If Americans Knew

[rachamim18]

Moono: Hate to rain on your parade but I actually have the recordings, made from Israeli TV. Unlike you, I do not need the Guardian's biased translators to enlighten me with their knowledge. Funny though, the tv reports have NEVER claimed that she was walking east, away from the IDF. They do contain, in Hebrew, the Observer radioning that she was i.d.d as approximately 10 and in emotionally distressed. HOWEVER, He also mentions that she is carrying a satchel [i.e. FITS THE M.O. OF A BOMBER]. In addition, she was described as running at "full speed," not walking. Arab "docotors" offer how many times she was shot? Where is the sutopsy report? Who was this doctor? Wow, you have to love the Guardian.

Moono, you are obviously taken with the region and SOME of its people. Why not invest in a Mid East media package so that you might benefit from first hand accounts instead of third hand bad translations? Seems only logical. At the very least, listen to streamlined boradcasts.

Moono, how many rounds does a Galil magazine have? Do you even know? Zzzz....Do you know what a "confirmation shot" is?

Nino: Iniate a thread on it and I will be glad to "introduce" alot of "evidence."

Also glad to see Fridge's words have had such a positive effect on you as well. Sigh...

Cemerty: I do live in New York. Specfically, I live at 400 Brook Ave, Bronx, NY 10454 USA. Hope it helps. What about you?

Provos have not boarded buses and blown themselves and bystanders up. Provos have not stated their aim is to exterminate the English people. The IRA is a picnic compared to Arab militias in Israel.

 

[moono]

Guardian ? Rachamim ?

Rachamim ? Guardian ?

Tough choice.

Rachamim;

Moono, how many rounds does a Galil magazine have? Do you even know? Zzzz....Do you know what a "confirmation shot" is?

I'm more of a 'right hander' man. Tell me what a 'confirmation shot' is.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Moono, how many rounds does a Galil magazine have? Do you even know? Zzzz....Do you know what a "confirmation shot" is?

5.56 or 7.62?

You shouldn't ask trick questions, btw. It's unkind.

Anyway, was he actually carrying a Galil? Half of your people appear to tote M16 A1s and CAR-15s.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Iniate a thread on it and I will be glad to "introduce" alot of "evidence."

What are you talking about...or have the opiates kicked in? Whatever the case, you aren't making any sense.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: I would never WANT anyone to take MY word for anything here. I would hope though, that they would avail themselves to disparate sources so as to ascertain whether or not something they have read or seen is true or false. Bias is part of the human condition. There is no such thing as a completely objective source. However, it is possible by using disparate sources to get a very good handle on facts. For example, the Guardian represents one consistent viewpoint, Fox News the opposite. Somehwere in the middle is the actual truth.

A "confirmation shot" is a bullet fired into a person that already appears dead so as to ensure that they do not ambush you.

Panda: Those are the sizes of the rounds the IDF uses. I meant how many rounds in a magazine but it is neither here nor there as the PL was not the only armed IDF soldier on post.

You are right though in the choice of weaponry but I have not seen any non-elite units using foreign weaponry in the "Territories" since about 94.

Nino: Asuide from your usual pleasant remarks, you again asked for evidence on the bias of the Guardian or BBC. By the way, short term memory loss is not a side effect of opiates/opioidsd...although they can make you forget your problems for a little while.

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

A "confirmation shot" is a bullet fired into a person that already appears dead so as to ensure that they do not ambush you.

Appears dead ? How does 'dead' appear ?

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

...I wonder though, if in London people were constantly blowing themselves [and any unlucky passerby] to kingdom come, would most posters here be so flippant and superior minded. All the nonsense about land grabbiong and racism...

It is easy to toss phrases like that around when your kids are safe and sound. See how you are living after a few decades of constant terrorism.

Erm, actually, we did have a lot of terrorism in the UK due to Northern Ireland.

There were bombings and almost daily bomb alerts. Living in London particularly, people were very regularly cleared out of tube trains and stations due to bomb alerts, sometimes hoax calls, sometimes someone leaving some luggage lying around, sometimes there actually was a device. Living elsewhere, much the same, train stations and shopping centres were regularly evacuated.

It's almost 10 years since the IRA bombed Manchester, my home town on 15 June 1996, the second largest attack on the British mainland, that blew apart half a shopping mall and some office blocks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/15/newsid_2527000/2527009.stm

Two hundred people injured, several seriously. Tbh, I'm not a particularly religious person, but I honestly, sincerely, truly believe it was a miracle that nobody was killed that day (although plenty of other people have been killed due to The Conflict). I think you would too if you had seen the devastation caused by bombing a busy shopping district in the middle of a Saturday, such was the devastation that it took nearly ten years to rebuild the city centre.

But you know what? Just because a handful of Irish terrorists blew up our city, we didn't go and bomb the shit out of Dublin, the capital of the Irish Republic. And we didn't go and bomb the shit out of New York and Boston because loads of Irish-Americans funded terrorism.

We lived in fear of terrorism for decades, thanks in part due to ignorant Americans who gave the terrorists money to fund their terrorism campaigns.

So we actually do know what it's like to not be safe and sound, for our kids to live in fear of terrorism attacks. But we didn't go and indiscriminately carpet bomb innocent people in foreign cities on some weird vengeance trip.

 

[moono]

Ace post. Nice to hear a sane voice.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

How about you provide some evidence of the alleged "anti-Jewishness" of the BBC and The Guardian first?

Adding to nino's point, I'd ask Rachamim to read the following before bleating about anti-Jewish bias of the BBC in particular:

"The [BBC] Board of Governors has published today the Independent Panel Report into the impartiality of BBC coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

In October 2005 the Governors commissioned the panel, chaired by Sir Quentin Thomas, to "assess the impartiality of BBC news and current affairs coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with particular regard to accuracy, fairness, context, balance and bias, actual or perceived".

The panel's review covered the BBC's UK domestic public service output only.

The Governors received the panel's report at their Board meeting last week and welcomed its finding of no deliberate or systematic bias."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2006/05_may/02/conflict.shtml

http://www.bbcgovernors.co.uk/docs/rev_israelipalestinian.html

Tbh, I was surprised the BBC even bothered to commission that report, but obviously felt it had to pander to the Jewish lobby that complains so vociferously every time a report about the issue appears on television/radio, bleating about how unfair the coverage is, and how anti-semitic, when in fact it's the opposite:

http://www.gla.ac.uk/departments/sociology/units/media/israel.htm

A previous independent academic study carried out at Glasgow University's media centre found that in relation to television news, including the BBC output, the Israeli viewpoint was more often heard as more people were interviewed defending and supporting the Israeli viewpoint. Studies have also shown that more often than not, Palestinian actions have been identified or referred to as aggression and terrorism, even when they are tit-for-tat responding to aggression from Israel, such as assassinations, the razing of homes, killing of innocent civilians and so on. The Israelis are more often (mis)represented as victims, when they are clearly the more economically and militarily powerful party.

I hope this lays rest to the myth of anti-semitic anti-Israeli reporting bollocks once and for all. It simply is not backed up by the facts. Just because people like you find the truth unpalatable rachamim, doesn't make it untrue.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Rachamim: Don't take my word for it that we've lived in fear of terrorism:

A little old Mancunian lady, covered in blood from the IRA's Manchester bomb:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523526,00.html

Pictures of Canary Wharf, London, and another of Manchester's shopping district, both blown up by terrorist bombs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubles/agreement/breakdown.shtml

More images of the extent of devastation in Manchester, with a moving poem by an Irish woman that's just brought tears to my eyes:
http://www.nhi.clara.net/baby/baby017.htm

 

[rachamim18]

Ann: As I have already stated a couple of times, the IRA never boarded a bus blowinh themselves and others up. Other than them, you have had what? One incident? Bit different Ann but even there look what your authorities did...they shot an innocent man to death in the Tube. Ergo, when people are faced with difficult times they tend to take strong actions. Overall I would say Israel has done pretty damn well.

If I had seen the devestation of a bombing attack? I have seen many, in 3 nations. Here in NYC for example I am currently working at World Trade. I just came back since my union works in a specific trade BUT did work there right after the planes hit and for 4 years after. I am a veteran of Operation Peace for Galilee in Lebanon and that is where so called "suicide bombing" was invented. Of course living in Israel I have also witnessed my share of tragedy. All in all I imagine that I am pretty well versed in what bombs and terror can do.

Aside from your expletives, Israel does not bomb ANYONE. It fires precison missl\ile strikes in one of the most densely populates spots on Earth in order to remove people PERSONALLY responsible [as opposed to cities] for murdering dozens of Israeli men, women, and children. It would not have to fire a single missile IF the PA obeyed International Law as well as its own laws and disarmed the militants and prosecuted those that circumvented them.

As for foreign cities, although it si now home to millions of Arabs, it is a traditionally Jewish land. It is anything but foreign to Israel.

On ignorant Americans, if they gave money to the IRA, and many did, thety deserve the maximum meted out to any supporter of Arab terrorism. They prosecute such people in america and they should certainly do the same to ANYONE that supports the , or rather supported the IRA.

In your second post you raise the issue of the BBC. By raising it though, you fail to realise that even the BBC admits that it MIGHT have a problem by that act of self policing. By the way, it was only concerned with UK programming. The BBC is worldwide. If you listen to the Arab Service, and I do, you would probably not even have posted that.

For you Ann, I think that I will do what I would not do for Nino. I do believe that I will touch on the subject, hopefully tomorrow time permitting.

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

On ignorant Americans, if they gave money to the IRA, and many did, thety deserve the maximum meted out to any supporter of Arab terrorism.

What's the maximum meted out to supporters of Zionist terrorism ?

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Rachamim;

What's the maximum meted out to supporters of Zionist terrorism ?

Aren't we still waiting for the Attorney General to press for war crimes charges against those in the Israeli forces responsible for the deaths of Tom Hurndall* (British student, studying in Manchester incidentally, peace activist - not terrorist - who was murdered in cold blood as he went to the aid of children as Israeli soldiers took pot shots at them) and James Miller (British journalist, clearly identified as a journalist, yet murdered in cold blood by Israeli soldiers).

*Taysir Hayb was found guilty of manslaughter, amongst other things and sentenced to eight years, but the British Attorney General is currently looking into the possibility of pushing for Hayb to be prosecuted for war crimes as a British inquest found that Hurndall had been murdered.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: Rephrase your question if you actually want a response.

Ann: Mr. Hundall was indeed murdered, but not for going to the aid of childrern. Nor were any children being shot at. The IDF does not aim for children. Mr. Hundall was working with children in that community though. Please get your facts correct.

As for the UK pressing charges, it will never happen so do not hold your breath. The murderer is already serving a stiff sentence in a maximum security Israeli prison. By the way, the prisons in Israel make English ones [from what I gather] look like hotels. I am sure the murderer would love to serve it in the UK.

Your blurb at the end is correct. However, as stated, it will never happen. There is a legal principle known as "Double Jeapordy." Although it does not technically apply to different nations, it is still respected.

 

[kyser_soze]

I think it is very clear what he is saying, and it is also very clear what I am saying.

He says Israel is solely to blame for the current situation.

I am saying 1) that is not true, others played a very significant role, and 2) it is counterproductive to blame solely one side.






Are alternative perspectives not allowed here?

Do you have trouble reading and comprehending English? I quite clearly state several times over the 4 or 5 posts that AFAIC BOTH SIDES are responsible for the mess - the Arabs for invading Israel and the co-commitant mindset that created among Israelis, and the Israelis for taking the wrong lesson from history and effectively becoming oppressors in their own right.

The tenor of most threads on this subject is entirely based around blame and 'it's your fault/no it's your fault' arguments - possibly one of the reasons that few people ever bother coming to the ME forums with anything like new ideas because quite simply no one who is even vaguely interested and takes a 'side' is interested in listening, as astronaut's idiotic replies to my posts clearly proves.

 

[Cakes]

So, when truly examing the issue, what has Isreal REALLY done? Checkpoints? Curfews? The PA has many more and far less effieicntly managed.

Does the PA have more checkpoints than Israel? That really suprises me as one of the common complaints of Palestinians is the disturbance and injustice of checkpoints. I hear so many accounts of how checkpoints restrict movement and prevent access to work places, healthcare, (even emergency healthcare) education and even access to parts of Palestinain's own farms. It seems amazing that most of these are run by the PA.

Do Israelis suffer similar restrictions at the PA checkpoints?

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Asuide from your usual pleasant remarks, you again asked for evidence on the bias of the Guardian or BBC. By the way, short term memory loss is not a side effect of opiates/opioidsd...although they can make you forget your problems for a little while.

So you have no evidence to support your allegations that the BBC and The Guardian are "anti-Jewish"....is that correct?

Just as I thought, you're not only a bully but a liar as well.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: Those are the sizes of the rounds the IDF uses.

Well duh! :rollseyes:

I meant how many rounds in a magazine but it is neither here nor there as the PL was not the only armed IDF soldier on post.

The reason I asked about the calibre (amazed you didn't pick up on this) is because the Galil in 7.62 has 35 round mags, the 5.56 (except the "micro") has 35 and 50 round mags.
Given that the 5.56 is "standard issue" then asking how many rounds a Galil holds has 2 answers (even though I'm led to believe that the 50 round mags aren't well-liked).

 

[kyser_soze]

So you have no evidence to support your allegations that the BBC and The Guardian are "anti-Jewish"....is that correct?

Just as I thought, you're not only a bully but a liar as well.

Well, given that on these boards both the BBC and Guardian have been accused of being anti-Palestinian this probably means that, like the 'pro-Labour/pro-Tory rows about the Beeb in particular it probably means they are somewhere near the middle...

 

[nino_savatte]

Well, given that on these boards both the BBC and Guardian have been accused of being anti-Palestinian this probably means that, like the 'pro-Labour/pro-Tory rows about the Beeb in particular it probably means they are somewhere near the middle...

Sure, neither one is pro or anti Israel/Palestine. If anything the BBC is pro-state and The Guardian has an obligation to its shareholders. I noticed R18 missed my point about The Daily Mail though.

 

[kyser_soze]

Ummm...The Guardian is owned by a charitable trust and as such doesn't have shareholders, only a board of trustees nino...

http://www.gmgplc.co.uk/gmgplc/scott/scottintro/

 

[nino_savatte]

Ummm...The Guardian is owned by a charitable trust and as such doesn't have shareholders, only a board of trustees nino...

http://www.gmgplc.co.uk/gmgplc/scott/scottintro/

Fair enough but it does take advertising which means that it has to play by certain rules. Still, R18's insistence that it is an anti-Jewish newspaper is laughable.

 

[kyser_soze]

There have been more risible statements on U75, but that's pretty close to it.

 

[rachamim18]

Cakes: It has been little publicesd, but YES, the PA operates many more checkpoints than the Israelis ever have. In fact, Israeli checkpoints were a form of social control as well as a security meansure. Israel for example
has strict age requirement as to who can get express passes at checkpoints and periodically lowers them as to the continued level or pacification. The average wait tim at even the busiest point, on foot is 15 minutes, via auto it is 20 minutes.

The PA on the hand has no express passes. They never remove them [IDF ceases operation in periods ranging from, 20 minutes to 7 days depending on security threat]from operation and the average wait is well over an hour on foot and can be as long as 3 via auto. Of course, sad to say, bakhsheesh is the rule of the day.

As for abuses at checkpoints, again, the PA makes the IDF look like saints. Yet, International Peace Activists NEVER monitor "Palestinian" operated checkpoints.... Hmmm...Wonder why?

Do Israelis suffer similar restrictions at PA run checkpoints? One does not find too many Israelis ever needing or wanting togo to PA controlled area. You do not see many Israelis going for a swim down Gaza way. Won't see anyone other than junkikes head into Jericho. One does see "PAlestinians" doing horrendous things to other "Palestinians" but it is just not sexy enough for Activists.

Nino: Tell you what, aside from the thousands of hits talking about the issue, or the BBC's own internal investigations into the matter, and tons of suits brought on by disgrunteled listerners, I will do YOU a SPECIAL FAVOR and p.m. you a list of 10 fairl recent incidents in both, total of 20, as my scheduale permits. Hope you find it interesting

Panda: Correct. Anyway, in a way sad to see it go but we are switching to the Tavor. Know of it? We have been breaking them in. I had one on my last duty. It is a fantastic piece. Open eye firing, integrated scope, and lighter even then an M16. Spits 900 plus a minute on 20 or 30 round clips. The Galil is great piece, especially for most of our conditions. Nothing beats it on dust and sand but in CQC/UC, the Tavor is a Rolls Royce.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Tell you what, aside from the thousands of hits talking about the issue, or the BBC's own internal investigations into the matter, and tons of suits brought on by disgrunteled listerners, I will do YOU a SPECIAL FAVOR and p.m. you a list of 10 fairl recent incidents in both, total of 20, as my scheduale permits. Hope you find it interesting

What "internal investigation"? You keep saying the BBC are "anti-Jewish" but cannot provide the evidence. Indeed your allegations match those of the neo cons during the Iraq invasion who called the BBC "pro-Iraqi". This is nothing new and nor is demonising one's enemy...or a news gatherer who actually reports the news and doesn't subsititute the opinions of a talking head for facts. I take it you prefer the latter.

If the BBC were "anti-Jewish" there would be one hell of a stink in Parliament. Furthermore, the BBC would run the risk of falling foul of the Board of Deputies...none of whom have called the Beeb "anti-Jewish" and they're as reactionary a bunch as you're ever likely to see.

 

[kyser_soze]

Rach, if the current Palestinian govt and security forces end up making things a lot worse they won't need you to shout about it - I don't think the predictable argument about economic hardship will stand up too long if it becomes apparent there are significant human rights issues.

 

[nino_savatte]

I don't expect you to pm me anything, R18. If you do, I expect it to come from Mellon-Scaife or a similar source of disinformation.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: Correct. Anyway, in a way sad to see it go but we are switching to the Tavor. Know of it? We have been breaking them in. I had one on my last duty. It is a fantastic piece. Open eye firing, integrated scope, and lighter even then an M16. Spits 900 plus a minute on 20 or 30 round clips. The Galil is great piece, especially for most of our conditions. Nothing beats it on dust and sand but in CQC/UC, the Tavor is a Rolls Royce.

I've seen schematics for the Tavor, and on paper it does look "the business" for the role it was designed for, although I have a personal prejudice against bullpup rifles (I trained on the British FN FAL variant, a "proper" infantry rifle). Good to see that there's the option to eject to either side on the Tavor though, as training left-handed people to fire "wrong-handed" wastes natural talent IMO.

 

[rachamim18]

Kyser: No offence but you must not be following it too closely. Humanitarian AID has NEVER been curtailed in ANY way. The problems you now hear about is just par for the course. It is the reason they lost in 47/48. Factionalism is never going to do the trick.

Nino: I guess you do not follow this or other threads too carefully. Ann listed a BBC in house investigation over these same allegations . The investigation only looked at domestic output, and only then on a limited basis and on limited outlets.

I will p.m. it because I will not keep causing this and other threads to suffer meltdown.

 

[kyser_soze]

Kyser: No offence but you must not be following it too closely. Humanitarian AID has NEVER been curtailed in ANY way. The problems you now hear about is just par for the course. It is the reason they lost in 47/48. Factionalism is never going to do the trick.

Never said or implied it wasn't - what I meant was that there will be an inevitable argument from the pro-Pal crew that the US/EU sanctions are creating a situation/making it worse and thus 'justifying' a security clampdown by the PA.