IDF Has Lost Its Morality

[ViolentPanda]

thats nice. sorry to hear you had such a terrible experience talking to jews.

if you want to rehash all the mindless, hackneyed arafat propaganda about Israel and its armed forces, go ahead. like ive said, go and see for yourself, until then, dont talk about something you have no understanding of.

Didn't take you long to switch back into rabid mode, did it?

 

[bruise]

until then, dont talk about something you have no understanding of.

do you fancy responding to ungrateful's post?

 

[cemertyone]

cemetar one, good for you. im sure youll have a good time when you visit.

I`m not going there to "have a good time" tirbal ( i can do that well enough in Brixton thank you very much)...i`m going there to see things with my own eyes and maybe to challenge some of my own pre-concieved ideas about the place.....
I note however, that even when some of the posters here (who are actually jewish themselves) make comments you dont agree with even they get labelled with the anti-semetic stuff that you throw around when ever any one actually has the audacity to critise the actions of the Isreali government.....

 

[pcanning]

of course Israel has a problem with racism

"im glad we've achieved a stage of progress, where you can judge an entire nation's army by 3 seemingly bad apples." - tribal

of course Israel has a problem with racism and I'm slightly amazed to find this 'bad apples' line still being pushed after being away from the boards for quite a while.

I recently dug this stuff up for a friend in Oz who was being attacked for making this point:

(Prof. Adir Cohen 'An Ugly Face in the Mirror: National Stereotypes in
Hebrew Children's Literature', Tel-Aviv: Reshafim, 2002)
Survey taken of a group of 4th to 6th grade Jewish students at a school in
Haifa - 75% described the "Arab" as a murderer, one who kidnaps children, a
criminal and a terrorist. 90% believed that Palestinians have no rights
whatsoever to the land in Israel or Palestine. Survey of 1,700 Israeli
children's books published after 1967. 520 of the books contained
humiliating, negative descriptions of Palestinians. 66% refer to Arabs as
violent; 52% as evil; 37% as liars; 31% as greedy; 28% as two-faced; 27% as traitors, etc. The following descriptions used to dehumanize Arabs: Murderer 21 times; snake, 6 times; dirty, 9 times; vicious animal, 17 times;
bloodthirsty, 21 times; warmonger, 17 times; killer, 13 times; believer in
myths, 9 times; and a camel's hump, 2 times.

National Security Studies Centre at the University of Haifa attitudes poll,
2004. 64% believe that their government should "encourage" Israeli Arabs to
emigrate from Israel (so-called "transfer"). 45.3 per cent support revoking
Israeli Arabs' right to vote and hold political office. 25% said that they
would consider voting for a banned fascist party like Kach.

Yaffe Centre for Strategic Studies, 2002. 46% supported the "transfer" of
Arabs from the occupied territories and 31% supported applying the policy to
Arab Israelis.

Plus there's the distinctions in law between jews and non-jews. the evidence of second class status for non-jewish israelis is overwhelming.

in any other state this would be understood for what it is and condemned. israel is some sort of special case, apparently.

in the UK and a lot of Europe this sort of discrimination is being dealt with, both in law and in practice by government's. can you imagine a Stephen lawrence type-inquiry in Israel? we are not perfect (the treatment of asylum seekers) but we know about such issues as 'institutionalised racism' and discuss it - the most significant point here - and blatant racism, of the sort practiced in Israel, as detailed above, is not tolerated by anyone - the church, the media, even the right. this isn't a nationalist point. this is about an example to the world about how deeply-ingrained racism can begun to be dealt with.

I am consistently reminded of the voices of the apartheid system's defenders in those who speak of Israel's special case and how Israel's people are 'bound' to react to terrorism with the level of racism and discrimination present.

there has been plenty of 'islamaphobia' since 9-11 in the UK and Irish people suffered during the IRA Uk bombing campaigns - but the difference is how we have dealt with this.

I don't see either the Israeli government or any significant political forces taking this on. indeed even the very idea of running a campaign against 'islamaphobia' in israel sounds ridiculous.

I would recommend a Jewish opinion on this - "We are allowed to be
racists": (If it were the reverse, Gideon Levy Ha'aretz, July 18, 2004 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/452564.html)

 

[kropotkin]

thats nice. sorry to hear you had such a terrible experience talking to jews.

if you want to rehash all the mindless, hackneyed arafat propaganda about Israel and its armed forces, go ahead. like ive said, go and see for yourself, until then, dont talk about something you have no understanding of.

cemetar one, good for you. im sure youll have a good time when you visit.

tribal- I am a jew you idiot, so my opinions are based on a lifetime of discussion and debate.

And you are a prime example here. I have never seen you refer to arabs with anything approaching humanity and respect. They are characterised as terrorists and violent misoginists in practically every post you make.

 

[invisibleplanet]

tribal- I am a jew you idiot

tribal. how come you didn't see that?
do u take your religion seriously at all?
*scratches head*

 

[tribal]

tribal- I am a jew you idiot, so my opinions are based on a lifetime of discussion and debate.

And you are a prime example here. I have never seen you refer to arabs with anything approaching humanity and respect. They are characterised as terrorists and violent misoginists in practically every post you make.

im not sure what discussion and with whom youve had debates, but the jews and the jewish community that i know, is not at all racist. if there are some segments of israeli population that harbor malcontent views on arabs, that is unfortunately understandable, looking at the vicious level of anti semitism in arab societies of egypt, syria and iran. the problem with people like you is that you concentrate on israel and its policies looking only through one single context, you convieniently forget the kind of environment israelis live in. you also forget the amount of hate israel's neighbors harbor in their societies, where if you go in egypt or syria, a map of the middle east does not feature Israel anywhere, nor is co-existence taught to children or the society in general. you want to talk about the core issue here. it isnt any settlements, it isnt any 'racist' israelis. it is the 50-year long refusal by arab states to even acknowledge the idea that there can be such a thing as a jewish state. talk about racism. what do you know about racism?

oh and where have i referred to 'arabs' in a bad light? are you offended by that picture of arafat?

 

[kropotkin]

and i think there we have it.

you want to talk about the core issue here. it isnt any settlements, it isnt any 'racist' israelis.

Well, the rest of the world sees things differently. To the rest of us, the core issue is the theft of land, expulsion of the population, and fifty years of racial oppression.

And I am hardly suprised that you cannot see the racism around you.

 

[invisibleplanet]

what do you know about racism?

oh and where have i referred to 'arabs' in a bad light? are you offended by that picture of arafat?

i refer you to this quote by Moshe Ya'alon: "Palestinians are like a cancer. There are all sorts of solutions to cancerous manifestations. For the time being, I am applying chemotherapy."
source: adbusters #50 : http://www.invisibleplanet.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/forums/adbusters-nov-dec-2003.gif

 

[invisibleplanet]

and i think there we have it.


Well, the rest of the world sees things differently. To the rest of us, the core issue is the theft of land, expulsion of the population, and fifty years of racial oppression.

And I am hardly suprised that you cannot see the racism around you.

this article from deutsche welle about a demonstration in Feb 2004 at the former site of the Berlin Wall which protested against the security fence in Israel. Among the organizers were representatives of a new Jewish group that criticizes Israeli policy.

check out 'European Jews for a Just Peace' on google.
.

 

[invisibleplanet]

You might be interested in this piece of news relating to the IDF and people who have served and who refuse to serve in the IDF. I consider this news to be 'in the making'.

REFUSING TO ENLIST: NOT A PRIVATE MATTER

The final court session in the military trial of draft resisters Noam Bahat, Adam Maor, Haggai Matar, Shimri Zameret and Matan Kaminer will be held next Tuesday, 11.11. In this session we'll hear the summation speech of the five's lawyer, Dr. Dov Khenin. In the last session we heard that of the prosecutor, Captain Yaron Kostelitz.
The five refuse to enlist in light of the brutal policy of occupation and oppression which the IDF represents and implements. Their refusal is not a private act. It is indeed a conscientious objection - but without substantial public support, its meaning loses much of its power. Therefore, we have decided to hold a big demonstration, just before the court session starts, calling out loud:WE ALL REFUSE TO BE PRISONERS OF THE OCCUPATION
A wide public support of the occupation resisters voices a clear declaration against the oppression of the Palestinian people, suffering for years under Israeli rule, with no end in sight.
Please join us in this demonstration. Together we'll call for the elimination of walls, fences and bars - and for acknowledging the rights of those whose conscience does not let them help evil to prevail.
The military court, Shivtey-Issrael St. corner of 91 Yefet St., Tuesday 11.11, 08:30.
source: Coalition of Women for Peace: http://www.coalitionofwomen4peace.org/

an ex-israeli soldier demostrates and speaks against the Occupation in this next quote from an online version of :

`We want the world to know that there are Jews who don't agree with Sharon and Bush, and who see that we must give Palestinians their own land and their own rights or there will never be peace,'' said Jacob Mandelsberg of the Jewish Voice for Peace, the group that protested in San Francisco on Wednesday. Mandelsberg, who said he once served in the Israeli army, and others contend the stability of Israel is dependent on giving Palestinians their own land without threat of occupation.
source: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/3041683.htm

The demonstrators had attempted to deliver a letter to Consul General Yossi Amrani, according to Penny Rosenwasser, a protester who was reached on the 21st floor by cell phone. In the letter, they demanded that the consul general write a statement calling for an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

"I declined to meet with them because I don't think it's my role to encourage civil disobedience and breaking the law," said Amrani, as they sat outside his office. "They basically trespassed Israeli sovereign territory and did not ask for a meeting. I don't think I need to cooperate with that."

Amrani said that he meets with people of many differing viewpoints, and had they gone through the correct channels to set up a meeting, he would have met with them

The group, both men and women ranging from their 20s to 60s, included both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews, and one Israeli with dual citizenship who had served in the Israel Defense Force. The group represented thousands of Jews locally and around the world who oppose the occupation
source: jewish bulletin of northern california: http://www.jewishsf.com/bk020412/sf14.shtml

check the General's 'reasoning' for not meeting with the Jewish Voice for Peace Protestors.

As a companion to the jewishvoice4peace.org, see also http://www.tikkun.org/

 

[pcanning]

racism is racism. full stop.

if there are some segments of israeli population that harbor malcontent views on arabs, that is unfortunately understandable

there is no 'if'. you then go on to blame everyone else for the problem but Israelis. *that is the problem for sympathetic westerners. people like myself who support humanity, who assuredly do not support violence, religious fanatics or racism anywhere.

you always (these are the same arguments) blame someone else rather than look at it in and of itself as a bad thing and a problem for jewish people. why does it need a context? we know someone else will be worse. someone always is. so what?

faced with a jewish critique of racism, you don't see this as a contribution - you just ignore it.

those of us with experience in anti-racist movements (mine is with anti-facism in britain, anti-apartheid in the 80s and racism against Aborigines in Australia) just hear echoes from the past. we recognise the causes of racism all too well. your experience is not unique. there are always 'reasons' for it. you could transplant you comments to a thousand situations in the past or the present for that matter. many have been down the special road you claim. shot at, bombed - even attempted genocide has not caused the level of racism against white Australians from black which the studies I pointed to found.

excuses, excuses. israel is not a special case. nowhere is. just stop making them and recognise what other jewish people say! deal with the racism and you will deal with one of the largest blocks towards peace - and you'll begin to deal with European frustration at Israeli (not the government but Israeli) attitudes.

 

[commodityfetish]

hey tribal, this is your finest performance since the thread about the (fabricated) paris train attack. keep up the good work fella, you're winning more hearts and minds all the time!

 

[invisibleplanet]

if there are some segments of israeli population that harbor malcontent views on arabs, that is unfortunately understandable, looking at the vicious level of anti semitism in arab societies of egypt, syria and iran. the problem with people like you is that you concentrate on israel and its policies looking only through one single context, you convieniently forget the kind of environment israelis live in. you also forget the amount of hate israel's neighbors harbor in their societies, where if you go in egypt or syria, a map of the middle east does not feature Israel anywhere, nor is co-existence taught to children or the society in general. you want to talk about the core issue here. it isnt any settlements, it isnt any 'racist' israelis. it is the 50-year long refusal by arab states to even acknowledge the idea that there can be such a thing as a jewish state. talk about racism. what do you know about racism?

oh and where have i referred to 'arabs' in a bad light? are you offended by that picture of arafat?

Memri might, of course, argue that it is seeking to encourage moderation by highlighting the blatant examples of intolerance and extremism. But if so, one would expect it - for the sake of non-partisanship - t o publicise extremist articles in the Hebrew media too.

Although Memri claims that it does provide translations from Hebrew media, I can't recall receiving any.
Evidence from Memri's website also casts doubt on its non-partisan status. Besides supporting liberal democracy, civil society, and the free market, the institute also emphasises "the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel".

That is what its website used to say, but the words about Zionism have now been deleted. The original page, however, can still be found in internet archives.

The reason for Memri's air of secrecy becomes clearer when we look at the people behind it. The co-founder and president of Memri, and the registered owner of its website, is an Israeli called Yigal Carmon.

Mr - or rather, Colonel - Carmon spent 22 years in Israeli military intelligence and later served as counter-terrorism adviser to two Israeli prime ministers, Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin.

(source: Selective Memri (Brian Whitaker investigates whether the 'independent' media institute that translates the Arabic newspapers is quite what it seems Monday August 12, 2002 )

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html

 

[tribal]

there is no 'if'. you then go on to blame everyone else for the problem but Israelis. *that is the problem for sympathetic westerners. people like myself who support humanity, who assuredly do not support violence, religious fanatics or racism anywhere.

you always (these are the same arguments) blame someone else rather than look at it in and of itself as a bad thing and a problem for jewish people. why does it need a context? we know someone else will be worse. someone always is. so what?

faced with a jewish critique of racism, you don't see this as a contribution - you just ignore it.

those of us with experience in anti-racist movements (mine is with anti-facism in britain, anti-apartheid in the 80s and racism against Aborigines in Australia) just hear echoes from the past. we recognise the causes of racism all too well. your experience is not unique. there are always 'reasons' for it. you could transplant you comments to a thousand situations in the past or the present for that matter. many have been down the special road you claim. shot at, bombed - even attempted genocide has not caused the level of racism against white Australians from black which the studies I pointed to found.

excuses, excuses. israel is not a special case. nowhere is. just stop making them and recognise what other jewish people say! deal with the racism and you will deal with one of the largest blocks towards peace - and you'll begin to deal with European frustration at Israeli (not the government but Israeli) attitudes.

im not excusing anyone. read what i wrote again. does israel have racist people (i.e. religious settlers)? yes it does. is it a problem? yes it is. but theres an equally, if not a larger problem of arab racism as well, which none of you seem to acknoweldge. if you accuse me of ignoring or simply looking away at jewish racism, then you are equally as guilty of ignoring the viciousness of anti-semitism in the arab world. you see israel in a single prism of light, forgetting that Israel has a 20% arab population, the only place in the middle east where gays have their own parade down main street, and where Arab MKs routinely speak out against the Israel in the Knesset, but are not arrested unlike other Arab countries.

The articles of refuseniks that you posted constitute a tiny percentage of Israelis serving in the army. I've lived there for 6 months and talked to many soldiers and all were proud of serving and stopping terrorists, be it in Tel Aviv or in Gaza.

people like myself who support humanity, who assuredly do not support violence, religious fanatics or racism anywhere.

support humanity? what does that mean? you dont seem to support violence, religious fanaticism or racism on selective basis

do you know what is taught in PA grade schools to 9 year olds? do you support the humanity which straps on nail bombs and heads for the nearest shopping mall?

 

[pcanning]

does israel have racist people (i.e. religious settlers)? yes it does. is it a problem? yes it is.

it's a wider problem than the 'religious settlers'. I don't want to quote selectively but, for example, from one of the Israeli studies, '64% believe that their government should "encourage" Israeli Arabs to emigrate from Israel (so-called "transfer")'.

you would find similarly high numbers in the UK who hold hateful opinions of 'asylum seekers'. those people wouldn't think it is but.. there's our racism problem.

but theres an equally, if not a larger problem of arab racism as well, which none of you seem to acknoweldge.

acknowledged. there you go. it's awful. having read many accounts of how gay palestinians are treated, for example, i know they flee to israel. I know something about this, much of which I've gathered from that [irony]notoriously anti-semitic[/irony] british media such as a channel four piece about young palestinian boys. i have also watched brave people like peter tatchell challenge the islamists.

but i see you have a 'but ...'

support humanity? what does that mean? you dont seem to support violence, religious fanaticism or racism on selective basis

okay. it means that ideas like 'anti-racism' are indivisible. there can be no excuses for it. and no, i don't support violence, even as a tactic. only in certain real situations of self-defence (like WW2).

there are two problems with your 'but':
1. the first is that the 'but there's this context' or 'they're worse than us' finger-pointing is the same argument used to excuse palestinian support for suicide bombers (desperation anyone?). it is one thing to - as cherie blair did - try to understand the reasons for it. it's another to excuse it.
2. israelis as a people will not get anywhere until they deal with this problem themselves. and the first stage to that is acknowledgement. this is what Dr King, Gandhi and all the other great teachers of and to minority and oppressed people would say. and there are many, many israelis who say it too. did you read Gideon Levy's piece?

this is not irrelevant frippery or hand-ringing western guilt. this is realpolitix. racism is about hate and hate drives this conflict. if you acknowledge your neighbours humanity and treat her as you would have yourself treated then you will not see 'them' as 'other' but the same as you. which they are. 'arab' 'jew' 'gay' - whatever. it's all labels on human beings. start from or at least aim for that point.

all I or anyone else can do is point to our own experience and to have an outsiders view based on those experiences. this contribution is not necessarily welcome but it should be. not everyone hates israelis! i certainly don't. but i am saying that you are not dealing with the reality (extensive and institutionalised racism) as a problem. you acknowledge it exists but then don't talk about what could be done or your own experience of it - you say 'but arabs are worse' like a nervous tic. I couldn't caricature this better than you're doing yourself. you sound exactly like police defending institutionalised racism after the lawrence inquiry or white australians saying 'what have we got to apologise for?' or a sudanese official saying 'give us time' for that matter.

forget geopolitics or what arafat's up to or anything else - this 'state of denial' goes absolutely to the heart of the whole conflict. and that applies to all those arabs who would make excuses for hatred too.

no one has dibs on oppression. jewish people are not the only ones who have been subjected to attempted genocide. arab people are not the only people who have been colonised.

i work with australian Aboriginal people and they would have 'more reason' than either jews or arabs to hate the people who caused their pain - white australians. they don't.

fortunately, and hopefully, there are people like Gideon Levy and those arabs working for peace alongside jewish people and great Aboriginal leaders who inspire me and who understand that hatred is a blind alley.

 

[invisibleplanet]

the viciousness of anti-semitism in the arab world. you see israel in a single prism of light,

i beg to differ. we talk of anti-zionism, not anti-semitism.
mostly, it is anti-zionism which you jews often mixed up with anti-semitism.

mostly, the world, treasures their jewish people.
mostly, the world sees the zionist agenda as something political and separate. something which threatens the very fabric of jewish culture.

do you know what is taught in PA grade schools to 9 year olds? do you support the humanity which straps on nail bombs and heads for the nearest shopping mall?

pretty much the same doctrine as you teach your lot.
have u seen the 'wealth' of modern zionist literature? don't talk about indoctrination to me until you are prepared to accept that the printed literature which zionists circulate around the world is in itself racist towards all Arabs.

the arabs are against ZIONISM not against JEWRY

 

[pcanning]

you jews

if Tribal wrote "you arabs" would you think that a racist statement?

"you jews" says 'you're all alike'. paints all jewish people with the same brush. it is a racist form of words.

i know you're angry but think before you type. it's worth the effort

 

[kropotkin]

great posts pcanning. totally agree (apart from the passive resistance bit)

The non-exclusivity of racism and oppression is what makes me anti-zionist. The experience of the holocaust in my family doesn't make me blind to the oppression dished out by the Israeli state, it hightens it. Never again, as they say.

Never again indeed.

 

[tribal]

mostly, it is anti-zionism which you jews often mix up with anti-semitism.

mostly, the world, treasures their jewish people.
mostly, the world sees the zionist agenda as something political and separate. something which threatens the very fabric of jewish culture.

really?

first, lets figure out what your version of the word zionist is. for me, zionism is simply a yearing of the jewish people for a homeland that they lost in the time of diaspora. zionism is the drive for a jewish homeland and independence after centuries of persecution in non-jewish lands. thats it. nothing more. you, somehow morph this ideology into a scary racist jewish monster.

now, as to your claims that racist hate in the arab world media is 'anti-zionist' not 'anti semitic'.

explain to me how playing a tv-miniseries on the Elders of Zion (a notorious racist forgery) does not constitute hate? every friday, Islamic sermons are filled with this kind of garbage:

Saudi Arabia's Grand Mufti Sheikh Abd Al-'Aziz Aal Al-Sheikh addressed the matter at the Nimra mosque in 'Arafa: "Those who attack Islam and its people - what have they given to the human race?! What have they to be proud of?! They gave a false, contemptible culture; they gave various kinds of damage to [human] freedoms and rights on the pretext of preserving these values; they gave discrimination among people by color, gender, language, and race; they gave technology to create weapons of mass destruction for the destruction of the human race; they gave forms of deceit and falshood…"[14]

One issue that is frequently discussed when comparing Islamic and Western civilizations is 'Western permissiveness.' Sheikh Sa'd Bin Abdallah Al-'Ajameh Al-Ghamdi discussed this subject in a sermon which focused on homosexuality; the sermon was delievered at the Sa'id Al-Jandoul mosque in Al-Taif: "This act is not alien and uncommon to the brothers of monkeys and pigs [i.e. Jews] and the debased among the infidels…"

"It shocked me to read and hear about the audacity of the 'Betrayer-General' of all nations [a reference to the U.N. Secretary-General], who by affiliation and loyalty is a combination of a Jew and a Christian and leads the people to Hell. He called to stop the incursion of this disease called AIDS - although two months earlier he had contradicted this call when, in stupidity and brazenness, he led the nations calling for permissiveness that causes this disease. He called for permitting adultery and spreading acts of abomination and homosexuality, which is a sexual perversion, and even invited this kind of people to a conference in order to call for premitting them marriage of the third kind…"[15]

Part II - 'Jews - The Descendants of Pigs and Apes'
"The Jews" are the central issue of many sermons delivered in Saudi mosques. When discussing Jews, preachers base their sermons on Koranic history, as well as on pseudo-historic events which affirm the Koranic view. In addition, many preachers refer to the Jews as "apes and pigs," a Koranic reference. "When will the sleepers awake?" asked Sheikh Bandar bin Khalaf Al-'Utaibi, in a sermon at the Abu Bakr Al-Saddiq mosque in Al-Damam. "Is there any kind of humiliation we have not tasted from the brothers of apes and pigs?!"[16]

"Oh Muslims, see the state of the nation today, after it deviated from the path set out by the clerics," said Sheikh Mustafa Bin Said Aytim in a sermon given at a mosque in Mecca. "[The nation] has made the offspring of apes and pigs its stars; the hangers-on of the apes and pigs have become the centers of influence and power… The Jews, Christians, and the hypocrites gnaw away at the body of the nation and then carry out raids on it with the knights of the destructive media and with the deadly weapon of globalization…"

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Area=sr&ID=SR01002#II


this isnt some random crazy talking. this is a sermon thats given out every friday. your claims that this racism and hate breeding is merely 'anti-zionist' is false and self-dilusional. apes and pigs does not sound like an argument against a political movement.

pretty much the same doctrine as you teach your lot.
have u seen the 'wealth' of modern zionist literature? don't talk about indoctrination to me until you are prepared to accept that the printed literature which zionists circulate around the world is in itself racist towards all Arabs.

you must be reading JDL's literature, because you seem to have a hard-on for using the word 'zionist' as a slur. there is nothing wrong with wanting your own homeland and self-determination. show me any jewish sabbath sermons which even come close to what the sheiks of saudi arabia and west bank are preaching, and i wont have any arguments with you. while there are small numbers of extremist jewish settlers who i would definitely call racist, their views and their ideology is on the far fringe of the israeli society, which for the most part despises them. on the other hand, almost 70% of the palestinian population supports suicide bombings. if you've seen the documentary "Death in Gaza", you saw what little kids are taught by their parents.

the arabs are against ZIONISM not against JEWRY

and santa clause lives in north pole.

 

[pk]

Fuck off Tribal, you racist cunt.

Any wonder there are suicide bombers in Israel when fuckheads like you claim to represent Israelis?

You represent a spoilt kid in New York with a twisted agenda.

No more no less.

Like I said - fuck off.

 

[pcanning]

The Jews, Christians, and the hypocrites gnaw away at the body of the nation and then carry out raids on it with the knights of the destructive media and with the deadly weapon of globalization…"

sounds like something jerry falwell or some other southern baptist demagogue might say (alter wording slightly) ...

also, perhaps being gay gives me a whole different perspective, given that venom gets directed at me/us of a similar nature. but not just from Saudi ... I could go on and on about it but wouldn't I just sound like a 'victim'?

what actual new information are you sharing here? I know, and I suspect we all know, that the Wahabists are religious nutters who hate.

I consider these people fascists and I think if they were referred to that way it would bring a little clarity into it by removing the religious way of defining them.

zionism is the drive for a jewish homeland and independence after centuries of persecution in non-jewish lands.

well howsabout I set up a new gay ideology. we'd like a new independent state of ... oww... Gommorah thanks .. it's in Israel (or was) ... and it's historically important to us. we're a persecuted minority and need somewhere we can call our own and feel safe. we'll use all our scientists to build some big bombs which we won't tell you about but they'll finally make us feel big and strong and no-one's ever going to think they'll walk over us ever again.

blah, blah ..... yes, I 'get' zionism.

there are a stack of persecuted minorities in the world, tribal. all comparing their victimhood with others and pinning badges on themselves. do you think your people's situation is something special? is the shoah your argument? is gay victimhood less than jewish? or do the Roma or the Guarani have it easier? or any number of other tribal peoples who have been and continue to be subjected to genocide? are jewish people the most persecuted in the history of the world and therefore a special case?

Humanity is the loser here. humanity loses when *any minority is persecuted.

racism is racism. full stop.

show me any jewish sabbath sermons which even come close to what the sheiks of saudi arabia and west bank are preaching, and i wont have any arguments with you.

what does 65% support for 'transfer' represent? and all the other info I quoted? do these Israeli academics have it wrong? are you challenging their findings?

your argument seems to be based on setting up straw men which you then knock over with ease.

when someone like Gideon Levy is introduced, your method seems to be to ignore them and carry on as before.

if you're not listening to what other jewish people are saying, if all you want to do is 'correct' us ignoramouses about the 'reality' then carrying on running around in your little circle, if that's makes you feel any better then go ahead. I don't think it makes you anything others than dizzy though mate.

personally, I got all my feelings about 'breeders' out of my system a long time ago. people i respect like peter tatchell showed me another way of looking at the world. engaging with Aboriginal people put my 'suffering' into perspective.

"their ideology is on the far fringe of the israeli society, which for the most part despises them."

or the 25% some Israeli academics found would support Kach if it were legal?

you're back in the schoolyard, pointing the finger, saying 'but they hate more than I do miss!'

 

[bruise]

it's very noticeable that when pcanning comes up with coherent, thoughtful, insightful and very human and caring posts, Tribal completely ignores them. Obviously it doesn't matter what one individual does, but Tribal is probably quite representative of liberal and not so liberal zionists in Israel and around the world.

In every post he puts up here you can see the root cause of this - the belief that one group (ethnic/cultural/religious) deserves a "country of it's own". This is a racist fallacy and you can see the cancer work through his thought patterns following on from it. I've asked him in the past to identify another country where one similar group has a country of their own, and he's never replied. The only attempt I can think of is back in the 'naked imperialist' days, and in apartheid South Africa.

It's also a fallacy in that it's a belief that if only 'we' can get one country somewhere 'we'll' be safe. You'd think that one had been pretty comprehensively disproved in the last 50 years - such a dream always by definition involves the exclusion/oppression of 'the other' and it's a process through which the 'victim' becomes 'oppressor' without even a pause at the 'living in equality' stage.

- apart from anything else, most Jewish people world wide have nil desire to move to Israel - much like Tribal himself. So while this desire for 'security' infantalises his outlook (foot stamping, like pcanning has pointed out - look, mummy, they're worse over there!) it represents an abstraction, a mirage in any case. How is a 'secure' Israel going to help a Jewish NYer fight against racism? How much racism does a Jewish NYer face? How does it compare to going through an IDF/IOF bodycheck?

The trouble is, of course - the rich westerners 'abstraction' is a very real, hateful and oppressive reality for those at the sharp end (Jews and Palestinians alike) - and that is the reality Tribal's blinkers prevents him from seeing.

 

[pcanning]

In every post he puts up here you can see the root cause of this - the belief that one group (ethnic/cultural/religious) deserves a "country of it's own". This is a racist fallacy.

this wouldn't be my argument.

to explain. dispossessed groups such as tribal peoples have a similar need for their own country. now, whether this means literally their own state or whether this means autonomy or, in the case of Australia, very limited land rights, this all comes from the same, human imperative.

the 'connection to the land' cited by Jewish people, though not phrased that way, is the same feeling that, say, aborigines feel for Uluru (ayer's rock).

I am not disparaging the Jewish imperative.

what I am saying is that it and the accompanying feelings (or reality) of persecution are not special to one group and do not entitle those peoples to become the oppressors themselves.

 

[ViolentPanda]

really?

first, lets figure out what your version of the word zionist is. for me, zionism is simply a yearing of the jewish people for a homeland that they lost in the time of diaspora. zionism is the drive for a jewish homeland and independence after centuries of persecution in non-jewish lands. thats it. nothing more. you, somehow morph this ideology into a scary racist jewish monster.

Let's break this down. You say "..for me, zionism is simplay a yearning...". That's the crux of it, wouldn't you say, that different people (pro and anti) have different interpretations of what Zionism is and what the aims are of the various supporters of various pro-Zionist organisations?

It isn't a question of "morphing" anything, it's that your personal interpretation of Zionism may not accord with the interpretations, wishes or aims of others.

 

[pk]

Zionism and Nazism.

I can't tell the difference really...

 

[bruise]

this wouldn't be my argument.

to explain. dispossessed groups such as tribal peoples have a similar need for their own country. now, whether this means literally their own state or whether this means autonomy or, in the case of Australia, very limited land rights, this all comes from the same, human imperative.

the 'connection to the land' cited by Jewish people, though not phrased that way, is the same feeling that, say, aborigines feel for Uluru (ayer's rock).

as you also say - you haven't read an aboriginal australian who, as a result of the appalling treatment they have received (a long drawn-out holocaust) therefore wanted to kick the rest of the population out, or force them to live as harrassed second class citizens - that would be the equivalent.

most liberation struggles have included many different cultural groups within them, and experience of oppression has usually meant some kind of concept of rights, liberty, equality and all the rest - which tends to include whatever minority groups there are within the larger 'nation'.

In contrast the Zionist push has always been for a cultural/racial purity that's completely at odds with the Jewish historical experience of living within many communities in the Middle East and at odds with the liberalism and radicalism Jewish people have contributed to politics and thought around the globe. I think to call it a 'Jewish imperative' is to ignore the fact that the larger political strands of Jewish thought have always been opposed to Zionism. And there's a larger Jewish community choses not to live in Israel than the community who have chosen to move there.

And don't forget, at the other end of the 'liberal' scale - the existance of "Israel" is opposed by the many orthodox communities who can more plausibly have claim to have longevity of living in the area, compared to more recent American and European settlers.

 

[pcanning]

as you also say - you haven't read an aboriginal australian who, as a result of the appalling treatment they have received (a long drawn-out holocaust) therefore wanted to kick the rest of the population out, or force them to live as harrassed second class citizens - that would be the equivalent.

owh I have heard aboriginal people saying all sorts of things! don't fall into the sterotype of tribal people always being passive. remember the redfern riot? however, in general, even the most 'radical' people, such as those with a Soverignity agenda, are not arguing anything on racial grounds against other australians.

In contrast the Zionist push has always been for a cultural/racial purity that's completely at odds with the Jewish historical experience of living within many communities in the Middle East and at odds with the liberalism and radicalism Jewish people have contributed to politics and thought around the globe. I think to call it a 'Jewish imperative' is to ignore the fact that the larger political strands of Jewish thought have always been opposed to Zionism. And there's a larger Jewish community choses not to live in Israel than the community who have chosen to move there.

the distinction is that the imperitive I'm talking about is cultural/religious and would apply to most if not all people with Jewish heritage. same thing that made me pine for britain when I moved to Oz. this shouldn't be conflated with Zionism, which is a political idea, and which some might argue exploits that imperitive.

 

[invisibleplanet]

the distinction is that the imperitive I'm talking about is cultural/religious and would apply to most if not all people with Jewish heritage. same thing that made me pine for britain when I moved to Oz. this shouldn't be conflated with Zionism, which is a political idea, and which some might argue exploits that imperitive.

and so can we now say that the IDF, who had once at their helm the leaders of several ZIONIST terror groups, NEVER HAD MORALITY in the first place?

 

[bruise]

weird - i put a further post which has disappeared.