IDF Has Lost Its Morality

[ViolentPanda]

Aye, they're like some sort of Zionist tag team.

Perhaps even members of one of those mythical "monothought cliques" the right likes whining about?

 

[tangentlama]

*bump - discussion thread for discussing IDF resurrected in response to over-thready-dissipation.

 

[moono]

I hope that the extremism supporters don't succeed in closing any more criticisms of immoral IOF actions. It's all too easy for them to smokescreen bits of Palestinian children and pregnant women flying about with a few insulting and personal posts hoping for a curtailment.

Close down the posters. Leave the threads open.

 

[rachamim18]

Wow, I was reading all the garbage here. Makes me rethink coming back. Sad. Such a great tool and look how it is wasted. Guessing, I would wager that 90 percent of the posting in this forum is personality nonsense.

 

[tangentlama]

I read through all the garbage too.

I agree, this forum is a great tool, and there are some who are wasting it.

There's some value to having related discussion (eg. on IDF) in one thread - rather than six sensational titles that most urbanites can't bring themselves to post in, due to how they perceive the OP's bias/slant/hostile language (and so on), also allow some room for other prominent issues affecting the Middle East, such as ENVIRONMENT and GENDER POLITICS (also important to me!).

Cup of Chai and some Halava, anyone?

 

[moono]

Some like to politely pussyfoot around the corpses, some need to vent. You'd have to be slightly odd to suggest one group or t'other doesn't post.

 

[moono]

Ahmed was visiting his sister in Gaza and the family had settled down for the evening meal when they were hit by the missile. A pool of blood marked the floor in their kitchen.

Doctors tried to save the woman's seven-month-old fetus, but failed, they said.

A statement from Abbas' office harshly condemned the Israeli attacks.

"The increased frequency of women and children falling victims to Israeli missiles, in an age of very precise electronic warfare, indicates a deliberate intention on the Israeli part to target every Palestinian and to cause maximum human, physical, and psychological damage," it said.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/730163.html

Cup of Chai and some Halava, anyone?

Not right now, thank you.

 

[rachamim18]

Tangent: My dad used to be a fiend for halvah [yikes]. I have a thing against eggs. The joya jelly rings are ok.

Moono: Precise warfare? No such thing per se. Even with what precison exists,m they have not come close to manufacturing gender or age specific sensors [sic]. What a croc.

I look forward to your graphic accounts of the Israeli women and children murdered by illegal militants [as opposed to sovereign armies of legal entities].

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

Moono: Precise warfare? No such thing per se. Even with what precison exists,m they have not come close to manufacturing gender or age specific sensors

Yet they still fire them into crowded Palestinian streets. Speaks volumes, old boy.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: All Gazan streets are crowded.

 

[moono]

The most densely populated piece of ground on earth, old chap. Israeli withdrawal to the pre-1967 borders is a necessity, practically and legally.

 

[rachamim18]

Not legally, but otherwise I agree.

 

[moono]

YES , LEGALLY, even by the judgement of the Israeli High Court. Palestine is under 'belligerent occupation', remember ?

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: "Illegality." Refresh my memory, tell me where the Israeli Supreme Court ruled this?

 

[moono]

You don't recall the Israeli High Court ruling that Gaza and the West Bank were illegally occupied ? Lol.

Even under Israel's own Constitution, the 'Territories' are occupied illegally. It's a 'beligerent occupation' in the words of the Israeli High Court. You don't recall that ? Laugh.

Wait a minute, wasn't it you who denied that the occupation was illegal ? I seem to remember telling you that you were talking rectumese at the time.

 

[tangentlama]

it ruled that they were "not part of Israel"

Israeli Supreme Court Rules that the West Bank and Gaza “are not part of Israel”
June 14, 2005

The Israeli Supreme Court ruled on Thursday that the planned Israeli pullout from the Gaza Strip is constitutional and does not
violate the rights of Israeli citizens living on settlements there. Despite the ruling, Israeli opposition to the planned pullout continues to grow, and further demonstrations are expected in both the Gaza Strip and the northern West Bank.

But the crucial issue at hand, which has failed to draw the attention of either the media or the international community, is the admission by the Court that forms the basis of the ruling – namely that the West Bank and Gaza are under “belligerent occupation” and do not fall under Israeli law; that “Judea and Samaria [the West Bank] and the Gaza area are lands seized during warfare, and are not part of Israel.”

 

[moono]

The step to 'illegally occupied ' is very short;

Such an admission on the part of the Israeli high court is nothing short of monumental, and sets a legal precedent for the handling of future cases involving the interests of the settlers in the occupied territories.

Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, the statement that neither the West Bank nor Gaza is “part of Israel” underlines and reinforces the illegality of the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories, not only under international law, but also under Israel’s own constitution.

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/new_web/june_05_archive.htm

A very userful ruling;

The government maintains a "blacklist" of Palestinians who left the territories during the 1967 Six Day War, and have since been barred from coming back, lest they sue for the return of their land, the Defense Ministry admitted for the first time Tuesday.


In a legal opinion drafted in October 2003, the legal adviser for Judea and Samaria warned that the use of these lands was illegal, and suggested that the government find a way to resolve the problem, since if it ended up in court, "it would not benefit the state in any way, and would cause a chain reaction that would endanger the entire fabric of the relevant settlements' lan."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/734705.html

 

[rachamim18]

Moomo/Tangent:" The payoff is in the words. The English translation is vry accurate. It never stated that Israel was a "belligerant occupier." It did however state that Israel is only doing what it said it was, militarily administering until suich time as a secure peace can be achieved.

Moono: Your last post is reaching again. You can INTERRET the high Court's ruling any way you wish but in the ned it did not call the adminisatration illegal. It reirterared widely known governmental policy. Furthermore, under the "Realignment" platform, Israel is disenagaging from the "West Bank" within 18 months. Then what will you complain about?

 

[moono]

'Realignment'

is it ? Lol. Israel isn't doing anything which will be acceptable to the international community without negotiations with the Palestinians. You know it, I know it, Bush knows it, Kofi Annan knows it, the Zionist government knows it and, more importantly, so does every Palestinian throughout Gaza, the West Bank and the millions in the diaspora.

You ought to realise that the days of uncontested Zionist propaganda are gone. Hasbara=lies.

 

[tangentlama]

Tangent:" The payoff is in the words. The English translation is vry accurate. It never stated that Israel was a "belligerant occupier." It did however state that Israel is only doing what it said it was, militarily administering until suich time as a secure peace can be achieved.

The Israeli Supreme Court stated clearly that the West Bank and Gaza are under “belligerent occupation” and do not fall under Israeli law; that “Judea and Samaria [the West Bank] and the Gaza area are lands seized during warfare, and are not part of Israel.”

This was back in March 2005, before the disengagement from the Gaza Strip, and also served to quosh the protests of various US charity-funded settlers. It was through these settlers that encouragement to resist the disengagement plan was pushed, and arms and funds were offered to those willing to make an armed stand against the Israeli Govt/IDF.

Recently, we've heard news of how the Katif Bloc evacuees are finding it so hard to re-settle, of how the kids are failing their exams, and feeling despairing thoughts of suicide at the enormous changes wrought in their lives. This is a taste of what two generations of Palestinian kids have been, and are going through. (dya know of any useful reports on such pyschological effects of conflict on Palestinian youth - PTSD etc, moono? )

The lives brightest and best of both Israel and Palestine are blighted by conflict and uncertainty. No wonder they're feeling suicidal. This isn't right, and bombing the shit out of Gaza isn't doing anything to lessen those feelings. It's only making it worse. Collective Punishment has to stop.

What about the two sons of the Palestinian Parliamentarian who were kidnapped by IDF, before Gilad Shalit was 'captured' by Palestinian Militia? What news of them?

 

[moono]

This is a taste of what two generations of Palestinian kids have been, and are going through. (dya know of any useful reports on such pyschological effects of conflict on Palestinian youth - PTSD etc, moono? )

No. I'm angry enough already.

 

[tangentlama]

Tangent: My dad used to be a fiend for halvah [yikes]. I have a thing against eggs. The joya jelly rings are ok.

This guy looks just like my friend, Michael.
He says:

“Who is the enemy?” asks Avichai Sharon. “I never saw the enemy. I saw society. I was three years fighting society in Palestinian cities.”​

Why is an IDF General allowed to appropriate land? It's not defence, since it has a commercial/demographic purpose. That is corruption, yes? Do you consider it to be corruption?

 

[rachamim18]

Tangent: Please provide the relevant passage [annotated, etc] where the High Court said that Israel was in "belligerent occupation" of the "Territories." Thanks in advance. I wont offer further rebuttal until the text is provided.


Here is a thought: Instead of preaching about how collective punishment is being heaped upon the poor Arabs of Gaza. You might want to consider what life is like for the Sraelis who endurebetween 6 and 45 rickets and missiles a day, not including morta shlles. all of which I might add or unaimed. A 70 pound iron tube filled with propellant and powder is not a slight bother when it lands squarely on your head, or throught your roof.

Israel LEFT GAZA almost a year ago. From the day it left it has endured an UNCEASING barrage of these devices as well as other forms of terrorist attacvk. Everyone here whines out "occupation." Guess what? Israel left!!! Instead of capitalising on this and beginning to build their independant nation they pissed it away with wanton gratuitous violence.


What of the two sons of PA Assemblymen? Guess what? they were militants with arrest warrants on their heads fro crimes against Israel.

"Breaking the Silence." there have always been opposition movements in every society since societies began. It always shocks momt non-Jews when they hear or see of Jews not following the herd. This is human nature and Jews are not exempt. By the same token, those dissident voices mean nothing. they feel that way? Great! Leave. Noone needs those leeches anyway. Recording injustices? They haven't uncovered anything and waste everyone's time with mundane respoorts on how some 17 old inductee is not polite enough to an Arab who spits in his face. Sureeeeeee.....Real worthwhile work.

"Appropriation of land." If land is being used for criminal purposes, that must be rectified one way or another. Sometimes it is just several meters of trees, soemtimes and entire building. I believe it ia skin to what they call "Emminent Domain" in the West. nothing nefarious at all.

 

[moono]

Rachamim;

Guess what? they were militants with arrest warrants on their heads fro crimes against Israel.

Probably false charges or perhaps even convicted in absentia by some kangaroo court . The pattern is plain, arrest, imprison, misappropriate, ethnically cleanse.

 

[tangentlama]

Tangent: Please provide the relevant passage [annotated, etc] where the High Court said that Israel was in "belligerent occupation" of the "Territories." Thanks in advance. I wont offer further rebuttal until the text is provided.

From ASIL (American Society for International Law):

On June 30, 2004, the Israeli High Court delivered its decision in HCJ 2056/04 Beit Sourik v. Israel, ordering the State of Israel and its military commanders to modify the route of the wall/barrier that is being constructed in the Occupied West Bank. In its 52-page landmark decision, the High Court recognized that according to the laws of belligerent occupation, the Occupant may confiscate private property and use public property to build the wall for military purposes. However, the Court ruled that the Occupant may not build the wall based on political grounds, or to annex territories or fix a border. The Court cited several cases in which it has ruled that only military necessities may justify the taking of property. In the Duikat case (HCJ 390/79 Duikat v. Israel) the High Court held that according to the laws of belligerent occupation, Israel may not build settlements in the Occupied Territories for political or ideological purposes. Ever since, Israel has said that it is building the settlements for military purposes.

Therefore, Israel's High Court has admitted that it's military is in beligerant occupation of Palestinian Territories - this is every settler home now, since they are built for 'military purposes'

And news today:

A top Israeli general has been sacked by the army chief for criticising the way the military conducted the recent war in Lebanon in media interviews.

Maj Gen Yiftah Ron-Tal was fired by Lt Gen Dan Halutz for breaching the ban on Israeli troops making public comments on political and diplomatic issues.

Gen Ron-Tal said Gen Halutz must "accept responsibility" for what he said was the "failure" of the war.

He also criticised Israel's unilateral pull-out from Gaza last year.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5408724.stm

 

[Luther Blissett]

One Blow to the Brain

A bit late in reporting this:

According to official military regulations, which were reported in the Hebrew version of Haaretz today, soldiers are not allowed to fire from a distance closer than 40 meters. They are instructed not to fire at vital areas of the body and only to fire when they are in immediate danger. Each week during demonstrations in Bil’in, many non-violent demonstrators are injured in the head, neck and chest.

The Israeli who was shot in the head and a Danish woman beaten with a gun on Friday are the most serious injuries the army has caused since Ramzi Yassin, who was shot in the head with a plastic-coated steel bullet. Ramzi, from Bil’in, was handing out water during a demonstration in Bil’in on July 8th 2005, when he was shot in the side of the head. The bullet caused severe bleeding of his brain and he was left unconscious for 7 days and with permanent brain damage. Haitham al Khateeb of Bil’in, Yonathan Pollack, an Israeli, BJ from Denmark, and Phil of Austrailia were hospitalized at different times all for rubber bullets injuries to their heads at close range at Bil’in demonstrations, except for Haitham who was hit by a tear gas canister fired at his head.

Lymor, who was shot on Friday, is currently in a stable condition at Tel Hashomer hospital in Tel Aviv. It took the ambulances about an hour to get from the site where he was shot to the hospital. He was taken in for immediate surgery which took 3 hours, and a rubber bullet as well as shards of bone and damaged brain tissue were removed from his head and an internal heomorage was stopped. Before the surgery he was totally clear and aware even though he was in a lot of pain. After the surgery he was moving his arms and legs while he was under sedation. He was taken off sedation around 7pm yesterday evening. He can move his limbs and can talk but is having trouble with his vision.

Rina, from Denmark, is also currently in the hospital in Hebron, suffering from severe concussion caused by an Israeli soldier beating her with his gun. She is stable, but is still having trouble walking on her own.

View video by download here: http://content.mishtara.org/bilin-11-8-06.wmv
Or view immediately here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Go-V7iCP22U

Article in Ha'aretz:

On Friday, August 11th, when the end of the Lebanon War was on the horizon, after several weeks in which no more than token protests had taken place in Bil'in, the weekly demonstration against the separation fence began. Border Police troops, who were waiting, threw stun grenades and fired rubber-coated metal bullets at the demonstrators, even before they left the village to head toward the fence. Limor Goldstein, 28, was wounded in the head by gunfire from a Border Police officer. As documented on the video that was being shot at the time there, two hours elapsed from the time he was injured until he was brought by ambulance to the emergency room at Sheba Medical Center at Tel Hashomer.

Limor Goldstein, a lawyer who was born in Germany and who holds permanent residency in Israel, was wounded by a rubber-coated metal bullet that penetrated his brain. Goldstein, who speaks eight languages, says he is not a member of any of the protesting organizations.

"I have no problem cooperating with them and I admire their persistent action, but I don't belong to any political organization. I prefer to remain autonomous," he says now.

Read the rest of the horrendous report which by all accounts, looks like the Military hoped he would die before he got to hospital.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/760139.html

 

[Luther Blissett]

Shooting without a target

During the final days of the war, when it became clear that the Israel Defense Forces had no solution to the ongoing launchings of Katyusha rockets, a decision was made to "flood" the area with cluster bombs, delivered by artillery shells and rockets. This was non-target specific shooting, based on the assumption that the bomblets would cover a large area, possibly destroy Hezbollah rocket launchers and cause as many casualties as possible among its fighters.

A soldier who fired 155mm artillery shells delivering cluster bombs told Haaretz that he was ordered to "flood" the area with these bombs, without having a specific target. A commander of a Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) told Haaretz that his order was to "saturate the area." These statements were published in stories by Meron Rapoport on September 8 and 12. More than a million cluster bomblets were dropped in southern Lebanon. Each M-26 rocket fired by an MLRS contains 644 cluster bomblets, capable of covering an area the size of a football field.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/762427.html

 

[moono]

The IOF brings to mind a scorpion stinging itself to death.