ICC public forum: the working class is an immigrant class

[tbaldwin]

Sorry, I suppose you have tbaldwin

118118.I see you very much in the running to be a new marx....Not that there is anything with the old one, as you probably know...I mean lets face it you probably talk to him more than me..
A lot of people on Urban seem to be very very very clever but struggle with the way of getting all there lovely cleverness across to people who are less lovely and a lot lot lot less cleverish.
Thats why they need leadership.For a while i put my eggs in the IBT basket but now we have a new nest and new feathers in the shape of the ICC.
But we do seem to have a lack of birds....Why is that?

 

[Alfredo]

Keyboard: if the Soviet Union and the 'people's republics' of eastern Europe were a form of capitalism, doesn't that alter your argument a bit?

As far as 'our' doctrine about the decadence of capitalism is concerned, it's just Marx's idea that all forms of class society have reached a point where their continued existence becomes a barrier to human progress. Capitalism is no different from Ancient Rome or feudalism. Numerous revolutionaries saw the first world war as a clear indication that capitalism had reached this point. Some of them also noted that the previous organisations of the workers - the social democratic parties and the trade unions - helped the various capitalist states march the workers off to war, and from that point on they ceased to be workers' organisations.

In a nutshell.

 

[tbaldwin]

.

Capitalism is no different from Ancient Rome or feudalism.

In a nutshell.

I think in many ways that is so so true. Its like that film Life of Brian.

 

[JHE]

As far as 'our' doctrine about the decadence of capitalism is concerned, it's just Marx's idea that all forms of class society have reached a point where their continued existence becomes a barrier to human progress. Capitalism is no different from Ancient Rome or feudalism. Numerous revolutionaries saw the first world war as a clear indication that capitalism had reached this point. Some of them also noted that the previous organisations of the workers - the social democratic parties and the trade unions - helped the various capitalist states march the workers off to war, and from that point on they ceased to be workers' organisations.

1. There are two senses in which capitalism might be claimed to have become a 'fetter' (as Charlie M said) on development: (a) an absolute fetter on development or (b) a fetter compared to another superior way of organising production and distribution.

(a) It would clearly be bonkers to claim that there has been no development of the productive forces since 1914, so I assume, for the moment, that that's not what you are claiming.

(b) Instead, I suppose you mean that there could have been far superior development of the productive forces if capitalism had been replaced by communism at any time since 1914. That might even be true. The trouble is that we cannot know. It's just guessing about a history that has not happened.

2. Trade unions clearly are workers' organisations. By all means, disagree with this or that policy or propose more fusions (or fewer) or reforms to TU constitutions - but to claim that TUs are not workers' organisations just strikes me as bonkers. Sorry, Alf, but I've got to be blunt about this.

I wonder if you and other members of the ICS advise unionised workers to leave their unions.

IIRC, from the time when I used to read ICS and similar material, your real objection to TUs is that they are not revolutionary and even unions that think they are revolutionary are not the right sort of organisation to make a communist revolution. Most trade unionists would agree, of course, but then as I expect you've noticed most workers (in or out of TUs) are not about to make a communist revolution.

 

[118118]

Even without trade-unions?

 

[Alfredo]

Yes, of course there has been a development of the productive forces since 1914. The point is that this development takes on forms which are more and more antithetical to the needs of humanity. Consider the amount of social wealth and scientific research devoted to endless cycles of war and destruction, while millions of people are undernourished; or the terrible ravages the accumulation of capital inflicts on the natural environment. These phenomena alone are enough to conclude that capitalism has outlived its usefulness. In his day, Marx considered that capitalism was laying the basis for a higher form of society and so could still play a progressive role (up to a point....). Almost a hundred years after the first world war, it is surely evident that capitalist development is no longer helping to prepare the ground for a higher form of social organisation, but is becoming a growing threat to the very survival of humanity. This has got nothing to do with some wooly speculation about how much better capitalism could have been if it wasn't decadent and everything to do with showing that the perspective we face is indeed communism or barbarism.


On the trade unions, one point: we have never accused them of not being revolutionary. They were never revolutionary, but they did once defend the basic interests of the working class. Today workers can only defend these interests by breaking out of the union prison. The issue of individual workers being members of unions is secondary - the key question is the need for collective action outside and against the stultifying union framework.

 

[118118]

Anyone going to this shindig??

 

[treelover]

Yeah, its only the far lefts hard nosed materialism that stops many of them thinking they have a direct line to their beloved bearded one and talking to him!

118118.I see you very much in the running to be a new marx....Not that there is anything with the old one, as you probably know...I mean lets face it you probably talk to him more than me..

 

[JHE]

Anyone going to this shindig??

Bit late now, 118. It's well past the 20th Jan. Never mind. There'll be another one along soon.

Check out the other left-comm grouplets too, though. The International Communist Sultana is not the only dried fruit in the shop.

 

[Alfredo]

You're so right, JHE. And dried fruit is so good for the digestion.


The working class is a class of immigrants

Saturday 10th of February at 2.30 pm

Friends Meeting House
Mount Street,
off Albert Square
Central Manchester

Next forum in London - 17 March

 

[Blagsta]

I have considered that and have come to the conclusion that Marxism as practiced is just another form of dictatorship. Look at how those countries that called themselve Peoples Democratic Republic were neither for the people, democratic or a republic.

I believe that there is a future for a progressive co-operative society but to get to this Marx must be thrown away and a new theory put in its place.

Marx was writing at a very specific time with rapid industrialisation of formerly agrarian societies with limited communications and only the begginings of mass transport.

What applied to the milltowns of Lancashire or early German industry doesn't apply today.

Marxism reduced humanity to mere cogs in a machine and that is what partially caused it to fall. Maybe things would have been different if the revolution succeeded in an industrial country rather than a backward uneducated racist peasant country like Russia. I'm sure that the character of Russia itself affected how Marxism was implemented. Becuase of Russian political power this affectged how other Marxist operations proceeded elsewhere.

No I don't buy the 'but its a capitalist conspiracy against Marxism' line. No doubt there is some truth in that to a certian extent but it isn't the full story.

Marxism was shit for a lot of the people who lived under it and they couldn't wait to get rid of it. Unfortunately what has replaced it isn't much better.

You're on about Marxist-Leninism, surely? Marx's analysis of commodity and capital was pretty much spot on IMO.

 

[118118]

Come-on someone else go. You'll get to meet 118118 - the biggest k dealer in England. I swear!

We can talk about unions!

I might not go anyway. But the ICC do write good books don't they.

 

[118118]

I might not go anyway. But the ICC do write good books don't they.

Can't make Manchester or London I'm afraid Alfredo. Uni work.

 

[JHE]

You had better turn up, 118. Otherwise, the nutter with the hammer comes round to your house...