IDF Officer Guilty In Shooting...

[rachamim18]

Diego: Per your "friend," blaming Israel for all the world's problems is simply racist. If you consider such a person to be a friend it does not take a great leap of faith to picture you as a racist as well. If mistaken, sorry but that is your m.o. it seems.

Then you audaciously berate me simply for supporting Israel, a legal and sovereign nation that by the way, contrary to your imaginings does not opporess Arabs but actually offers Israeli-Arabs, 20% of our population, more rights than Israeli-Jews! It also offers Arabs their highest standard of living in the entire Mid-East so you and the "Professor" might wish to ponder those bits of truth in your next "discussion."

Islamic Extremism existed long before Israel did, and along, long time before Israel's winning of the 67 War (and pursuant administration of the so called "WB" and Gaza).

Bin Laden hates the West not because of Israel, he attacked the US, care to notice? Know why he did so? Because the Saudi Monarchy had the nerve to allow American Armed Forces onto Saudi soil, in what is deemed Islam's holiest nations. This was considered sacrilege by Osama, et al.

His number 2. al Zarwhari is against the secularisation of Arab Govts, a cause Osama also holds dear.

Israel and Jews in general are simply secondary causes AT BEST, usually more accurately listed as 4th or 5th hand causes. Are you sure your pal is even in school?

"Georgia and Israeli involvement.": Israel also has a similar relationship with Rumania, Eritrea, and literally 88 other nations, many of which are very tight with the Russians who by the way took pains to notify Jerusalem during their Georgian Adventure not to pay too much attention, it in no way changed Russia and Israel's "warm relations." One would have thought that your friend the "professor" would have known this very basic and widely reported fact. Curious indeed!

You imagine, or is it your "professor" imagining that Israel is afraid of Russia? You might want to talk to some military officers instead of a professor because the IDF is number one operationally in the world. Israel would have never gotten itself involved militarily on Georgia's behalf and why would you ever imagine otherwise? The relationship is strictly economic is in hard currency for Israeli Arms, not "friendship."

Putin's call as you termed it (it was not Putin by the way but the Russian FM) was as I stated, to reassure Israel that the staus quo as far as Russia and Israel remains as is.


Ahhhh, there you go and show your true colours in your last paragraph. Zionist/Jewish causes of the economic crisis? I will now bow out and see how much integrity anyone else on the site has to call you what you are. Mind you, I can talk to racists all day, even have an account on Stromfront, as long as Racists are upfront with who they are and what are about. Be an adult and tell us straight up what you are, do not try to clothe it in PC
pseudo-humanitarism please.


Kind of creepy if you ask me. Save all the ZOG garbage for the end of a post. At least when other posters use words like "shyster" and "Jewboy" one already knows their agenda and here I was actually seriously responding to you.

 

[rachamim18]

Phil: I disagree, and not because of my inherent bias on the issue as an Israeli-Jew. The premise does not hold water. Oil went up not because of any fear that Israel would do anything, it rose first, because of the US bred instability to the Iraqi and adjacent Iranian and Azeri fields. Then the US currency crisis, and so on.

Israel is a tiny cog in world economics as far as other nation's propserity or lack thereof.

Look at the market rates on every day of heated reports concerning Israel, Iran, and the US. You just will not see the premise reflected (oil is one of my main investments and one I pay ALOT Of attention to).

 

[T & P]

TP: I do belong to plenty of Pro-Israel sites but your piece of advice makes no sense. Why would anyone ever wish to confine themselves to places, people, and things that simply echo their own outlook? How would one ever hope to expand one's own horizons? If you yourself do this, I feel sorry for you and will pray for you but then you are a person who believes that simply by suffering one gains some kind of wisdom, so you are going to have very singular ideas. Hope you grow though.

Who said anything about confining oneself like-minded places and people?

That's nothing to do with it. But there are plenty of forums like this one that do not resort to the foul mouthness and alleged double standards you find so distressing.

So, if it bothers you so much, why don't you find yourself another forum similar in ideology and leanings to this one, but which doesn't resort to such terrible foul language?

Simple, no?

 

[diego]

I think he's half right. Israel is the cause of far more of the world's problems than people realize. Oil prices are high because of fears that Israel will attack Iran, for example. But then one has to ask why the state of Israel exists, and the answer is found in the long history of anti-semitism. So we should really say that anti-semitism is the cause of the world's problems.

Well Phil we might also ask why so much anti-semitism (or at leeast thats what we are led to believe however thats another point) exists in the first place. Is it as the professor points out that Israel/zionism is the cause of a lot of the world's troubles? OR that people throughout history blame jews for a lot of problems such as banking and financing where the jews traditionally have held much influence and some say have used this influence to wreak havoc on the ordinary masses.

 

[diego]

"Zionist illegal occupiers." that is a non-sequitir as they say. Zionists as you know are simply Jews who believe in the right of Jews to determine their own futures in their own homeland, Israel. Arabs, including "Palestinians" are not native to this region despite being given a nation 70% larger than ours in the guise of Jordan.

non sequitir my arse!

Israel the homeland of the jews? Is that he same homeland that was stolen from the Canaanites?

Nevertheless for the sake of argument after thousands of years it was ok to suddenly head over to Palestine and steal land because you "owned" it before your great great great great ..... grandmother was born?

We have also given them Gaza, a land where Jews were living in the year 1000 BCE/BC, before the first Arab even existed in history.

Again see my previous response.

We are also GOING TO give them 93% of the so called "WB" which is my personal tribal homeland (its actual name is not "West Bank" but in English it is Judea and Samaria. Please learn your history beforemaking such non-sensical accusations.

So you are giving back some of what you previously stole well thats a start.

 

[diego]

Diego: Per your "friend," blaming Israel for all the world's problems is simply racist. If you consider such a person to be a friend it does not take a great leap of faith to picture you as a racist as well. If mistaken, sorry but that is your m.o. it seems.

In typical Israeli fashion you try to misquote by typing ALL when I clearly staed nearly.

Then you audaciously berate me simply for supporting Israel, a legal and sovereign nation that by the way, contrary to your imaginings does not opporess Arabs but actually offers Israeli-Arabs, 20% of our population, more rights than Israeli-Jews! It also offers Arabs their highest standard of living in the entire Mid-East so you and the "Professor" might wish to ponder those bits of truth in your next "discussion."

Does that include the illegally occupied territories?
And what kind of standard of living is offered to the people of these illegaly occupied teritories? My professor friend might ask.

Bin Laden hates the West not because of Israel, he attacked the US, care to notice? Know why he did so? Because the Saudi Monarchy had the nerve to allow American Armed Forces onto Saudi soil, in what is deemed Islam's holiest nations. This was considered sacrilege by Osama, et al.

Israel and Jews in general are simply secondary causes AT BEST, usually more accurately listed as 4th or 5th hand causes. Are you sure your pal is even in school?

Perhaps you might want to do some “schooling” yourself as polls from middle eastern countries constantly rate higher the grievance of muslims over Isareal/Palestine than the invasion of Iraq.
And please dont try to feed us bullshit on this forum about Bin Laden, you sound like George Bush trying to rally his troops for another murderous spree, but then again you probably have experience of that type of thing.

"Georgia and Israeli involvement.": Israel also has a similar relationship with Rumania, Eritrea, and literally 88 other nations, many of which are very tight with the Russians who by the way took pains to notify Jerusalem during their Georgian Adventure not to pay too much attention, it in no way changed Russia and Israel's "warm relations." One would have thought that your friend the "professor" would have known this very basic and widely reported fact. Curious indeed!

And your point is??? Did these countries also try to fuck with Russia with the help of Israel, knowing full well they would get their ass kicked?

You imagine, or is it your "professor" imagining that Israel is afraid of Russia? You might want to talk to some military officers instead of a professor because the IDF is number one operationally in the world. Israel would have never gotten itself involved militarily on Georgia's behalf and why would you ever imagine otherwise? The relationship is strictly economic is in hard currency for Israeli Arms, not "friendship."

Agan your point is??? IDF no.1 operationally? Yeah with the backing of America, I dont know of Israel havig fought a “proper” army such as the Russians or another major world power, merely stuffing arabs who at best are ill-equipped and trained does not prove much military capability. But perhaps you think highly of thugs who shoot young boys that fight back with rocks and point rifles at frightned old ladies.

Putin's call as you termed it (it was not Putin by the way but the Russian FM) was as I stated, to reassure Israel that the staus quo as far as Russia and Israel remains as is.

It may well have been the fm but one thing for sure was that it was no sweet talk, the Israeli’s were told to fuck off or Russian co-operation with Iran and Syria will be escalated. Perhaps you should check the facts first.
This again proves how the Israelis are quick to shit their pants when it comes to the big boys in the playground.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Well Phil we might also ask why so much anti-semitism (or at leeast thats what we are led to believe however thats another point) exists in the first place.

Because of nazi bellends like you spreading your bullshit around the internet?

 

[teqniq]

Because of nazi bellends like you spreading your bullshit around the internet?

Um. I was wondering that. Not that I was wanting to stick up for Rach. Far from it in fact.

 

[rachamim18]

TP: "Plenty of forums where Rachamim could participate and not have to deal with the uncivlised dialog and mannerisms that Rachamim claims to dislike so much. Why then stay at U75?": I have explained my reasons plenty of times.

Diego: "Homeland stolen by Jews, from Canaanites.": When a band of Canaanites wanders out of the Judean Desert, or a pand of Phillistines washes up on the shores of BatYam you MAY have a point. Unfortunately for your premise (and for Canaanites and Phillistines) the Jews are the first of existing Peoples to lay clasim to the land. Jews have been there CONTINUOUSLY for some 4500 years. Arabs on the other hand have only existed for 2700 years, and did not leave Arabia until 1300 years ago...

So you seee, you have a problem with that train of thought.

"For the sake of argument let us assume Rachamim is correct...Was it ok then, after thousands of years to steal land and hand it over to the Jews because their ancestors owned it?": Who stole land? Of groups involved in the dynamic only Arabs as a whole can be said to have stolen any land. Look at your map Diego. Trace your finger from Morocco all the way to Baluhistan, up to France and down past the Sahel. ALl of that was stolen by Arabs at one time or another.


Now look at the same map, what land was stolen by Jews? Jews BOUGHT land in what is now alternatively called Israel, Gaza, so called "WB," and Jordan. Not only did we BUY it, we bought it at vastly inflated prices and were invariably buying less than arable land.

Any land that was not bought was not taken until Statehood, and then only from people who never even owned it! Arabs did not even have private land ownership until 1834 and even then very few owned any land. Arabs owning land were gentry from other parts of the Ottoman Empire.


Local Arabs were tenant farmers, what they call "sharecroppers" in the US.Their mukhtar divided plots up, according to need, and the law of "Continued Cultivation" is what drove their largely rural economy for years. Until 1834 the Sultanate owned ALL land. After that time private ownership was allowed but was almost totally controlled by favoured subjects of the Sultan. Families, who if they were Arab, were centered in Beirut or Damascus.


So, at best you have land with no clear ownership, in SOME CASES. When a contested real estate case comes to trial, and all things are considered equal, what is usually the first thing taken into account? As someone who has fought his share of land cases, fighting one now in fact, I can easily tell you it comes down to "earliest possible claim."

"Israel giving 93% of the so called 'WB' is only Israel starting to return stolen lands...":Is "Bethlehem" (sic) or Hebron Arabic place names? Is the Cave of the Patriarchs, Ma'sa'dah or Herodium Arab landmarks? Israel IS giving that land to the Arabs but it was not stolen from them. Arabs are the thieves. They are the occupiers, the usurpers. They came and conqured by the sowrd.


Israel is pragmatic but Arabs have absolutely no legal or moral claim on the land. they have never had a nation there, they do not predate Jews there, they already have more than 600 times the land that we Jews have. Our homeland actually encompassed most of Jordan as well.

Jordan was lopped off of the original Mandate and made into a homeland for "Palestinians." Ruled by Hejaz Arabs for sure, but "Palestinian" none the less. Hence the PFLP and PLO's old maxim of "The road to Jerusalem begins in Amman." Where were whining Activists when Jordan ANNEXED the so called "West Bank." The name itself, "WEST BANK" refers to Jordaian claims on the parcel.

Let Israel, the modern incarnation of the Jewish State even talk of maintaining a presence there and people talk of thievery. What a joke! Just because they outbred us does not mean they are owed a damn thing. If we give them land they should be thanking us on their knees, it is damn sure more than their Arab brethren ever gave them. Aside from Jordan not one of the almost 30 Arab Nations has ever extended citizenship to a "Palestinian."

Jordan was ripped from our hands, we give Gaza and almost all of the "WB": with the remainder made up of our own little swatch of land and people like you continue to criticise. The thing is, you are only stating the Arab Line, they will not rest with a land bigger than ours, just as they have never rested. Indeed, the HAMAS Charter says it in black and white.

 

[rachamim18]

Diego Part II: "Diego says that Rachamim has misquoted him, thus saying Diego is not 'racist' against Israel while using the phrase 'typical Israeli fashion'.": TOO RICH. Of course the fake and hypocritical Liberals who flock to this Forum saw nothing wrong with your phrasing. "Typical Israeli?" PRay tell, what is "typical" of an "Israeli?"

"When Rachamim talks about the Israeli-Arabs who constitute a full 20% of Israeli society having full and equal rights, even EXTRA RIGHTS, is he including the so called 'occupied territories' as well?": Why would I be when "Palestinians" living in Gaza and the so called "WB" refuse Israeli citizenship and so os violently?

Were Israel to IMPOSE citizenship upon "Palestinians" I have no doubt you would categorise it as "abuse" and "oppressive."

"Rachamim should look at polls...": Sorry but Poll Science is totally worthless. Taking Israel as a good example. If I chose to conduct my poll in B'nei Brak or in Hafia will give me two totally diametrically opposed viewpoints. If I perform it according to rigid scientific protocols it is still worthless because of the subjective bias of the pollster, or polling institution (either/or) as well as the statistical impossibility of finding a true crosssection.

Bin Laden formed al Qadeh in response to the Saudi Monarchy's opening up of Saudi soil to American and Allied Forces. He views it as sacrilege.

As for the "Arab Street," since there is no "Islamic Street," most are concerned about their own day to day struggles with whatever happens to "Palestinians" being less of an issue the farter away you radiate from the epicenter of the dynamic.


Do you imagine for a second that a Waziri or Patan trbesman from Pakistan or Afghanistan gives a rat's as# what happens to a "Palestinian" when he or she is faced with American bombs or secularised and mdoernised rulers who trample all over thei traditional lifestyles?

I live in a place with 6 Islamic insurrections currently and not one gives a damn about Israel OR "Palestinians," thank G-D.

"Rachamim sounds like Bush.": I hate America and everything it stands for, sofar you are batting a big ZERO.

"Murderous sprees are something Rachamim probably is familiar with.": Well yes, I DO see enough Arab violence if that is what you mean. Of course that is NOT what you mean, you meant is another of your "typical Israeli" remarks, yes? BRAVO.

"Did any of the other countries Israel has military relations with try to fuc^ Russia like Goergia did? ": I fail to even understand any semblance of a point in your question. Why would Eritrea for example give a damn? I am afraid, if you are trying to make a point, it has gone right over my head. No doubt that will elicit another brillant aside from you but i would much rather have you explain the point.

 

[rachamim18]

Diego Part III: "Has Israel ever fought a real army?": Hahahah. I mean, one COULD say that Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen, Lebanon, and various other irregular forces do not constitute "Real armies" but coming from a person who most likely lives in the charmed world of the UK it would again, just be too rich.

We fight every day of the year. While you may feel we do not fight real armies, the bullets are just as real. We are not focused on world war type scenarios, like Russia. Although, if abunch of nearly iron aged Afghanis could beat them into submission I dare say we would have little problem.


Pray tell, what do you see as the Russian's strong point(s)? I mean, I have been studying their Ground Forces for nearly 2 decades, or did until 2007, and fail to see what you are talking about. Maybe you know something I do not. they were trash when they had a reason to fight, now? Pleeeease.

You see Syrian Republican Guards as "old ladies?" the Syrian Air Force as "rock throwers?" You really are too rich, I mean that...although maybe it is agenerational thing. I do not know your age. Maybe that has all to do with it.

"Rachamim should check his facts, the Russian FM was telling the Israelis to 'fuc% off'.": I did not realise you even spoke Russian let alone had an extension to the Kremlin. Thanks for the heads up. You are right, I would not know what was said, in my best days I was nothing but an Infantry/Para Officer and was last commanding a Checkpoint, not playing in Foreign Policy but I do know enough people to know you are far from the mark. You really imagine that with Russia still not even knowing the extent of internal snafus in its Nuke Programme it wants a piece of Israel?


Do you really think Israel with a force of 1.5 million (including all Reserve) and ALLEGEDLY more than 400 nukes would just lay down? If you say so.

 

[Grandma Death]

It must be all that smack what he done.

I'm beginning to wonder if thats actually true.

 

[rachamim18]

Grandma: Yes, because it makes so much sense to insult drug users on a HR Board. Bravo.


Actually have not done awhole lot of heroin. I have mostly used morphine, or methadone over the past 24 years. Hope this info helps you sleep better.

 

[frogwoman]

It's all a big conspiracy

How could there be a conspiracy against the state of Israel so big that even the IDF are involved?

 

[Grandma Death]

Grandma: Yes, because it makes so much sense to insult drug users on a HR Board. Bravo.

Well you clearly seem to have missed the point I was making-so either you're being thick/obtuse or your smack addled brain clearly doesn't compute.

Go back re read the point I made and this time read it slower if it helps.

 

[rachamim18]

Grandma: Nope, it is not making sense. Gee, must be all those opiates! Everyone knows how opiates make people stupid!


IF you mean that maybe I never did opiates, that is even better! You make SO much sense. I am a "wanna-be" junie! I want that "heroin chic" look. Zzzz....


Frog: Yes, we get it. Yiou are SO clever. Israel is bad, ok, 10-4 good buddy, over and out. Now can you discuss facts?

 

[Grandma Death]

Grandma: Nope, it is not making sense.

While many, including many here, rushed to judgement about the incident and even labeled it as part and parcel of an (Israeli) institutional policy on dehumanising and abusive treatment of Arabs, others (such as myself) chose to take a wait and see approach , pointed out glaring inconsistencies in the claim of both the victim AND the video tape in question, and so on.

To make it s-i-m-p-l-e for you Ive placed in bold your statement from the OP.

Try reading it slowly if you wish.

Now ask yourself this question. Would you describe these posts as not 'rushing to judge' or indeed do you really think that you took a 'wait and see' approach.....

Absolute and utter nonsense. In the video you see a soldier pointing his rifle down range, not at the ground. The Arab in question was immediately in front of him. IF he had shot downward he would have taken half the man's foot off due to the damage. Rubber Bullets in Close Quarter are very dangerous. the man is not even beleeding, aside from the rifle not pointing down towards the man's foot.

So, you see a rifle pointing down range, see a detained Arab, hear what sounds like a dubbed in shot, and then in the next frame see the detainee on the ground. Whopeeee, by golly that is nefarious!

As I foten say, can you not find actual reasons to criticise Israel? I offer my own but all you ddo is cop this weak propaganda!

.

Thirdly, if you fire a rubber bullet even indirectly within 150 yards you run the risk of death. To fire it DIRECTLY WITHIVN 25 yards death is probable. To do so from a meter or two off a foot would have blown his foot off.

Any soldier, especially in Israel knows this. You never fire above the l;egs in any circumstances from any distance. You never fire within 150 yards unless life is in danger and you do not have your real piece. To imagine that in Ni'ilin of all places, a place innundated with foireign press and Activists that a soldier, in daylight no less, would purposely fire a rubber bullet at a foot a meter or two away is just ridiculous.

If the soldier had done so accidently he would have said so because he knows that the investigation will uncover it and it is far better to pay 100 NIS as a fine than to be bounced from the army. In Israel, if you do not serve you do not work as anything more than a dishwasher if you are a Jew.

Then to imagine that a Press Officer at a press conference would state someone's guilt before even a Prelim Investigation is just foolish.

To imagine that the girl just happened to miss the actual shot with her camera is also foolish.

The highlighted sentence at the end is rubbish. I have 2 kids serving, I am alifer, I have many comrades and sources still in and I can tell you unequivocally that it is rubbish. Just the exam would tell anyone with any common sense that it is garbage. You fire a rubber bullet at a foot and the man would have lost his foot, not have a "swollen toe." I have to thank you though for the chuckles.

Rubber Bullets are not Nerf Balls. They are rubber coated metal and they kill. This si why we ricochet them. We do not firer them directly. To think a sodlier did so in Ni'ilin in daytime a meter off the foot is just ridiculous.

A simple yes or no would be suffice without your usual thousand word essay.

 

[rachamim18]

Grandma: I simply , and CORRECTLY pointed out glaring inconsistincies in the claims of both the victim AND many posters here. They DID rush to judgement and based on nothing.

As it turns out, there was a baton round fired, AT HE GROUND and noNOT at the victim's foot. The incident was NOT a crime, BUT WAS a serious error in judgement on both the officer and (more so) on the soldier who actually pulled the trigger. Crimes usually rely on intent and the investigation showed, although it is impossible to prove, that the officer was trying to scare the victim and not actually have him shot.

Cicumstantially this is clearly supported since , as always, their actions were under intense scrutiny. This took place in Na'alin (usually mis- transliterated into English as "Ni'ilin"), where for months now there have been daily Demonstrations peopled mostly with foreign Activists. Many have cameras, cell phones with cameras, and video camcorders. Knowing this intense scrutiny the officer would have had to have been mentally ill to sincerely order a subordinate to fire any type of round at a detainee.


So...There was no crime, but a serious offence none-the-less and as I had originally said, people should take in ALL facts before rushing to judgement. I actually doubted that there had even been a round fired and I was wrong but I did not make definative claims, only showed the facts as they were.


The girl did not film a shot.
At less than 150 meters baton rounds are probably fatal.
At less than a meter they definitely are invariably fatal.
IF a foot had been directly shot from 1 meter, it would be amputated if not shot off as is.
Given the scrutiny, the lack of record, and finally the physical evidence as presented by the victim's wound it seemed to not have taken place.

I use alot of words, when applicable, because of their utility and often neccessity. It is called "FACTS." Do not dispair, I will teach you.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

"It's be stupid for him to do it thus it never happened"

What fucking bollocks.

 

[rachamim18]

Who said that? I have no problem with paraphrasing (obviously) but you are not even in the same neighbourhood let alone viewpoint.

 

[Grandma Death]

Grandma: I simply , and CORRECTLY pointed out glaring inconsistincies in the claims of both the victim AND many posters here. They DID rush to judgement and based on nothing.

And those posts you made....they weren't rushing to judgement?

My god you really are that blind. Jesus wept.

 

[rachamim18]

Grabdma: "Did not Rachamim also 'rush to judgement'?": Nope. Sure did not. I did tend to think it had never even happened but I could not say definatively one way or the other.

Basically, most if not all posters were livid, denigrating all Israeli as well as Israel and when I pointed out glaring consistincies noone cared enough about integrity and honesty. As it was neither I nor anyone else in the thread was correct. The shot had been fired, NOT directly at the victim and NOT because of protocl.


There was however a blatant disregard for IDF Protocol not to mention plain old common sense.

 

[teqniq]

"It's be stupid for him to do it thus it never happened"

What fucking bollocks.

Oh no! Not the 'It Never Happened' line again.

Obvioiusly the software upgrade/rehab was not flawless.

 

[rachamim18]

Such clever insight. Glad you had the bandwidth to do it!

 

[Grandma Death]

Grabdma: "Did not Rachamim also 'rush to judgement'?": Nope. Sure did not.

Yes of course-whatever you say Rach.

 

[rachamim18]

Thanks, I feel so much better now...