep" is a myth.

I take you know who Bruce Anderson is - non? He writes for the Indy and he's as blue as you, baby!

 

[nino_savatte]

Saddam Hussain a total an absolute enemy of the US and Britain.

So are obesity and adolescent alcoholism. I see no efforts to rid the respective nations of these foes.

Nice bit of Manichaenism there.

 

[Aldebaran]

.../...There was no sinister plots to steal oil.../...

To make it easy for you to get started read this thread

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=191283

It turns out that he wasn't and the invasion has been a disaster, but Saddam Hussein really did have a part to play in a whole thing, when the weapons inspectors first went in they were so messed about it looked like Saddam Hussein really was up to no good.

To make it easy for you to get started read the book

Hans Blix
Disarming Iraq
2004,Pantheon Books, New York

I can't give you the ISBN reference because I have it in translation. (I hope you know who Hans Blix is?)

What I am saying it I agree we made a big mistake in Iraqi but it was just honest people doing what they thought was the right thing at the time.

Yes, they were honest in murdering hundreds of thousands.

The second point is to do with the Muslim community in the UK.

I have nothing to see with that. I am Middle Eastern. My connection with Europe goes through my late mother who was European.

Most Muslims hate Bush and Blair and are very angry about the war in Iraqi

It is only the latest problem we have with or because of the West.
To make it easy for you to get started, read this thread, and more specific, the analysis you find under the link in the OP.

Islam and suicidal terrorism: Analysing connections

The problem I and many others have, is that I never got the feeling that you really liked British an American culture in the first place.

Why would I *need* to like it? I have nothing to see with it.
I like some aspects of British culture though. Especially the typical British sense of humour and wit.

What I am trying to say is that I think for many devout Muslims there is no meeting of cultures,

You should read some history. A few surprises are waiting for you in discovering how intertwined the history of the ME and Europe actually is since centuries.

we are just the infidels, that are going to burn in hell

Take it from an Islamic scholar that no Muslim can judge about anyone - not even about himself - that a person is going to hell.

and you Muslims have to insulate yourself from the "cess pool" of western culture.

I suppose you are happy to be born where you are. So am I.
Just a little question: Do you want to become part of my culture ... or is it that you would rather like to have it pushed onto you... at gunpoint if that seems the best method for me?

Where as the Bible has many verses of hell and damnation, the Koran has them on almost every page, in a very black and white fashion all "us and them", Muslims will be saved and every non Moslem will burn in hell and can be treated without any human rights.

Al Qur'an says no such thing, but then... You need to read it with a willingness to understand and be educated.

I'm not talking about moderate Muslims

There exists no such thing like a "moderate Muslim". Someone is Muslim or is not.

but huge numbers of Muslims hold Bin Laden as their hero

Let's keep it simple and contemporan:
Huge numbers of US'ers hold Bush as their hero and believe everything he does is "needed" and "justified"..
What is the difference between bin laden and Bush? I think the numbers of people murdered at their order is a good start for a comparison.

aleikum wa salaam.

 

[Streathamite]

good stuff aldebaran
I demolished the ignorant little toerag first tho

 

[Aldebaran]

good stuff aldebaran
I demolished the ignorant little toerag first tho

To say it in English: sometimes ignorance is bliss

salaam.

 

[Greebozz]

To make it easy for you to get started read this thread

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=191283



To make it easy for you to get started read the book

Hans Blix
Disarming Iraq
2004,Pantheon Books, New York

I can't give you the ISBN reference because I have it in translation. (I hope you know who Hans Blix is?)



Yes, they were honest in murdering hundreds of thousands.




I have nothing to see with that. I am Middle Eastern. My connection with Europe goes through my late mother who was European.



It is only the latest problem we have with or because of the West.
To make it easy for you to get started, read this thread, and more specific, the analysis you find under the link in the OP.

Islam and suicidal terrorism: Analysing connections



Why would I *need* to like it? I have nothing to see with it.
I like some aspects of British culture though. Especially the typical British sense of humour and wit.



You should read some history. A few surprises are waiting for you in discovering how intertwined the history of the ME and Europe actually is since centuries.



Take it from an Islamic scholar that no Muslim can judge about anyone - not even about himself - that a person is going to hell.



I suppose you are happy to be born where you are. So am I.
Just a little question: Do you want to become part of my culture ... or is it that you would rather like to have it pushed onto you... at gunpoint if that seems the best method for me?



Al Qur'an says no such thing, but then... You need to read it with a willingness to understand and be educated.



There exists no such thing like a "moderate Muslim". Someone is Muslim or is not.



Let's keep it simple and contemporan:
Huge numbers of US'ers hold Bush as their hero and believe everything he does is "needed" and "justified"..
What is the difference between bin laden and Bush? I think the numbers of people murdered at their order is a good start for a comparison.

aleikum wa salaam.

Please Aldebaran just don't kill us all, I beg you.

 

[rhod]

OK.... one more thread for the troll dustbin, methinks

 

[Greebozz]

OK.... one more thread for the troll dustbin, methinks

Anyone who calls me a troll is on my ingnore list for good, it has been nice reading your posts.

 

[nino_savatte]

Anyone who calls me a troll is on my ingnore list for good, it has been nice reading your posts.

But it's true - isn't it? You have put forward some very specious arguments, many of which have been demolished.

 

[Blagsta]

Please Aldebaran just don't kill us all, I beg you.

prick

 

[Streathamite]

Anyone who calls me a troll is on my ingnore list for good, it has been nice reading your posts.

if you are for real, rather than just trolling you are the most woefully ignorant, ill-informed, pigheaded and frankly thick person I have ever seen commmenting on the M/east in general and Iraq in particular, tbh.
You are WRONG. 100%. face it. and ALL of your 'arguments' (well, fact free tripe) have been demolished consequently. Face it.

 

[Greebozz]

Wars starts when communication breaks downeg Saddam and the Iraq war . Aldebaran and Red Jezza if you are British you should both be charged with treason. Or do you belong to some separate state within Britain.

 

[kyser_soze]

All I know about the Indy is that it's readers are the liberal equivalent of Daily Mail readers, who need to be informed that apocalypse is just round the corner by a combination of Bush, Blair and Global Warming and that anything that isn't one of these is OK.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I often wonder if it might not be possible to nail Blair for treason, or maybe it's treachery.

Specifically for his acting in the interests of a foreign power, and against those interests which he was elected to look after.

 

[Streathamite]

Wars starts when communication breaks downeg Saddam and the Iraq war . Aldebaran and Red Jezza if you are British you should both be charged with treason. Or do you belong to some separate state within Britain.

You really do need to lay off the medication. have you always had shit for brains or are you actually mentally retarded? This country needs people like me more than it does mentally subnormal freaks like you.
What DOES it feel like to be so wrong on everything all the time?