ID Cards - Tool of oppression?

[Isambard]

Then the UK government needs to work out its arse and elbow.

ID cards are touted as being used to regulate take up of social security and NHS services. These are rightly claimed by non British Citizens in the UK.

You CANNOT have an access card to social security and NHS and a CITIZENS ID card valid for travel to other EU countries combined onto one piece of plastic.

And the Northern Ireland issue is going to be a BIG can of worms.

 

[tobyjug]

You CANNOT have an access card to social security and NHS and a CITIZENS ID card valid for travel to other EU countries combined onto one piece of plastic.
.

Why not? In my experience all the French plod care about is you are carrying some ID. (They are not too fussy what it is).
The only problem is getting out of Britain and getting back in. If British ID cards get you out and back through British port checks you are not going to have any problem in Europe with just a Britich ID card.

 

[Isambard]

Why not? In my experience all the French plod care about is you are carrying some ID. (They are not too fussy what it is).

Europlod want a a doccument that proves your STATUS ie are you a CITIZEN enjoying your right to move throughout the EU. An old bus ticket is NOT going to be accepted.

Already for example Greek issued ID cards are not recognised in Germany.

 

[souljacker]

Which will save me a lot of money as I will only need a £30 ID card and not an £88 passport.

How Much?

More like £45 unless you want a same day service

 

[tobyjug]

Already for example Greek issued ID cards are not recognised in Germany.

That does not surprise me one little bit. If anyone bothered to find out they would realise there is going to be a European standard for ID cards and a British card will comply with that standard.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Is anyone aware of what companies are lobbying the government in order to get this biometric database up and running?? Amongst those that have a vested interest are the following: Airbus, British Airways, BAE Systems, Bank of England, Barclays Bank, BBC, BNFL, BP, BT, Syntegra, Experian, Glaxosmithkline, HBOS, HSBC, Lloyds TSb, Pfizer, Pilkington, Proctor and Gamble, Rolls Royce, RBOS, Royal Mail, Sainsburys, Shell, SCB and Tesco.

All of the above are members of Private User Group.

All in the name of making their organisations "more secure" ?? Ok. British Airways... but Sainsbury's, Shell and Tesco??? Companies will be able to pay to access the database. Well that's ok then. Under current laws you will have no rights to know who has attempted to access your data. The information on this database belongs to society. Why should the home office be custodian of information pertinant to me and be able to sell that to other bodies?

 

[goneforlunch]

Is anyone aware of what companies are lobbying the government in order to get this biometric database up and running?? Amongst those that have a vested interest are the following: Airbus, British Airways, BAE Systems, Bank of England, Barclays Bank, BBC, BNFL, BP, BT, Syntegra, Experian, Glaxosmithkline, HBOS, HSBC, Lloyds TSb, Pfizer, Pilkington, Proctor and Gamble, Rolls Royce, RBOS, Royal Mail, Sainsburys, Shell, SCB and Tesco.

All of the above are members of Private User Group.

All in the name of making their organisations "more secure" ?? Ok. British Airways... but Sainsbury's, Shell and Tesco??? Companies will be able to pay to access the database. Well that's ok then. Under current laws you will have no rights to know who has attempted to access your data. The information on this database belongs to society. Why should the home office be custodian of information pertinant to me and be able to sell that to other bodies?

Couldn't agree with you more.

The anarchists link above made a good point in that the new proposed children's database will mean that data on as much as 50% of the population will be centrally collected in this way. Chilling.

 

[TAE]

children's database ?!

 

[Giles]

I am not going to get an ID card. I don't see the need.

Giles..

 

[goneforlunch]

children's database ?!

The one the recommended by the Victoria Climbie enquiry that's supposed to protect children from being abused. It will cover all children. Information in the link provided by Charlie Mowbray, post 25 in this thread.

I am not going to get an ID card. I don't see the need.

And if the government tells you there is a need and makes carrying one compulsory? ....

 

[Giles]

The one the recommended by the Victoria Climbie enquiry that's supposed to protect children from being abused. It will cover all children. Information in the link provided by Charlie Mowbray, post 25 in this thread.



And if the government tells you there is a need and makes carrying one compulsory? ....

I don't care what they tell me. My common sense tells me that they are wrong - there is no need for everyone to be forced to have, let alone carry, ID cards. They patently will not stop terrorists, and I fear that certain sections of the population will suffer undue harrassment from the authorities, being asked to produce ID all the time.

I think that there is very real oppostion to this, it may not have shown itself yet, but it will when they actually start telling people that they have to go and get one (and pay for it!). Wait and see.

Giles..

 

[goneforlunch]

I don't care what they tell me. My common sense tells me that they are wrong - there is no need for everyone to be forced to have, let alone carry, ID cards. They patently will not stop terrorists, and I fear that certain sections of the population will suffer undue harrassment from the authorities, being asked to produce ID all the time.

This has been on the cards since before 9/11, but then politicians tried to make out that such measures were necessary to combat fraud. Terrorism has just been a convenient excuse to persuade the population that it is for their own good!

Direct action will become more necessary as the politicians become more totalitarian. So it's not just 'certain sections' of the population who should worry, it's everyone who might wish to protest against the government of the day. In the coming surveillance society, dissenters will find life hard.

I think that there is very real oppostion to this, it may not have shown itself yet, but it will when they actually start telling people that they have to go and get one (and pay for it!). Wait and see.

Giles..

I hope you're right!

 

[Bajie]

A different central gouverment database holding information on children nationwide has existed for some time now "The Pupil Level Annual School Census" - which holds information of ALL children who attend state schools and soon nurseries also.. the information is supplied by the schools and there is no opt-out clause. The information the central database holds is gender, date of birth, Unique personal number, surname, first name, ethnic group, date of admission to school, first language and home postcode....

I think this was the first stepping stone to a central database on all citizens.. the second is this recent one resulting from the new Childrens Bill.

There are so many problems with this I dont know where to begin, but some good points put forward on this page (near the bottom)
http://www.arch-ed.org/issues/panopticon/databases.htm

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Why not? In my experience all the French plod care about is you are carrying some ID. (They are not too fussy what it is).

I take it you are not of North African appearance, then.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Already for example Greek issued ID cards are not recognised in Germany.

really? it used to be that all you needed to cross a border pre Schengen was an ID card. when did that change?

 

[tobyjug]

I take it you are not of North African appearance, then.

That has bugger all to do with it. If you are not carrying any ID in France if stopped checked ones race creed or colour is somewhat of an irrelevance.

 

[kiss_don't_dis]

Giles dude I'm with you.....Regardless of whether the government make ID cards compulsory i will not be carrying one.....peace

 

[guinnessdrinker]

That has bugger all to do with it. If you are not carrying any ID in France if stopped checked ones race creed or colour is somewhat of an irrelevance.

you are far more likely to be stopped if you are of the wrong race/ethnicity and your ID more thoroughly checked.

 

[tobyjug]

you are far more likely to be stopped if you are of the wrong race/ethnicity and your ID more thoroughly checked.

When the French plod have a blitz stop check they check everyone with out fear or favour or caring how much chaos they cause.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

When the French plod have a blitz stop check they check everyone with out fear or favour or caring how much chaos they cause.

blitz stop check where folks are overwhelmingly of the wrong race/ethnicity.
nice areas with lots of white folks with short hair and wearing ties don't get blitz stopped.

 

[kiss_don't_dis]

Interesting.......isn't that how the Brixton riots started?? The fact that stop 'n' search was used extensivley to the point where the police were stopping every black guy that walked the streets......anyone that looks non-british will be stopped and ID checked....this will indeed give rise to oppression....

 

[tobyjug]

nice areas with lots of white folks with short hair and wearing ties don't get blitz stopped.

Oh yes they do, even in rural Brittany. Stop checking everything that moves happens on a regular basis. (Luckily I always leave plenty of time to get to Roscoff to catch the ferry or I would have missed one once last year).

 

[fela fan]

ID cards are another step towards a police state.

Britain is very very close just right now.

I hope there is mass civil disobedience on this one. They'd have to build fuck loads more prisons to hold everybody.

Using simple maths, 50 quid times 60 million people comes to three billion quid. Who gets this money?

It really couldn't be more ironical, nor more a sign of the times, that it is labour bringing in this law...

 

[Giles]

Every police man-hour that gets spent on organising ID checking "blitz stop checks" or whatever, and then on arresting and charging people for the heinous offence of not having a piece of paper with their name on it in their pocket, is time that could better have been spent catching actual criminals.

Even worse, tactics like this increase general public resentment of the police by needlessly delaying law-abiding people going about their business.

Having ID cards necessitates having a whole new bunch of criminal offences that will take up time better spent elsewhere.

They are a complete waste of time.

Giles..

 

[tobyjug]

Every police man-hour that gets spent on organising ID checking "blitz stop checks" or whatever, and then on arresting and charging people for the heinous offence of not having a piece of paper with their name on it in their pocket, is time that could better have been spent catching actual criminals.

The multi-agency blitz stop checks already used in Britain have proven to be very cost effective.

 

[Isambard]

The multi-agency blitz stop checks already used......very cost effective.

Figures?

The multi-agency raid I was recently a witness to was blatently more costly than the "fraud" it prevented. As with regards to health or survival (social security) services it is debatable as to whether ANYONE hould be excluded.

 

[Giles]

The multi-agency blitz stop checks already used in Britain have proven to be very cost effective.

Since I don't know what you are talking about, I can't really comment, except to say: this "stop check" you refer to was done without ID cards being in place, so they can't really be needed, can they?

I'm still not getting one of these cards.

They are unnecessary, as is easily shown by the fact that we have managed quite well without them for all these years, and by the fact that all the crimes that they are supposed to eliminate blatantly happen in countries where they DO have ID cards.

Giles..

 

[tim]

I will not carry one. I don't believe the excuses trotted out by this government and their Tory cronies as to why they are necessary. The potential for abuse is truly frightening.

Thoughts anyone?

You won't need to carry one, once they've got your biometric info they'll be able to find out who you are from your iris, fingerprints, DNA etc.

 

[tobyjug]

Since I don't know what you are talking about, I can't really comment, except to say: this "stop check" you refer to was done without ID cards being in place, so they can't really be needed, can they?

Multi Agency Stop Check:- The police block off a road and stop every vehicle.
Every vehicle and occupants is checked by a the police, the vehicle inspectorate, whatever the benefits agency is called now, immigration, customs and exise ect.
Currently people who cannot readily be identified are sometimes detained if any of the agencies is suspicious of them.

 

[nino_savatte]

ID cards the sooner the better as far as I am concerned and DNA records from birth.

I reckon everyone should have a chip implanted at birth....like fuck.