IDF Has Lost Its Morality

[invisibleplanet]

hmm. which post #, bruise?
post again.

 

[bruise]

oops - it's there! ignore me

 

[invisibleplanet]

ISRAEL SHOCKED BY ARMY VIDEO
24.11.2004. 13:44:55

An Israeli army video showing a company commander repeatedly shooting a 13-year-old Palestinian girl has shocked many Israelis after being leaked to the media and broadcast on Israel’s Channel 2 station.

The leak comes after the unnamed officer, who has been suspended, was charged this week by a military court on a five-count indictment relating to the girl's death.

The charges include two counts of illegally using his weapon, and one count each of obstruction of justice, conduct unbecoming an officer, and improper use of authority.

All charges have been denied by the officer, according to a BBC news report.

The damning video footage captured on an Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) surveillance tape shows solders firing at the girl, Iman al-Hams, as she approached a military observation post near the Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip on October 5.

The company commander is then heard saying that he’s going to “confirm the kill”, an illegal practice.

According to the indictment, the officer approached the girl after she was shot and fired two rounds into her body from close range.

He then began walking away, but turned back again and “pointed his weapon downward, and shot, this time on automatic, approximately 10 bullets until he emptied his magazine,” the indictment said.

Palestinian hospital officials told investigators al-Hams had been shot at least 15 times, mostly in the upper body.

Video replay of the incident recorded the officer’s voice saying: “I carried out verification of the kill.”

The company commander is then heard issuing one final radio order.

“Anyone who moves in the area, even if it’s a three-year-old, we should kill him.”

The recording has shaken the IDF, showing personnel acting in blatant contravention of its strict regulations about the use of firearms, including a prohibition on the use of guns against non-combatants.

read remainder of article from this source: http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=99671&region=6[/

 

[kropotkin]

"The charges include two counts of illegally using his weapon, and one count each of obstruction of justice, conduct unbecoming an officer, and improper use of authority.
"

So not cold-blooded murder, then?

 

[bruise]

The recording has shaken the IDF, showing personnel acting in blatant contravention of its strict regulations about the use of firearms, including a prohibition on the use of guns against non-combatants.

The idea that they have 'strict regulations' will be news to most.

 

[scawenb]

I don't think Jew are any more racist than anyone else - in fact a lot are less racist precisely because they are Jewish.

That is not true of the many Zionists I know and especially those who are reservists for the IDF.

Funny that there are so many around, but I also met some last Saturday (though in my case it was no accident as they came looking for me - http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/manchester/2004/11/300342.html).

They speak proudly of their ability to terrrorise the Palestinian people and look forward to any excuse to kill a few. In fact one who is due to do his service this January hoped that we would go over with the ISM during his time as he could then arrange for his gun to go off at us. This in the city where Manchester student, Tom Hundall, was murdered in such an "accident" by the IDF.

And it is not just racism, it is combined with sexism, homophobia, Islamophobia, anti-semitism (against Jewish "traitors") and attacks on people with disabilities. They also love to carry their Stars and Stripes and Union Jacks flags and sing the English National Anthem.

 

[Brainaddict]

"The charges include two counts of illegally using his weapon, and one count each of obstruction of justice, conduct unbecoming an officer, and improper use of authority.
"

So not cold-blooded murder, then?

glad I'm not the only one who found that odd.

 

[cemertyone]

The radio report of the murder of the Pal child by the Isreali army commander told his troops to kill the child and all children in the immedate area even if they where only Three years of age....
Thats what your dealing with when you deal with Isreali`s....fucking state scantioned child killers......

 

[rachamim18]

Yawn...

And so a political gambit by one bureaucrat against another is now construed as widespread dissent from within...Please...You are no better equipped to offer commentary on Israeli politics then you are to offer it on "Life on Mars."

Of course this blurb is seized upon by the rabid anti Zionists who predominate here as further proof of the degenerate nature that is part and parcel of everything Israeli...Grow up.

 

[rachamim18]

The killing of the 13 year old girl as proof that Israel is evil...

A 13 year old girl walks quickly into a "No Man's Land" and is told to halt in Arabic. She begins to run full speed towards the IDF position. They clearly notice that she is carrying a backpack. Backpacks are one of the more common satchels employed by "Homicide Bombers" to carry their Semtex and caps. The IDF position again screams at her to stop running, she continues without slowing a bit...what to do?

You can condemn wholesale anything you choose but it's a cinch to do that from the comfort of your computer desk...Try doing it as a potential bomber comes hurtling at you.

The question of how many shots, and in what succession, is currently being debated. Noone on this site is remotely qualified to pass judgement here. You hear a half reported story and all of a sudden it's indicative of the inherent rithlesness of the IDF?

I have news for the military expert who stated that the use of firearms against non combatants is prohibited...The girl was not perceived as a non combatant. She was in a kill zone, running towards a position at full speed carrying a satchel and disregarded repeated requests to desist and/or identify herself...The age is irrelevant in a land where teenage girls DO blow themselves up.

 

[invisibleplanet]

And so a political gambit by one bureaucrat against another is now construed as widespread dissent from within...Please...You are no better equipped to offer commentary on Israeli politics then you are to offer it on "Life on Mars."

Of course this blurb is seized upon by the rabid anti Zionists who predominate here as further proof of the degenerate nature that is part and parcel of everything Israeli...Grow up.

Shalom

If you think that the interruption by Former Mossad deputy director, Shmuel Toledano, of a lecture being given by IDF Chief of Staff, Lt.Gen. Moshe Yaalon is a POLITICAL GAMBIT then perhaps you and I won't be able to discuss the situation in Israel-Palestine in a grown-up fashion.

Shmuel Toledano, one of Israel's Elder Statesmen, raises questions which the whole world are asking about the current nature of the IDF and it's occupation of a people in Diaspora - The Palestinians. A people whom the Chief of Staff, Yaalon refers to as THE ENEMY.

rachamim, one can be Anti-Zionist without being rabid or Anti-Judaist.
One ought to consider FROM ALL PERSPECTIVES how such objections to Zionism came about!
Do we need a degree in Jewish Theology and Mysticism to understand Zionism?

Did the Moshiach come already? It's doubtful when a body of men who are dedicated to seeking peace close their ears to a lone-voice in their chamber who questions the ever-spiralling descent physical violence and terror and physical solutions being wreaked upon both the Palestinian population and the fear in which the Israeli populace dwell daily.

The World would like to see the establishment of peace in the area known commonly by three religions as 'The Holy Land', but that will not come about when Israelis dismiss The World's criticisms or the criticisms of their own Statesmen regarding the nature of the attainment of the Israeli State, in the same brusque way that Yaalon dismissed the experienced Statesman, Shmuel Toledano, (to Israel's detriment).

You said: "this blurb is seized upon by the rabid anti Zionists who predominate here as further proof of the degenerate nature that is part and parcel of everything Israeli...Grow up"

I am grown up, rachamim, and I am less interested the spin created by Zionist labels to justify the deeds of current IDF Military Policy, than I am in effects of IDF Military Policy on all sides in this conflict.

The former (Zionist Spin) provides a zone of comfort for the Jewish inhabitants of Israel whilst denying any culpability for the terrible situation which ordinary Israeli and Palestinian are forced into enduring.

The latter (IDF Military Policy) provides the continuation of the force by which legitimised terror-tactics are meted against yet another generation of Palestinians who have, since IDF destroyed their infrastructure (sewage/sanitation/power/water/healthcare/employment) and chances of education(schools/university) for generations been forced into a permanent State of Fear which there can be no end to until their everyday services are resumed, and they can send their children to school without the fear of them being sniped at in the street by IDF who see even a 3 year old child as THE ENEMY.

Israel's leaders have the power to change the balance of the current situation in the palm of their hand, and do they choose to? Not yet, but The World lives in hope *sigh*

The Shadow of the Shoah is upon Israel, and these harsh policies can no longer be excused.

If Israel refuses to look toward the Age of Peace that is yet to come, and maintains the Diaspora affecting both Jew and Moslem, then you play into the hands of the Evangelical/Rapturist Mission which seeks to destroy Judaism. Your enemy is not the Palesinian Moslems.

It is not I who needs to GROW UP! Open your EYES!

Salaam

 

[invisibleplanet]

A 13 year old girl walks quickly into a "No Man's Land" and is told to halt in Arabic. <snipped rachamim18's version of events which isn't what actually happened> The IDF position again screams at her to stop running, she continues without slowing a bit...what to do?
<snip>
The question of how many shots, and in what succession, is currently being debated. Noone on this site is remotely qualified to pass judgement here. You hear a half reported story and all of a sudden it's indicative of the inherent rithlesness of the IDF?<snip>

You think we're half-witted? Do You feel heroic when you take heroin? Does it help to block out the crimes against humanity and the Jewish religion which you may have committed whilst serving the IDF and Uncle Sam(ael)?

"[The officer] was hot to take out terrorists and shot the girl to relieve pressure " Israeli soldier
"We saw her from a distance of 70 metres. She was fired at ... from the outpost. She fled and was wounded," a soldier said.

While Iman was lying, wounded or dead, about 70m from the Israeli guard post, the platoon commander approached her and fired two bullets from close range at her head, the soldiers said.

He then went back a second time, put his weapon on the automatic setting and - ignoring their objections on the walkie-talkie - emptied his entire magazine into her body.

"We couldn't believe what he had done. Our hearts ached for her. Just a 13-year-old girl," one soldier said. <snip>
source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3733638.stm

The affair of the `confirmed killing' carried out by Captain R. may blow up into a trial concerning the behavior of IDF soldiers in the territories in recent years. It seems the Israeli attitude of `don't ask, don't tell' is about to come to an end

The charges submitted this week at the military court of the Southern Command against Captain R., a company commander in the Givati Brigade, contains only two pages and five articles of indictment. The facts are described in dry, legal language, but the story they tell threatens to become the most significant trial in the history of the second intifada. This is because what happened on the morning of October 5, 2004, near the Girit outpost overlooking Rafah, may have ramifications that extend far beyond the Gaza sector in which it occurred.

<snip>
<snip>
<snip>

The chief of staff, Moshe Ya'alon, and other senior officers claimed this week that there is no "confirm kill" practiced in the IDF. How is this claim consistent with the testimonies by dozens of combat soldiers about the practices employed in the field, and with the testimony of the company commander himself on the military network? ("I confirmed the killing.") The explanation involves another term - "neutralizing a threat" (also referred to as "confirming neutralization"). "Confirming the killing" in this incident had two stages: At first, R. stormed out of the army post and, according to his testimony, fired two bullets at the girl from close range. Then, he headed back toward the outpost, reconsidered and returned to the girl's body, firing another round. There is some dispute over the question of where this second round hit. The prosecution argues that he aimed at the girl's body. R. changed his testimony; at first, he said he fired toward the houses in Rafah and later he claimed he fired toward the ground, near the girl's body.

The IDF trains its fighters to "neutralize threats" - when storming an enemy and as long as an ostensible threat still exists, it is permitted to fire at the enemy from close range to confirm this threat is neutralized. It is prohibited to fire at the enemy after the battle is over, if he is clearly in a helpless situation. R. and others stretch this definition to include the initial two shots, even though the girl was apparently dead already and the company commander should have seen from close range that she was a child. With regards to the second volley of gunfire, there is no disagreement that it was forbidden to fire a round at her body. The argument revolves around the facts: Did R. really aim the second round of shots at her? Incidentally, from the remarks made by Ya'alon Wednesday in an interview with Yedioth Ahronoth, it seems his criticism of R. focuses on this second round of gunfire. In any case, the military prosecution is charging the company commander with illegal use of his weapon during both stages of the shooting.
Cursory investigations

<snip>

"The real story in this case," he says, "is the fact that soldiers receive an instruction to fire at a distant figure, some of them know it is a child and no one speaks up and says a word. There was a blatantly illegal order here, which an entire company uniformly obeys, but we are all focusing only on the confirmation of the killing."

<snip><snip><snip>

Returning to the case of R., one of the articles of indictment against him contains truly explosive potential. The prosecution charges him with "exceeding authority to an extent that risked lives" because he independently defined guidelines for opening fire in a special security zone around the outpost. R., the prosecution claims, gave directives on a number of occasions to open fire against anyone penetrating this zone, and after the girl was killed he declared: "Even if it were a 3-year-old [who entered the zone - A.H.], we have to kill him." His directives indeed go beyond the official guidelines in the Gaza Strip, but like the matter of verifying a killing, there is a question of the oral tradition versus the written doctrine. Throughout much of the conflict, the actual behavior of the IDF in the Gaza Strip has not been very different from R.'s blunt definition. And because the Gaza Strip has become one big security zone - encompassing military posts, settlements, central roads and the Green Line - dozens of Palestinian civilians have been killed in situations like these.

Only the intervention, slow and hesitant, of the military prosecution has gradually reined in this shooting. One of the generals on the General Staff says the rules of engagement in the Gaza Strip "bordered on war crimes." At the beginning of the confrontation, the commander of a reserve tank division told his battalion commanders serving in the Gaza Strip to ignore the rules of engagement practiced there because they were too lenient. If the defense in R.'s case decides to call to the witness stand the former regional commanders and division commanders, the IDF can be expected to experience considerable embarrassment.

<snip>What did the senior brass really know about what was happening on the ground, and how much did some of the top officers encourage, through hints or disregard, the attitude whose unsavory results have reached a peak in the Girit incident? Ya'alon, as chief of staff, is much more sensitive to these questions than his predecessor, Shaul Mofaz. But this is not always enough. The fact is that even today, as everyone denounces R., Mofaz and others summarize Operation Days of Penitence in the northern Gaza Strip as a success because after 150 Palestinians killed and dozens of homes demolished, Hamas has stopped firing Qassam rockets. Among these casualties - and the commanders in the Gaza Strip are well aware of this - were also dozens of civilians. That is, to kill civilians is not always such a bad thing. What is this if not a double message?

<snip> Ya'alon feels a real media offensive is being waged against the IDF and him personally, stoked by political players. This is happening now, just when the chief of staff feels he should be reaping the fruits of his approach, with Arafat gone from the scene and Ya'alon's favorite Palestinian, Abu Mazen*, taking over as chairman. After all, it would seem that Abu Mazen is generating a Palestinian "searing of consciousness" by turning to the path of negotiation and rejecting terror. But instead of enjoying, Ya'alon opens the newspapers every morning and finds that columnists are blaming him for a deteriorating ethic of combat in the IDF and calling for his resignation.
Embarrassing testimonies

The chief of staff, convinced that the media are biased and blowing things out of proportion (including the recordings broadcast in "Fact") is waging a counter-campaign. His problem is that reports from the dark corners of the occupation continue to land on him: Yesterday Haaretz published pictures of a Palestinian forced to play his violin for soldiers at a checkpoint near Nablus. And there were also the horrifying pictures in Yedioth of soldiers abusing Palestinian corpses. <snip>

<snip>

<snip> One of the senior commanders in the territories, who is much more cynical than Hirsch, says that in the current conflict it will be enough for him if "we don't lose and we don't end up being despicable." It seems that for too long, many Israelis, including senior officers and civilians, wanted to believe that the war against Palestinian terror could be waged in a nearly sterile fashion - occupation with the smell of laundry detergent. But what transpired at the distant Girit outpost makes it clear again how impossible this expectation was.

One of the interesting reactions to the "Fact" broadcast was from mothers of IDF officers serving in Gaza. Some of the officers said their mothers were shocked and openly expressed concerns that this is what was also happening in their son's units. It seems the Israeli attitude of "don't' ask, don't tell" - with regard to IDF soldiers and the evils of combat in the territories during the years of confrontation - is about to come to an end.
<snip>
source: Ha'aretz - Israel News

 

[invisibleplanet]

Of all the revelations that have rocked the Israeli army over the past week, perhaps none disturbed the public so much as the video footage of soldiers forcing a Palestinian man to play his violin.
The incident was not as shocking as the recording of an Israeli officer pumping the body of a 13-year-old girl full of bullets and then saying he would have shot her even if she had been three years old. Nor was it as nauseating as the pictures in an Israeli newspaper of ultra-orthodox soldiers mocking Palestinian corpses by impaling a man's head on a pole and sticking a cigarette in his mouth.

But the matter of the violin touched on something deeper about the way Israelis see themselves, and their conflict with the Palestinians.

The violinist, Wissam Tayem, was on his way to a music lesson near Nablus when he said an Israeli officer ordered him to "play something sad" while soldiers made fun of him. After several minutes, he was told he could pass.

It may be that the soldiers wanted Tayem to prove he was indeed a musician walking to a lesson because, as a man under 30, he would not normally have been permitted through the checkpoint.

But after the incident was videotaped by Jewish women peace activists, it prompted revulsion among Israelis not normally perturbed about the treatment of Arabs.

The right wing Army Radio commentator Uri Orbach found the incident disturbingly reminiscent of Jewish musicians forced to provide background music to mass murder.

"What about Majdanek?" he asked, referring to the Nazi extermination camp.

The critics were not drawing a parallel between an Israeli roadblock and a Nazi camp. Their concern was that Jewish suffering had been diminished by the humiliation of Tayem.

Yoram Kaniuk, author of a book about a Jewish violinist forced to play for a concentration camp commander, wrote in Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper that the soldiers responsible should be put on trial "not for abusing Arabs but for disgracing the Holocaust."

"Of all the terrible things done at the roadblocks, this story is one which negates the very possibility of the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. If [the military] does not put these soldiers on trial we will have no moral right to speak of ourselves as a state that rose from the Holocaust," he wrote.

"If we allow Jewish soldiers to put an Arab violinist at a roadblock and laugh at him, we have succeeded in arriving at the lowest moral point possible," he wrote
<snip>
The incidents prompted the army to call in all commanders from the rank of lieutenant-colonel to emphasise the importance of maintaining the "purity of arms" code.

The army's critics say the real problem is not the behaviour of soldiers on the ground but the climate of impunity that emanates from the top.

While the officer responsible for killing Iman al-Hams has been charged with relatively minor offences, and the soldiers who forced the violinist to play were ticked off for being "insensitive", the only troops who were swiftly punished for violating regulations last week were some who posed naked in the snow for a photograph. They were dismissed from their unit.

source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1361552,00.html

A small number of IDF reservists and soldiers are becoming refusniks:

Courage to Refuse was founded following the publication of The Combatants Letter in 2002, by a group of 50 combat officers and soldiers. The initiators of the letter, Captain David Zonshein and Lieutenant Yaniv Itzkovits, officers in an elite unit, have served for four years in compulsory service, and another eight years as reserve soldiers, including long periods of active combat both in Lebanon and in the occupied territories.

During their reserve service in Gaza, in the midst of the second Intifada, the two realised that the missions confided to them as commanders in the IDF had in fact nothing to do with the defence of the State of Israel, but were rather intended to expand the colonies at the price of oppressing the local Palestinian population. Many of the commands issued to them were, in fact, harmful to the strategic interests of Israel.


Like all soldiers of the IDF, David and Yaniv were prepared to fight in order to protect their families back home. In January 2002 it became apparent to them that fighting in Gaza and in the West Bank would achieve the opposite result: by obeying orders they would not be protecting the lives of their dear ones. Although only young officers at the time, David and Yaniv understood what is today widely acknowledged by Israel's most decorated generals (including the current IDF Chief of Staff): The Occupation poses a threat to the security of Israel.

Finally, it was the unbearable pain and suffering inflicted upon millions of innocent civilians in the name of the "settlements" that had lead them to draft one of the most shocking documents ever written about the IDF. Over the years, their statement came to be known as The Combatant's Letter.

In the letter, the soldiers pledge their ongoing commitment to the security of Israel, but declare that they will take no part in missions intended to prolong the occupation.

To date, 632 combatants from all units of the IDF and from all sectors of the Israeli society have signed the letter and have joined Courage to Refuse. The members of the movement, often called "refuseniks", continue to do their reserve duty wherever and whenever they are summoned, but refuse to serve in the occupied territories. They are not considering their personal benefit, but rather Israel’s safety and its moral character. Over 280 Members of Courage to Refuse have in fact been court martialed and jailed for periods of up to 35 days as a result of their refusal.
It was the selflessness and determination of the members of Courage to Refuse that won a warm place for the movement in the hearts of many Israelis. Their act of self- sacrifice, their willingness to serve prison terms in order to voice their cry of distress opened the eyes of many who have been morally blinded by fears and pain of war and terrorism.

source: http://www.seruv.org.il/english/movement.asp

 

[bruise]

An heroic effort, invisibleplanet - but probably a wasted. The Zionist pov is as rigidly racist as the most dyed-in-the-wool apartheid-loving africaner. And as capable of dialogue. It's a classic case of feeling hemmed into a 'laager' of their own making, of being scared of being 'driven into the sea' while successfully driving another people into the ground (and worse). I'm sure it's difficult to live with the reality that your nation and its underpinning ideology is based on the near-genocide that's been committed in the name of Israel and/or 'the Jewish people' since 1948. That knowledge most often seems to lead to guilt, hysteria, paranoia and a racist outlook - though, of course, there are notable exceptions of people being able to rise above those mental straightjackets as there were during the fight against apartheid among whites in RSA.

 

[scawenb]

It has to be admitted that there are a number of Israeli anarchists who not only refuse to fight but do all they can with the Palestinians. There are also many anti-Zionist Jews who are absolutely opposed to Israel as was seen at Arafat funeral.

 

[cemertyone]

A 13 year old girl walks quickly into a "No Man's Land" and is told to halt in Arabic. She begins to run full speed towards the IDF position. They clearly notice that she is carrying a backpack. Backpacks are one of the more common satchels employed by "Homicide Bombers" to carry their Semtex and caps. The IDF position again screams at her to stop running, she continues without slowing a bit...what to do?



I guess the above version of events as described by Rachamim ( now seen and acknowledged even by the Isreali army as a complete fabrication of events ) is pretty systimatic of zionist mentality/ people who cannot ( or simply will not despite all evidence to the contary) see the hatred and racism inherent within their own people to other not of their kind.
These nuts like our boy RACHAMIM who have become some used to the daily diet of anti-arab hatred that they will swallow anything in the name of ZION go all quiet when the crap that he`s posted turns out to be a prue fabrication straight from the H.Q. of the I.D.F.
We will see if he makes an appearence here to say his post was full of shit.....

 

[invisibleplanet]

deleted

 

[rachamim18]

Nuts and full of shit...How clever...

I base my version of events on 17 different reports on the event. If you have proof of what you contend ,then please, show me how foolish I am and post it. As of today, the IDF is still investigating the incident, as are two seperate governmental agencies. Neither has the post mortem been made public...but maybe you have an inside track. Please enlighten us.

 

[invisibleplanet]

I base my version of events on 17 different reports on the event. If you have proof of what you contend ,then please, show me how foolish I am and post it. As of today, the IDF is still investigating the incident, as are two seperate governmental agencies. Neither has the post mortem been made public...but maybe you have an inside track. Please enlighten us.

.

IDF Doctrine on Purity of Arms, a phrase from the earliest days of Zionism
There is also a section in the IDF Doctrine on Purity of Arms, athat is still invoked in daily conversation without a trace of cynicism: "The IDF Servicemen and women will use their weapons only for the purpose of their mission, only to the necessary extent and will maintain their humanity even during combat. IDF soldiers will not use their weapons and force to harm human beings who are not combatants or prisoners of war, and will do all in their power to avoid causing harm to their lives, bodies, dignity and property."
Such statements would be welcome, were they not so clearly intended for public consumption rather than a reflection of the army's actual actions. Sadly, the army appears to spend much greater efforts telling civilians about the IDF value of human dignity than telling its soldiers

At the same time, almost no stories of Palestinian suffering were reported in the Israeli media, which was devoted almost exclusively to morale-boosting stories about "our boys in uniform." Holocaust Day, Memorial Day, and Independence Day were all celebrated with tens of thousands of troops inside Palestinian cities. The Israeli public did not question the media's spin because almost all Israeli Jews rallied around the flag. Well and truly terrorized by the constant barrage of suicide bombings, the overwhelming majority of Israelis heartily supported the invasions and uncritically swallowed IDF rhetoric.

27 IDF pilots refuse to attack territories
In a letter sent to IDF (Israeli Defense Force) Air Force Commander Dan Haaretz, 27 IDF reserve pilots (of whom 9 still do active duty) refused to take part in any further operations in the Palestinian-occupied territories. The 9 pilots who still actively serve will be required to withdraw their statements or will be removed from service.

Haaretz: Pilots refusing to serve in territories will face law
The signatories to the letter wrote they would refuse to take part in aerial attacks on populated Palestinian areas in the territories. "We, both veteran and active pilots, who have served and who still serve the state of Israel, are opposed to carrying out illegal and immoral orders to attack, of the type Israel carries out in the territories," the letter states. "We, for whom the IDF and the air force are an integral part of our being, refuse to continue to hit innocent civilians ... The continued occupation is critically harming the country's security" and moral fiber, it added. last year. The idea met with a great deal of soul-searching inside the IDF.

Captain Yonatan, speaking on behalf of the signatories, said last night: "We are all loyal citizens of the state of Israel. We have taken this step after deep thought and much soul-searching. As officers and pilots, we have been given the heavy responsibility of operating a most powerful war machine. As people who were educated with the moral code of the IDF and the state of Israel, we have decided to ... obey the order that obliges us not to carry out an order that is blatantly illegal."

 

[invisibleplanet]

I base my version of events on 17 different reports on the event. If you have proof of what you contend ,then please, show me how foolish I am and post it. As of today, the IDF is still investigating the incident, as are two seperate governmental agencies. Neither has the post mortem been made public...but maybe you have an inside track. Please enlighten us.

.

Haaretz, March 19, 2004.

Again the IDF is out to deliver a "crushing blow" to the terrorists. Again large-scale and casualty-heavy armored incursions are planned throughout the Gaza Strip, and again missiles will be launched from the air to liquidate the "senior perpetrators of terrorism." Senior sources in the Israel Defense Forces explain, with unconcealed satisfaction, that at long last "we are returning to the period before the hudna [cease-fire]." That was the happy period in which the gloves were taken off and the IDF was permitted to assassinate the leaders of Hamas. Now, following the latest wave of terrorism, which peaked with this week's attack at the port of Ashdod, the moment has come for another massive liquidation campaign, which this time won't make do with only Hamas but will aim at killing the maximum number of leaders of all the Palestinian organizations in the Gaza Strip.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Israel: Morality And The IDF
.. the fight against terror clearly poses some excruciating dilemmas. Does it justify the humiliations of the checkpoints, the closures and curfews, or the highly undemocratic but effective targeted killings of terror leaders?

Those concerns have prompted more than 620 reserve soldiers to refuse to serve in the occupied territories since 2002, including Israel Air Force pilots horrified at the policy of air strikes on so-called “ticking bombs”.
Zohar Shapira was a reserve in the elite IDF commando unit of Sayeret Matkal for 13 years until his discharge two months for refusing to serve in the territories. He believes Israel has a right and a duty to have an army - “but I want this army to become one I can believe in.”

“Morality in the army has become a slippery slope,” says the 35-year-old. “The problem is not receiving immoral orders, but getting used to them, and after some weeks or months they don’t feel immoral any more.”
He recalls an incident some 15 years ago when a fellow soldier accidentally shot and injured a Palestinian girl. The culprit was investigated, demoted and disciplined. “Then, it was a big issue. Now, it happens every day,” he says.

That’s an accusation Israel Defense Force's spokesman Jacob Dallal rebuffs vigorously, pointing to the 560 military police investigations opened since December 2000. But the figures involved do not inspire much confidence.

Out of over 70 cases where Palestinians died or were injured at the hands of Israeli soldiers, there have been only 19 indictments, with the subsequent prison sentences ranging from just months to several years.

Some cases of abuse have been embarrassingly high-profile. In February, the commander of the Hawara checkpoint in the West Bank was caught on camera repeatedly beating and humiliating Palestinians– ironically, by an IDF crew making a PR film about the army.

As Dallal points out, the officer was immediately arrested and is currently in prison awaiting trial. But the support he received from his comrades suggests his actions were far from unusual.
source: http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelidfmorality62448.html

 

[Raisin D'etre]

A chilling interview with IDF soldier on the killing of Palestinian children in 2000; he has trouble understanding at what age childhood ends and demonstrates how “[m]orality in the army has become a slippery slope. The problem is not receiving immoral orders, but getting used to them, and after some weeks or months they don’t feel immoral any more.” This soldier finds it difficult to admit that it is children that he kills and he denies all such killing by himself and other "sharp shooters". He argues that in cases where children have been shot it was a mistake but then we learn that the IDF recognise children of 12 and above as legitimate targets - these killings are therefore not mistakes.

"Because they let me. I didn't want to shoot that much, though there are a lot of soldiers who do want to shoot. At first I also wanted to shoot, and after I shot a few times I said, enough."

You haven't shot children.

"All the sharpshooters haven't shot children."

But nonetheless there are children who were hit, wounded or killed after they were hit in the head. Unless these were mistakes.

"If they were children, they were mistakes."

Do they talk about this?

"They talk to us about this a lot. They forbid us to shoot at children."

How do they say this?

"You don't shoot a child who is 12 or younger."

That is, a child of 12 or older is allowed?

"Twelve and up is allowed. He's not a child any more, he's already after his bar mitzvah. Something like that."

Thirteen is bar mitzvah age.

"Twelve and up, you're allowed to shoot. That's what they tell us."

Again: Twelve and up you're allowed to shoot children.

"Because this already doesn't look to me like a child by definition, even though in the United States a child can be 23."

Under international law, a child is defined as someone up to the age of 18.

"Up until 18 is a child?"

So, according to the IDF, it is 12?

"According to what the IDF says to its soldiers. I don't know if this is what the IDF says to the media."

And children are from 12 down. Is there no order that between 12 and 18 you shoot at the legs and not the head?

"Of course we try to see to it that he really is over 20.".................

 

[rachamim18]

Laughable...

This is proof that an army which basically, when you get down to it, consists of every able bodied adult in the country is entirely evil because of one or two supposed interviews. Well, England was involved in the transAtlantic slave trade for half a millenia but noone could point a finger at every citizen of the crown as an avowed racist who profits off of the misery of their fellow human beings, can they?

To make a statement like the one suggested by the title of this thread you need to provide proof of an established policy. you provided papers from Zionism's past but yet all you provide for your position is two or three alleged interviews.

Oh, and let's not forget the 600 odd soldiers [out of a million including Reserves, since most of the 600 are Reservists] refusing service in the so called "Territories." In Israel, everyone serves. It is not like England or America where the army is some small segment of the population. Israel is a country like any other with a hugely diverse population. 600 odd soldiers actually shows that the majority of the poulation supports Israeli policy [the opposite of your point].

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is proof that an army which basically, when you get down to it, consists of every able bodied adult in the country is entirely evil because of one or two supposed interviews. Well, England was involved in the transAtlantic slave trade for half a millenia but noone could point a finger at every citizen of the crown as an avowed racist who profits off of the misery of their fellow human beings, can they?

On a point of historical accuracy entirely unrelated to whether the IDF has lost it's morality (or had any to begin with, a debatable point for any military force), England wasn't involved in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade for "half a millennia" (or 500 years to ordinary folk). Even the Spanish, who laid first claim to "America" conducted a slave trade for around 350 of the years post-Columbus.
If you can dig up any facts that show that Britain conducted a 500 year Trans-Atlantic slave trade I can assure you that there will be historians beating a path to your door.

Alternatively, would you care to admit you were talking ill-informed bollocks?

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Why do Israeli's target children? We argue that the IDF has lost its morality when they deliberately target children. We wonder whether there could be a policy to exterminate Palestinian children.

Firstly, demographically - the Palestinian (muslim) population has an average birthrate of 3.5 to 4 % per year which is the highest in the world! By 2020, Jews may be a minority in their own state as the Palestinian population will rise to 58%, more than doubling within 20 to 30 years . Arnon Sofer worries about this and refers to the "Palestinian womb [as] a biological weapon", naturally he wants to see Palestinian childbirth reduced. Sofer also happens to be an expert on hydropolitics at Haifa University, marry this to his new title - "demographic expert" and I think we can see where he is going with his thinking and why. He speaks bluntly:

"Most of the inhabitants of Israel realize that there is only one solution in the face of our insane and suicidal neighbor - separation. You should have known this months before they did, as the grave demographic data were put on your desk many months ago. In the absence of separation, the meaning of such a majority (of Arabs - L.G.) - is the end of the Jewish state of Israel. You should remember that on the same day as the Israel Defense Forces is investing efforts and succeeding in eliminating one terrorist or another, on that very same day, as on every day of the year, within the territories of western Israel, about 400 children are being born, some of whom will become new suicide terrorists! Do you realize this?"

Sofer prides himself on being the brains behind The Wall however others vainly try to take credit for it “but the map of the fence, the sketch of which you see here, is the same map I saw during every visit Arik made here since 1978 . He told me he has been thinking about it since 1973.” Sofer says:

First of all, the fence is not built like the Berlin Wall. It's a fence that we will be guarding on either side. Instead of entering Gaza, the way we did last week, we will tell the Palestinians that if a single missile is fired over the fence, we will fire 10 in response. And women and children will be killed, and houses will be destroyed. After the fifth such incident, Palestinian mothers won't allow their husbands to shoot Kassams, because they will know what's waiting for them. Second of all, when 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it's going to be a human catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful. It's going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day.

At checkpoints and along the fencing that separate Palestinians from Israelis we read how children flying kites and playing are systematically provoked by IDF soldiers with taunts and curses until the children pick up stones to throw at which point they are killed by sharp shooters. These are called mistakes as the IDF do not target chidlren. Children are only kids until they are 12. But given Sofer's fears of 400 new "terrorists" being born every day, I think we can begin to formulate a theory as to why so many Palestinian children are being killed.

 

[rachamim18]

Raisin and Panda...

Raisin: So you are implying that the IDF targets "Palestinian" children out of a sense of trying to breech the overwhelming disparity in birthrates between the two peoples?


"We read..." Pure fantasy.

Panda: On the question of historical accuracy, quite correct you are in pointing out my mistake in claiming that England was involved in the Trans Atlantic slave trade for 500 years. The actual figure is a little closer to 450 [if you accept the fact that most people date England's involvement to the early 1600s] but hey, 50 years is 50 years...especially to the millions that suffered under the yoke of slavery. But let us for the sake of discourse, say for a moment that England had NEVER been involved in the wretched enterprise. Let us just agree that England engaged in even 100 of its many hundreds of years of exploitation in the name of colonisation. Can we agree on that? If we agree that England exploited and degraded those it considered sub human, does that fact then relegate all English as being devoid of all morality? Hardly, but then many see no problem in tossing out bigoted bon mots, as long as they are never forced to look in the mirror.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Raisin: So you are implying that the IDF targets "Palestinian" children out of a sense of trying to breech the overwhelming disparity in birthrates between the two peoples?


"We read..." Pure fantasy. .

Really? These are the words of Arnon Sofer:

You should remember that on the same day as the Israel Defense Forces is investing efforts and succeeding in eliminating one terrorist or another, on that very same day, as on every day of the year, within the territories of western Israel, about 400 children are being born, some of whom will become new suicide terrorists! Do you realize this?

we will tell the Palestinians that if a single missile is fired over the fence, we will fire 10 in response. And women and children will be killed, and houses will be destroyed.

So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day.

THen there is of course the very real shooting of children by the IDF who are targetting kids 12 and above.

More than 30 Palestinian children were killed in the first two weeks of Operation Days of Penitence in the Gaza Strip. It's no wonder that many people term such wholesale killing of children "terror." Whereas in the overall count of all the victims of the intifada the ratio is three Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed, when it comes to children the ratio is 5:1. According to B'Tselem, the human rights organization, even before the current operation in Gaza, 557 Palestinian minors (below the age of 18) were killed, compared to 110 Israeli minors.

Palestinian human rights groups speak of even higher numbers: 598 Palestinian children killed (up to age 17), according to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, and 828 killed (up to age 18) according to the Red Crescent. Take note of the ages, too. According to B'Tselem, whose data are updated until about a month ago, 42 of the children who have been killed were 10; 20 were seven; and eight were two years old when they died. The youngest victims are 13 newborn infants who died at checkpoints during birth.

Is it really possible that so many children could be killed by mistake Rachamim 18? One or two dead children and we might agree that it is a mistake but, taking the lesser number recorded by B'T selem, how can 557 dead children all be a mistake?

The IDF could be extremely trigger happy, the deaths could be due to a policy of extermination, or it could be a combination of all the above.

And there is no justifiable reason for why 13 newborns should die at checkpoints but then the Palestinian womb is seen as a "biological weapon" to be feared for the demographical timebomb it contains.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: On the question of historical accuracy, quite correct you are in pointing out my mistake in claiming that England was involved in the Trans Atlantic slave trade for 500 years. The actual figure is a little closer to 450 [if you accept the fact that most people date England's involvement to the early 1600s] but hey, 50 years is 50 years...especially to the millions that suffered under the yoke of slavery. But let us for the sake of discourse, say for a moment that England had NEVER been involved in the wretched enterprise. Let us just agree that England engaged in even 100 of its many hundreds of years of exploitation in the name of colonisation. Can we agree on that? If we agree that England exploited and degraded those it considered sub human, does that fact then relegate all English as being devoid of all morality? Hardly, but then many see no problem in tossing out bigoted bon mots, as long as they are never forced to look in the mirror.

I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge the point that Britain has acted in a disgusting manner through most of it's imperial and post-imperial history. As for your reference to bigotted bon mots, you reference to a mirror seems apt, in that you are willing to tax others for errors that you obviously can't see in yourself.

The historical fact that the British participated in the slave trade isn't an issue (a small but valid point has to be made that not just the English participated in it, but Irish, Scots and Welsh too), it's irrefutable. Your statements were about the transatlantic slave trade, which didn't become large-scale until the early 18th century (when a sort of "pre-industrial revolution" in the use of captive labour took place). I'd be the first to agree that slaves were taken before then, but not for mass use as beasts of burden, more often as expensive "fashion accessories" for the wealthy. Most histories also agree that the early slave trade was not supplied primarily by slave -raiding, as became common after agricultural settlement of the eastern seaboard and the West Indies, but through the sale of criminals in small quantities to merchants, much had been done for centuries to Arab slavers.

So if you're referring to a slave trade rather than slavery as an institution, then your little historical peroration about a 450 year length set out above becomes somewhat threadbare, does it not?

If you're that cavalier about easily verifiable facts, then why should any credence be given to anything you have to say?

(Awaits being told by rachamim18 that all standard histories are inaccurate)

 

[rachamim18]

Rasin and Panda [doesn't want to keep Panda in suspense]

Rasin: Sofer speaks only for himself. It is exceedingly easy to offer blurbs by assorted media pundits. In fact I can offer at least 10 for every one you post but it is an exercise in futility. FACTS. Instead of offering numbers by a politically motivated group like B'tzelem why not offer corroborating figures from uninvolved sources?

Panda: "Cavalier about facts." When you start adding parameters of your choice you can argue anything about anything. "They only bought criminals [Ooooh, so much more palatable!]" or "Mass shipments only fit the definition [Says who?]." The fact of the matter is that the English did engage in slavery for the time stated. The fact that Welsh or Scottish or even Portugese did also is of no consequence. The British didn't invent the concept but certainly utilized it...Hmmm...

 

[kropotkin]

This is proof that an army which basically, when you get down to it, consists of every able bodied adult in the country is entirely evil because of one or two supposed interviews.

If the army essentially consists of every able bodies adult in the country, why is it wrong for those people to be attacked off-duty?