IDF shoot blindfolded and handcuffed prisoner at close range with a rubber bullet.

[tangentlama]

Want to help me out then?

Make sure you don't lose sight of the topic with your history lection. Make it relevant, or don't bother, because we need to focus on what is happening today and where we are in the civil, political, and militarial(incl.militant) processes today.

 

[Spion]

Nobody denies that Israel struck first Spion.

As it did in 1956 with the UK and France, as it did with the planting of bombs in Egyptian cities that resulted in the Lavon affair, as it did in 1967. Israel has form here. Those are not the actions of a state that is *defending* itself.

I'll dig through the detailed events when I get chance, but rest assured the historical record shows Israel was not under any threat that couldn't have been defended against and the Egyptians were in fact attempting a peaceful solution (admittedly while also sabre rattling, the latter of which gave the Israeli pretext to grab land by conquest)

 

[tangentlama]

Moving swiftly from discussion on the brinkmanship of the past to the current situation....

 

[Spymaster]

I'll dig through the detailed events when I get chance ...

I'd be interested to read whatever you post.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Want to help me out then?

Well, there aren't that many non-partisan web sources, so I'd recommend reading something pacy and reasonably accurate and balanced like Jeremy Bowen's book on the six day war. IIRC it has a decent bibliography too.

 

[Spion]

Moving swiftly from discussion on the brinkmanship of the past to the current situation....

Yes, good call. Ending the occupation, siege, wall, land theft, IDF/IAF attacks is the priority for anyone who wants peace.

 

[Spymaster]

Well, there aren't that many non-partisan web sources, so I'd recommend reading something pacy and reasonably accurate and balanced like Jeremy Bowen's book on the six day war. IIRC it has a decent bibliography too.

"Six Days:How The 1967 War Shaped The Middle East".

Ordered. Thanks.

 

[Spymaster]

What is it that you want to discuss Tangent?

 

[Grandma Death]

So you're trolling then?

 

[Spymaster]

So you're trolling then?

No. But I apologise for the personal comments.

 

[tangentlama]

UPDATE
IDF Lt. Col who was in charge whilst handcuffed/blindfolded demonstrator shot in foot placed on 10-day leave-of-absence with Major-General noting that the incident indicated a severe lapse in judgment and a "moral and authoritative failure" on the commander's part;

Border Guard officer, suspected of shooting Nilin 10-year old boy dead, placed under house arrest: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3577202,00.html

 

[tangentlama]

UPDATE
IDF Lt. Col (Commander of regiment Binyamin Region Brigade) is to be dismissed and charged with conduct unbecoming an officer. B'Tselem call this minor charge 'shameful'. The soldier who fired the gun is to face criminal charges of 'improper conduct'. A plea bargain could see both IDF men handed a conditional sentence.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3578870,00.html

 

[ymu]

Just posting a note of appreciation for your efforts on this thread, tangentlama.

 

[Grandma Death]

Just posting a note of appreciation for your efforts on this thread, tangentlama.

Seconded.

 

[ViolentPanda]

UPDATE
IDF Lt. Col who was in charge whilst handcuffed/blindfolded demonstrator shot in foot placed on 10-day leave-of-absence with Major-General noting that the incident indicated a severe lapse in judgment and a "moral and authoritative failure" on the commander's part;

Border Guard officer, suspected of shooting Nilin 10-year old boy dead, placed under house arrest: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3577202,00.html

I find it reprehensible that the Lt. Colonel is seeking to evade his responsibilities by continuing to "... maintain that the soldier acted independently". The soldier is under his command, if not at field level then at regimental level. He's responsible for the regime in which a soldier felt it was permissible to take such an action.

 

[ymu]

I find it reprehensible that the Lt. Colonel is seeking to evade his responsibilities by continuing to "... maintain that the soldier acted independently". The soldier is under his command, if not at field level then at regimental level. He's responsible for the regime in which a soldier felt it was permissible to take such an action.

Absolutely. But it's a lot worse from that (see tang's second update link).

Once the probe got under way, investigators discovered disagreements between the soldier and his commander. The soldier claimed that he fired at the Palestinian on the orders of Lt. Col. Bruberg. However, Bruberg said he did not issue such order, but rather, only wanted to scare the Palestinian.

Subsequent polygraph tests indicated that the commander lied in his interrogation while the soldier was telling the truth.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Absolutely. But it's a lot worse from that (see tang's second update link).

He deserves to be broken to the ranks for that.

 

[teqniq]

He deserves to be broken to the ranks for that.

He's been 'reassigned'.

 

[Grandma Death]

He's been 'reassigned'.

Thats outrageous What will they do with the soldier who shot the 10 year old....promote him??

 

[ViolentPanda]

He's been 'reassigned'.

Disgusting. Give him five years, he'll probably be a full colonel or a brigadier. He should have been stripped of his commission.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thats outrageous What will they do with the soldier who shot the 10 year old....promote him??

He's been stripped of his rank and reduced to private.

 

[tangentlama]

Editorial in today's Ha'aretz:

The picture emerging from the indictment as formulated is that the utter prohibition on shooting a shackled individual has not been instilled and has not been internalized. The soldier did not view an order to shoot, if he received one, as a blatantly illegal order. The commander did not understand the illegality in the threat to shoot a person in shackles. The battalion commander said - according to the indictment - in order to frighten the Palestinian: "What do you say? Shall we take him aside and shoot him?" and the soldier replied: "I have no problem shooting rubber [bullets] at him."

The commander said: "Insert a bullet," and the soldier said, "I have one in the barrel," and fired. Only after the soldier had fired did his commander clarify to him that "one doesn't shoot a person who is tied up."

The decision to try the two on a relatively minor charge sends a message to soldiers that the IDF is prepared to close its eyes, at least partially, and is not outraged, as might be expected, at the shooting of a shackled person.

Transferring Lt. Col. Borberg to another position in the army is a wink to soldiers that hints that perhaps in the future, when the tempest blows over, the officer will find his place in the command chain anew. The opportunity to send a message of total intolerance of shooting a person in shackles has been missed.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1010675.html

 

[rachamim18]

Spion: In discussing the "Lavon Affair" as it is so often known in the West you neglect almost the entire underlying geopolitical context. Namely the nationalisation of the Suez, built largely with European funds. You also neglect the side dynamic that once nationalised it would then put a very effective stranglehold on incoming Israeli shipping.

Nasserism, or rather the Nasserite mantra of Pan-Arabism would have endangered an entire region and it was not only France, UK, and Israel up in arms mind you. Local Arab Govts, some erstwhile allies of the Great Arab Hope wanted Nasser taken out post haste or at least assurances of an uninterrupted status quo.

To fault a nation with less than 10 years in existence who is threatened with ecomonomic strangulatiuon by a meglomaniac committed to its very destruction and extermination of its people is to deny reality to an easy 9/10ths of the contemporary world.

That Israel, France, and the UK were at the right time and place to take on the task does not then villfy them to anyone but a Nasserite. If you want to start harping about challenges of sovereignity remember carefully what Egypt did with Gaza.

Remember that the preJFK Americans had concluded that Israel had precious little strategical value if anything to offer tham and effectively abandoned them , casting their lot in with oil rich Arab States. Surely you are well aware of "Plan Alpha?" No?

The US building it so called "Northern Tier Alliance" between Iran, Turkey, and Pakistan with those nations Arab (excepting Pakistan of course) preiphery nations to be brought into the loop pending a fortitous outcome. Nasser was the lynchpin to securing this alliance and was to benefit nicely given its success. In fact, he was actually promised the entire Negev, a parcel he had long desired and this firmly brought him into the US orbit early on.

As this posturing and wheeling were taking place Nasser allowed many gurilla groups to utlise the Sinai and Tiran to launch murderous raids into southern Israel.

In the summer of 1954 Nasser seized the Israeli ship "Bat Galim" that was legally transiting the Suez. Only after Bat Galim and the sad reality that Israel would be denied access to this canal, assurances given in wirting by its administrators prior to naturalisation.

Then, stepping up the battle of wits a notch or two he crushed hopes outlines in "Plan Alpha" and almost immediately flew to the Soviet embrace. This being the height of the Cold War, Nasser chose his side.

This then led to tit for tat border skirmshes and raids and in 1955 via Chezck suppliers managed to purchase more arms that one year than all other Arab Nations combined. Israel was not going to take notice of this?

When, in the spring of 1956 he signed agreements granting continued and unfettered access to the Suez for the UK and France and weeks later , without notice reversed them entirely and unilateraly nationalised the waterway as had been long feared, would you imagine Israel would do ntohing?

The War was full of Causus Belli for Israel on many levels and Israel, under prodding of tactical (i.e. "good weather") allies amazingly and admirably managed to restrain itself and waitr for the opportune and proper moment.

It is oh so simple to toss out catch phrases you or others have very little understanding of but it helps a whole lot to provide a full and proper context.

 

[Grandma Death]

So Rach no comment on the story that has seen a soldier stripped of his rank-a story you originally rubbished BTW.

 

[rachamim18]

Spion: I will ask you to clairfy: In your post to Spy you claim that Israel could have easily avoided war but are vague as to what war. As one would expect I fully disagree with your contention as it related to either the Suez OR the 67 War but for the sake of brevity might you perhaps clarify the issue? Did you mean Israel could have avoided the 67 War?


On Panda's offering that there is not too many objective source material for the so called "6 Day War" (67 War is the Internationally Accepted and thus easier to research terminology), I do not seee that as terribly important. Humans are humans are humans. By taking whatever DATA is related, catalouging and cross referencing it you can easily get a very good handle on all the data. As for the mindset and supposed conversations of actors, primary and otherwise, that is indeed a bit tricker but can again be had with patience and foresight.

One book I find good on all accounts is "Six Days of War" by Michael Oren (now a Dr.), Oxford University Press (2002). It is quite accurate in many ways ands while I have a list of inaccuracies they number a paltry 4. IF you hope to peruse the book, and would like to know the 4, let me know by PM but suggest you read the book and then research any issues raised in it as I do. It is by far the vbest way to research any and all books.

For data try "The Arab and Israeli Wars: War and Peace in the Middle East (Revised and Updated)" by Chaim Herzog, updated by Shlomo Garzit, Published by Vintage, Division of Random House,(2004 printing).

Others that I find helpful but with alot of cross checking at every step:

"Egypt -Military Society -The Army Regime . the Left, and Social Change Under Nasser" Anouar Abdel Malek, Published by Vantage Press (1968)

"The Arab-Israeli Confrontation of June 1967": An Arab Perspective" Edited by I. Abu-Lughod ,Published by NW University Press (1970).

"Soviet Review of the Israeli-Arab June 1967 Conflict" I.P. Beliaev, T. Kolesnichenko, Y.M. Primako, Published by Joint Publicatrions Research Service, (1968) (I am not sure if available in non-Russian form but crucial for an OFFICIAL Soviet take on the dynamic).

"Economic Aid and American Policy Towards Egypt, 1955 -1981, Wm. J. Burns, Published by Albany State University of NY Press, (1985).

"War and Peace in ther Middle East: The Experiences and Views of a U.N. Observer, General Odd Bull, Published by Lee Cooper, (1973).



I can obviously offer pages upon pages of sources but in case you merely meant the Suez War I will switch tact and now offer some of those:

"Soldier of Peace:The Life of Yitzchak Rabin: 1922-1995" by Dan Kurzman, Published by Harper Collins (1998). ALSO applies to the Suez War as well!

Also applies to the "The Arab-Israeli Wars: War and Peace in the Middle East" by Chaim Herzog and updated by Shlomo Gazit, publishing info,etc. provided in the snippet above.

" L'Expedition de Suez Grasset" by A. Beaufre, translated by Richard Barry as "The Suex Expedition 1956," Published byPraeger, (1956). (Translation 1969).

"Airborne to Suez," S. Cavenagh, Published by Kimber, (1965).

"The Road to Suez", by E. Childers, Published by Macgibbon and Kee (1962).

And of course many, many more for those wanting...

 

[rachamim18]

Tanmgent: Correct on both updates but I fear you misunderstand the lack of implications. ANY CHARGE in the IDF and MAGAV (Border) is consiudered the same as far as protocol goes under Investigation) requires a full and thorough investigation and that is all the more tragic. While Investigators waist their time on this garbage actual trasngressions MAY take place and guess what? Investigators too musy pleasing Gush Shalom and other deluded types will be short manned and the real violations will go without redress.


The Capt? It has been widely reported in the press that he failed an IDF Polygraph. What had NOT been reported, AT ALL as far I can see, is that the week prior he took a privately administered polygraph and passed with full colours.

Again, simply look at the tape. Ever see a "Baton Round (aws Brits choose to call them) fired? They BOUNCE, and do so wildly., If I was a meter or two off of you and fired a round at your extremity you, me, and all those around us would be jumping like crazy. Noone did a thing.

Then there is the fact that less than 25 meters is fatal and this was 1.5 meters...What happenes? Bruised toe! Give me a bbreak! It is ridiculous.

As for the officer involved with the 10 year old boy, as usual Protocol must be followed. So, while they have given the poor boy's cadaver to the IDF for an autopsy the alleged gunman must be placed on such leave. It does not represent either guilt OR innocence. IF I recell the alleged shooter there was MAGAV as well and they are not allowed to carry chambered live rounds when on Demo Detail. His mates all fired Baton Rounds, he had a live one? Dount it but then the truth will at least be brought to bear in this case since they have the body, and I believe the shell. It should be easy enough to untangle.

Sadly, U75ers do not see fit to give the benefit of the doubt to the accused but to the accuser. If given a choice always vchoose the propaganda parrot, right? Well, the truth will tell...

 

[rachamim18]

"The picture emerging...:" IF people take the time to review three relatively recent events in Israeli history with regard to the IDF they will see remarkable parallels:

I) 10 year old Muhammed al Dura, lying in his dad's lap is shot by an IDF sniper. The sniper is found and subjected to a lengthly investigation.

II) Qana, a medium sized Lebanese city is aerial shelled by the IAF in the targetting of a Katyusha Launcher parked in its under the building parking area. The neutralisation results in the death of what is said to be more than 200 innocent Lebanese mostly women and children.

III) Jenin Camp, a "Palestinian" Refugeee Camp in the so called "WEst Bank" was subjected to an IDF large scalre excursiopn in 2002 and in the ensuing operation many of the flimsily built edifices were floored and Arafat held the hands of prominent Western journalists like the American news magazine "60 Minutes" and vowed that when the rubble was carefully removed the world would finally find proof positive of the Israseli Army's unfettered barbarity.

Proof of fetuses slit from the mother's bellies, raped pre-teen girl who were then mutilated, and many more such atrocious actions would show the world what Israel REALLY was. The go Minutes anchorman asked if this was really the case and the late Arafat assured him that friom Arafat's lips to Allah's ears it was true and would be proved so post haste.

Anyone want to guess what the commonality in all 3 actual events was? No, it was the naievete of the Westerns who lapped it up like hungry kittens begging for more. No, it was not how unbelievable this nonense was being that the areas in question were among the most heavily iinundated with CCTV in the world and yet no proof whatsoever was in existence!!!

Nope...the COMMONALITY was that when all was said and done, not a damn thing happened. Just like these two cases (the "swollen toe" and the "boy shot in the head when no Israeli had bullets") they were proved baseless and the world simply and very quietly moved onto the next piece of delusional propaganda...and of course almost always that meant anti-Jewish propaganda... SAD....

I also want to add for the thinking among you who dare to question just why the Captain PR the priovate in question wwere said to have admitted it, despite failing polygraphs to those effects, unless you have been interrogated...scratch that...and say, unless you have EVER been interrogated by a trtained Israeli interrogator do not even bother to ask.

The cases have , sadly, alot of pulic interest cache in a sensitive area (Barrier at Ni'ilin) and that about says it all but the truth shall triumph in the end.

 

[Grandma Death]

Tanmgent: Correct on both updates but I fear you misunderstand the lack of implications. ANY CHARGE in the IDF and MAGAV (Border) is consiudered the same as far as protocol goes under Investigation) requires a full and thorough investigation and that is all the more tragic. While Investigators waist their time on this garbage actual trasngressions MAY take place and guess what? Investigators too musy pleasing Gush Shalom and other deluded types will be short manned and the real violations will go without redress.


The Capt? It has been widely reported in the press that he failed an IDF Polygraph. What had NOT been reported, AT ALL as far I can see, is that the week prior he took a privately administered polygraph and passed with full colours.

Again, simply look at the tape. Ever see a "Baton Round (aws Brits choose to call them) fired? They BOUNCE, and do so wildly., If I was a meter or two off of you and fired a round at your extremity you, me, and all those around us would be jumping like crazy. Noone did a thing.

Then there is the fact that less than 25 meters is fatal and this was 1.5 meters...What happenes? Bruised toe! Give me a bbreak! It is ridiculous.

As for the officer involved with the 10 year old boy, as usual Protocol must be followed. So, while they have given the poor boy's cadaver to the IDF for an autopsy the alleged gunman must be placed on such leave. It does not represent either guilt OR innocence. IF I recell the alleged shooter there was MAGAV as well and they are not allowed to carry chambered live rounds when on Demo Detail. His mates all fired Baton Rounds, he had a live one? Dount it but then the truth will at least be brought to bear in this case since they have the body, and I believe the shell. It should be easy enough to untangle.

Sadly, U75ers do not see fit to give the benefit of the doubt to the accused but to the accuser. If given a choice always vchoose the propaganda parrot, right? Well, the truth will tell...

This is laughable really. What exactly do you think your post is? Propoganda free? You often label critics of Israel in this forum as if they are one homogenous group and proceed to make clear statements with no proof at all-do you not even realise how ludicrous this is?

 

[rachamim18]

And YOUR post is...?