ID cards: What are potential targets for Direct Action?

[fela fan]

Everyone belonging to the big bank, to the big database, where all info is stored.

Insanity. By those that have initiated the whole exercise, and by those who will just meekly accept it all. I find it pretty much beyond comprehension what is happening with regard to this compiling of a database with 60 million members...

Ironically, even though i emigrated years ago, i need a new passport in a couple of years or so, so looks like i'm going to have to have one! But fuck it i don't give a monkeys, i don't live there.

If i did though i'd never in a million years be put on that database. It would mean taking my holidays in britain, but so what. Although, can't you get over to spain or france without a passport these days? What's the rule on that?

To all those who will fight this disgraceful attack on human liberty in a country that still professes to be free and to have freedom of speech, i extend my best wishes and wish you well in the fight. I cannot get over the fact that because i've emigrated i will actually be forced into being put onto the database!!

I'm a number, i'm a number, dalala dalala, i'm a number i'm a number... to punk tunes or pop...??

 

[axon]

So which of our glorious corporations will actually be given the billions of pounds to set up and run this database. Where are there corporate headquarters? Where will they be recruiting data entry personnel. Who will make the scanners?

 

[Brixton Hatter]

So which of our glorious corporations will actually be given the billions of pounds to set up and run this database. Where are there corporate headquarters? Where will they be recruiting data entry personnel. Who will make the scanners?

unfortunately i dont think we'll find that out for some time yet...

where do they propose to collect people's data/biometric info? doctor's surgeries? special centres?

 

[rich!]

Very KJ, very. And history will show it as being our generation that stood by watching our goverment ripping to shreds the hard-fought freedoms that previous generations secured for us. Our generation across the board, mps, journos, academics, pundits, general people.

Our generation sat by idly, too fucking comfortable, too seduced by the telly and celebrities' lives, and too fearful to confront what they know to be abuse of power. Our generation have said yes to being known by a number, and that is too insane for words the way i see things.

Wow. (applauds)

Do you think the denazification people will be gentle with us when we're old and Hess?

 

[fela fan]

Wow. (applauds)

Do you think the denazification people will be gentle with us when we're old and Hess?

Dunno rich. But we don't deserve to be gently dealt with. In fact we're a bloody disgrace!

 

[kyser_soze]

Hmm, well there's already a dbase of everyone over the age of 16 called 'National Insurance' which theorectically covers your ID for health, social security payments etc; way over 50% of UK citizens are passport holders and have a driving licence; more than 60% of the UK population have a credit and/or debit card.

Can anyone tell me how having a non-compulsory ID card is somehow a 'restriction' on my freedom or that my details being held on government dbases is in ANY way different from the current situation only that having it all on one card (passport, licence, medical records access rights etc) might actually be useful to people?

 

[Onket]

Them calling it non-compulsory when it actually is if you want to renew your passport or driving licence is a bit sneaky though isn't it.

 

[kyser_soze]

Them calling it non-compulsory when it actually is if you want to renew your passport or driving licence is a bit sneaky though isn't it.

The government have records on me of the following aspects of my life:

Work history
Education history
Tax history
Where I've lived for the last 33 years
Driving licence
Passport
Health and dental records
I can be asked, and if necessary be compelled to prove who I am, to a court.

All this before ID cards were introduced. Where exactly are these 'great freedoms' I'm loosing? For my money the glorification of Terrorism bill is more dangerous and pernicious than legislation that potentially will mean I don't have to carry separate bits of ID around containing information that the govt already has on me.

 

[Onket]

The government have records on me of the following aspects of my life:

Work history
Education history
Tax history
Where I've lived for the last 33 years
Driving licence
Passport
Health and dental records
I can be asked, and if necessary be compelled to prove who I am, to a court.

All this before ID cards were introduced. Where exactly are these 'great freedoms' I'm loosing? For my money the glorification of Terrorism bill is more dangerous and pernicious than legislation that potentially will mean I don't have to carry separate bits of ID around containing information that the govt already has on me.

Why is this a reply to my post?

 

[kyser_soze]

Whoops...somehow deleted the line 'Yeah it's sneaky but they've already got the following on me...'

 

[Onket]

Whoops...somehow deleted the line 'Yeah it's sneaky but they've already got the following on me...'

 

[fela fan]

Kyser, so they already have all that info on you from all those sources. Why then do they want us to have these ID cards, at a cost, apparantly, of 100 quid x 60 million people?

And does not the iris scanning and fingerprinting cause you any problems? And being reduced to a number every time you fill out a form?

Don't you think that some kind of omnipresent machine replacing God as being the superior of us is any kind of attack on our freedom? At least with God people had the choice to ignore him. With ID cards, in effect a machine, controlling us, we have no such choice.

I take your point that technically things may actually not be any different, but what about the human side of things? What about the fact that we are supposed to be born free? What about the fact that the state is aiming for greater control over our lives? Does none of this bother you?

 

[kyser_soze]

And being reduced to a number every time you fill out a form?

I have...

An NI number
A passport number
An NHS patient number
A d/licence number
A bank account number
A phone number

All of these are used as primary pieces of ID when dealing with the relevant organisation, so from the day I was born I've been a 'number'.

I don't regard dbases as an 'omnipresent machine' - for example, the quote earlier about child safety. Uncovering child abuse is a valid task for the state to pursue yes? Then in order to do so the branches of the state that are most likely in contact with the chid - education, social services and the police - would be better served being able to access 1 set of details and notes to both analyse and report on than having to wade through duplicate information from 2 or three separate sources?

If you live in a country with a state apparatus (eg. healthcare, social services, welfare) someone, somewhere has to administer all this, records of you have to be processed. The most personal data that anyone has on me - my tax and heath records for example - are administered by the state so again I ask, where is this difference? And would being 'free' of state records necessarily mean I was in any way better off? When it comes to health I certainly wouldn't be!!

My issues with ID cards come not from the principle but from the practical side of it - how the system will run, who has access to it and for what purposes and what notification of this access I will have, and above all, how secure it will be. Iris scans and fingerprints are no different from a PIN number - it's another method of verifying your ID.

And how exactly am I controlled by a machine by carrying an ID card? Is it any different from carrying a passport or d/licence?

 

[acfj]

A lot of people object to fingerprint scanning and iris scanning on grounds of faith. Same with photo's, which is why a lot of muslim women do not have passports. It is very unlikley that either will be introduced.

The thing with ID cards is probably not as bad as you think. Some of the accusations and worries about person freedom on this board are completely overblown. It would take a very clever government to do some of the things you are suspicious of, and we haven't got one. They also haven't got the money or brains.

On a completely different subject, do any of you ever think about the direction technology is moving in. With wireless applications, and appliances being mass integrated, and the effect this will have on personal freedom, anonmity etc, seems far more worrying to me.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Hmm, well there's already a dbase of everyone over the age of 16 called 'National Insurance' which theorectically covers your ID for health, social security payments etc; way over 50% of UK citizens are passport holders and have a driving licence; more than 60% of the UK population have a credit and/or debit card.

Can anyone tell me how having a non-compulsory ID card is somehow a 'restriction' on my freedom or that my details being held on government dbases is in ANY way different from the current situation only that having it all on one card (passport, licence, medical records access rights etc) might actually be useful to people?

Here are just a few of many possible answers to your points

1) This is system is specifically designed to include EVERYONE, not just the majorities you outline. The reasons given by the state for the "neccessity" of this are shallow.

2) Many people are (rightly IMO) affronted by the notion of the state taking their fingerprints and eye scans for a database.

3) This more sophisiticated and all-encompassing system (assuming it works) is therefore far more open to abuse by future state and corporations. If you can give us evidence of the benign nature of future governments, please do so along with Wednesdays Lotto numbers.

4) If you think this sounds great and convinient then be my guest to join the queue for one. No one has any right to expect me to submit.

 

[kyser_soze]

On a completely different subject, do any of you ever think about the direction technology is moving in. With wireless applications, and appliances being mass integrated, and the effect this will have on personal freedom, anonmity etc, seems far more worrying to me.

I've tried raising the issues surrounding privacy in digital societies - be that radom cameraphone pictures or CCTV or ID cards - before and been met with an array of pre-digital responses and 'rfids on razor blades can be tracked from space' replies.

 

[nino_savatte]

I will refuse to buy one. If enough people refuse, what can they do? Throw us all in prison? It will clog up the courts for sure and what of those people on benefits? Is the government going to pay for their ID cards? I doubt it.

This could be Nu Labour's Poll Tax.

 

[kyser_soze]

Here are just a few of many possible answers to your points

1) This is system is specifically designed to include EVERYONE, not just the majorities you outline. The reasons given by the state for the "neccessity" of this are shallow.

2) Many people are (rightly IMO) affronted by the notion of the state taking their fingerprints and eye scans for a database.

3) This more sophisiticated and all-encompassing system (assuming it works) is therefore far more open to abuse by future state and corporations. If you can give us evidence of the benign nature of future governments, please do so along with Wednesdays Lotto numbers.

4) If you think this sounds great and convinient then be my guest to join the queue for one. No one has any right to expect me to submit.

But let me get this correct - these ID cards are non-compulsory, yes?

Then as nino says, simply don't get one. If you've already got a passport/dl you're already a number and quite frankly ID cards don't change that. Surely the most direct action you can take is simply refusing to get one?

And regarding your first point - NHS and NI numbers are universal so it's not like there aren't existing dbases of 'everyone' that the govt has access to.

 

[Fullyplumped]

A lot of people object to fingerprint scanning and iris scanning on grounds of faith. Same with photo's, which is why a lot of muslim women do not have passports.

Eh? I never heard that before. Can you tell us more?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

But let me get this correct - these ID cards are non-compulsory, yes?

Then as nino says, simply don't get one. If you've already got a passport/dl you're already a number and quite frankly ID cards don't change that. Surely the most direct action you can take is simply refusing to get one?

And regarding your first point - NHS and NI numbers are universal so it's not like there aren't existing dbases of 'everyone' that the govt has access to.

Well, no, they're not really non-compulsory, but soon if you want to renew your passport you'll have to get one, and I suspect that they will become effectively compulsory if one wishes to access government services, unless something is done.

And there is a difference between having multiple unconnected databases which contain information required to actually perform the service that's being provided, and having a centralised database containing unprecedented amounts and types of data that has no specific purpose. There are legal and practical barriers at the moment to using stored information for surveillance; those are being significantly eroded, at the same time as there's a move to gather personal information on a massive scale, fingerprinting demonstrators, taking DNA and keeping it, and so on. I don't like that myself. If I'm going to give out information I want to know exactly why, what it's used for, who will have access to it, and be sure that it's not going to be stored any longer than absolutely necessary. I don't have any of that.

 

[kyser_soze]

If I'm going to give out information I want to know exactly why, what it's used for, who will have access to it, and be sure that it's not going to be stored any longer than absolutely necessary. I don't have any of that.

Which are exactly the same questions/issues I have - and have for a long time as well.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

I have...

An NI number
A passport number
An NHS patient number
A d/licence number
A bank account number
A phone number

All of these are used as primary pieces of ID when dealing with the relevant organisation, so from the day I was born I've been a 'number'.

But under ID cards all this info will be in the same place. Potentially loads of people could have access to it, including private firms.

The reason I object is that it's all about information and control. The Govt essentially wants to know who everyone is, where they are, what they're doing etc, and want to have the ability to find out anything about anyone at any time. They are being dishonest about the opbjectives of the scheme. If they really wanted an ID card scheme simply to prove your identity, there would be no reason to have a central database - your biometric info would be on the card and by using the card in conjunction with your fingerprint you confirm your identity. No need for a database - which will be the biggest database in the world, anywhere, ever!

 

[zenie]

Is the government going to pay for their ID cards? I doubt it.

Am I right in thinking you dont pay if you're unemployed/on benefits?

So technically I could get quit my job sign on and then get one??

Also, if I say I've lost my passport now will I just be able to get a new 10 year one so then them having to wait 10 years to give me an ID card?

Why should we bloody carry them? It's like being in ze war

 

[Clif]

Demise

We had them in ze war, but Churchill's government abolished them in 1952 because they were useless and impractical in times of people.

I'm not religious, but this card pierces into my heart and soul. the eyes are the gateway to the soul, correct?

And the fingerprints are the gateway to a prison state.

I'm not influenced by these ideas of Orwellian Big Brother coming to visit, even if it is true.

We need more than non-compliance, and i don't care if i clog up the board a little, but we need solidarity.

Listen, i'm the laziest sod on the land, but i feel we, who are most dedicated to saving our humanity and freedoms to choice, body and national identity, must start our own pledges in our respective towns and cities. When the government recieve so many numbers, what can they do?

I'm about to start doing this in Belfast soon.
If anyone knows of the conscription crisis here during WWII you will see the extra problem here. Irish nationalists are going to resent the fact that all people will be forced to have a British ID cards...at least when they find out this is so when i begin my campaign.

We can only win by solidarity! The government is a servant of the people not the other way round, and lately they haven't been listening, it's about time we let them know we will be heard.

It's as simple as this, things are going to keep changing against our favour, ask youself, how long will you wait before you draw the line? And by the time you'll have realised that there's nothing any of us will be able to do.

 

[smokedout]

to all the bravados saying i wont be getting one, wait till ya have kids ... child benefits, school, doctors, health visitors, childcare ... you aint got a chance

i lost my passport last year and its sa fucking nightmare, cant claim benefit, had a month long row with my bank trying to change my address, theyve got it tucked up, cos when you need something whether money, healthcare, housing, legal aid ... people roll over

i wrote this some time ago about the national databse for street homeless people, which im starting to think may have been a prototype for the system they're planning to us ... wild specualtion, but seems to fit the bill

The creation of a national database is being planned with Orwellian stealth.

I've seen how it's going to go down.

The Homeless Link database is used by charities and statutory services for dealing with current and ex-street homeless people. Each 'client' is held on this computerised record and any worker who is working with that individual, from any agency 'in the link' can access and post information about the client.

Information includes details on mental health/medication, current and former drug use, criminal convictions, housing history, employment and education, sexuality, physical health, pretty much everything about an individual you'd wanna know if you were some sinister control freak despot.

It also includes details of interventions, this means info about the any times that an agency has intervened in a clients life, a typical entry might be

"visited ***** today, he seems very down because his benefits haven't turned up. is drinking heavily, have concerns about deteriation of his mental health"

or such like, allowing every other professional to read what is going on in that clients life without having to ring/e-mail a worker as they would have had to previously.

Whilst it was resisted by many frontline workers, and checks and balances were put in place (such as police not having access to the database - like we believe them) it is a very useful tool, and is used across the sector (although in the end this was enforced on workers rather than agreed with them).

The informal nature of the record keeping means that unsubstantiated allegations can appear that will dog a clients life for years. the void personally knows of one client who had a suspected and not very serious incident of arson on his record (for which he was never arrested let alone convicted).

This had an enourmous influence in the way he was treated as he began the long journey through the hostel system into a flat, as every professional who worked with him had him down as a potential fire raiser and treated him accordingly without any real evidence whatsoever that it was true.

Whilst clients do have the right to see information held on them (although this is rarely made clear) the agency involved can withold info if it feels that there may be a 'serious risk to the health and safety of the client or any other individual' if the client is 'allowed' to see it. No-one will tell the client this information exists, it will just be removed from the database and his/her file when the request to see it is made.

The Government announced shortly before Christmas that it is creating a database for all children in the UK, to be up and running by 2008.

The database will hold the following details for every child or young person:

*basic identifying information: name, address, gender, date of birth and a unique identifying number based on the existing Child Reference Number/National Insurance Number
* basic identifying information about the child’s parent or carer;
* contact details for services involved with the child: as a minimum school and GP practice, but also other services where appropriate; and
* the facility for practitioners to indicate to others that they have information to share, are taking action, or have undertaken an assessment, in relation to a child.

which all seem very familiar.

Presumably when that child turns 18 then information will be transferred to the National ID database, thereby creating a lifelong record held by the state of an incredible amount of information about an individual. Behaviourial problems at school ... you could still be living them down when your 50.

And imagine how much that information could be worth - to marketing companies, cops, drug companies, employers, paedophiles and ex-lovers, you name it, they'll buy it.

from the void