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ICC meeting on the international class struggle, London, 14 July

I don't know if the International Communist Sultana is a cult, but it is certainly a sect.

Attica's vehemence against the International Communist Sultana is odd. Has the sect done him down in some way? Not that I know of. He's been expelled from and shunned by the Anarchist groups he's been in, but I don't think he's ever been in any 'left communist' group.

I reckon he's just another would-be leader of world revolution irked by others who would usurp his role.

Hail Doctor Attica, Theorist of Praxis!

JHE:

1.Sultanas are extremely good for your health

2. Is a 'sect' an improvement on a 'cult'?

3. I personally don't know who Attica is and don't know what his "personal experience" of the ICC is. Obviously we have done something to upset him. Perhaps he could elaborate?
 
Alfredo said:
we're "less bonkers"? Praise indeed. What's your idea of effective political activity?
Click to expand...

Well you have no proactical class struggle politics do you? You never call events, and if you did nobody would come. Are you effective then? no. It doesn't take a genius to work that one out.
 
Alfredo said:
Although the question was posed to JHE, what do you mean by "practical class struggle politics"?
Click to expand...

blub blub - didn't like the answer did you.:)

You tell us what practical class struggle politics is - i suggest it starts with class struggle, cos without struggle there is no change...:p
 
Alfredo said:
You can check out our politics on our website. (http://www.internationalism.org/) I know nothing at all about yours.
Click to expand...

Ho Ho - that site tells you all you need to know.

You (ICC) are an hierarchical elite, with no relationship with the masses, you can tell by the complete lack of humour on your site - you cannot bore people into revolution you know. Your holy grail cult like presentation entails a 'swallow the lot and become an addict' approach.
 
OK, I've had a quick look at Attica's mag. I'm sure I could find a good deal in it that I agree with, but probably a lot more that I disagree with. However, I'm not going to weigh in with all the disagreements; but one section, in the article on anti-fascism, caught my attention because it seemed to show such a basic misconception of left communist politics. It's true that we think that anti-fascism is a dangerous dead-end, but when you claim that left communists "assume an automatic homogeneity is produced by capital", that we see the development of class consciousness as an "automatic and inevitable" process, and that against this you pose the notion that "the working class through self-management of the day-to day struggle rises in capabilty towards the revolutionary conflict", you are completely missing the target.

We certainly don't see that capital automatically and inevitably homogenises the working class. If that were the case, for one thing, there would be no point in forming a revolutionary political organisation, which is necessary precisely because class consciousness develops in anything but an automatic, homogeneous and inevitable way.

Secondly, we agree entirely that it's through "self-management" (although we prefer "self-organisation") of the immediate struggle that the working class develops the capacity for a revolutionary struggle.

The question is then posed: how do revolutionaries help take this process forward? As you no doubt know, when the ICC participates in workers' struggles, whether as individual workers at their workplace or as an organisation, we always emphasie the need for workers to take direct control of the struggle through mass meetings, elected strike committees, etc; in practise this means a confrontation with the trade unions who have become obstacles to the "self-management" and extension of the struggle.

Where do you stand on this very practical question?
 
Alfredo said:
As you no doubt know, when the ICC participates in workers' struggles, whether as individual workers at their workplace or as an organisation, we always emphasie the need for workers to take direct control of the struggle through mass meetings, elected strike committees, etc; in practise this means a confrontation with the trade unions who have become obstacles to the "self-management" and extension of the struggle.
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity, when you do this as individuals, exactly how do you do it? Do you (for instance) just call a meeting of your workmates and try to set up a committee there and then? Or do you take a less direct approach?
 
It depends on a number of factors, in particular, how much active support you are liable to get. In a situation where there is a fairly widespread discontent with the way the unions are running a strike, it has been possible for our comrades to initiate/take part in the formation of action groups/struggle committees which can then have a bigger impact than just one individual advocating a general assembly. In the 80s I was involved in such a group at my workplace and this was a fairly common experience in other sections of the ICC. In other struggles where I was more isolated I took whatever opportunities there were to say that we needed to meet as a united workforce and not just in separate union groups - eg speaking at a Unison meeting even though I am not a member, or distributing a leaflet to workmates.
As soon as you have two or three people with some ideas in common, it's possible to organise a small scale meeting to discuss what to do, but it's important not to confuse this with a general assembly or present yourselves as representatives of the workforce.
In some countries (and in some sectors in the UK, like the post) there is a much stronger tradition of calling general assemblies/mass meetings, even if the unions generally remain in control of them. Then the problem is less how to get a meeting organised than what to say in the assembly and how to argue for it to adopt real class struggle methods, which include taking control of the assembly from the union machinery.
 
Beltov said:
BTW, that link is to a pdf of the MayDay magazine, to which the Platypus group from Chicago actually responded. In the interest of debate, the latter seem to actually have taken the trouble to scan the whole Mayday magazine and make it available on their own site, which is laudable. So, Mayday and Platypus aren't the same.

:)

B.
Click to expand...

FFS 6 posts in 3 years and that is one of them. Why do you bother?
 
Alfredo said:
OK, I've had a quick look at Attica's mag. I'm sure I could find a good deal in it that I agree with, but probably a lot more that I disagree with. However, I'm not going to weigh in with all the disagreements; but one section, in the article on anti-fascism, caught my attention because it seemed to show such a basic misconception of left communist politics. It's true that we think that anti-fascism is a dangerous dead-end, but when you claim that left communists "assume an automatic homogeneity is produced by capital", that we see the development of class consciousness as an "automatic and inevitable" process, and that against this you pose the notion that "the working class through self-management of the day-to day struggle rises in capabilty towards the revolutionary conflict", you are completely missing the target.

We certainly don't see that capital automatically and inevitably homogenises the working class. If that were the case, for one thing, there would be no point in forming a revolutionary political organisation, which is necessary precisely because class consciousness develops in anything but an automatic, homogeneous and inevitable way.

Secondly, we agree entirely that it's through "self-management" (although we prefer "self-organisation") of the immediate struggle that the working class develops the capacity for a revolutionary struggle.

The question is then posed: how do revolutionaries help take this process forward? As you no doubt know, when the ICC participates in workers' struggles, whether as individual workers at their workplace or as an organisation, we always emphasie the need for workers to take direct control of the struggle through mass meetings, elected strike committees, etc; in practise this means a confrontation with the trade unions who have become obstacles to the "self-management" and extension of the struggle.

Where do you stand on this very practical question?
Click to expand...

Well done you completely failed to understand the point.

The point was that left communists ignore mass anti fascists politics because 'it is not pure enough for them', which opens the door for the very forces of reaction you say you are against. How do you square that contradiction? You've got no Hegelianism in your politics at all, no sense of journey or struggle, rather you impose ideals as a programme in a very innapropriate way, when reality has shown to be completely different to your schema.
 
I used to welcome the day when attica finally managed to read dunayevskaya. Little did i expect him to use it in such a shabby manner.

Honest.
 
butchersapron said:
I used to welcome the day when attica finally managed to read dunayevskaya. Little did i expect him to use it in such a shabby manner.

Honest.
Click to expand...

Interesting punt BA - but you lost your gamble. Not true. I read Dunayevskaya some considerable time ago.

The ultra left seriously need a kicking to wake them up - they've done the same boring repetitive crap for years and change nothing. No impact. No struggle. nothing. Why waste time with them? They are a reactionary cult like the scientologists. The SWp have more class struggle about them than the ICC - some waste their energy attacking the SWP all the time, i reserve my hatred for the ICC....:)
 
Eureka! Eureka!

Attica said:
The SWp have more class struggle about them than the ICC - some waste their energy attacking the SWP all the time...
Click to expand...

Brig, I've got it! I've finally got it! I know the way forward: Anarcho-Entrism!

You - yes, you, the Leader & Theorist - must infiltrate the Social Workers' Party and win as many of them as possible to the true path of praxis.
 
Well done you completely failed to understand the point.

No, I just didn't see the point of getting into a discussion about anti-fascism. I wanted to see whether we had anything in common when it comes to day-to-day workers' struggles.

But it seems that you have more in common with the SWP
 
Alfredo said:
Well done you completely failed to understand the point.

No, I just didn't see the point of getting into a discussion about anti-fascism. I wanted to see whether we had anything in common when it comes to day-to-day workers' struggles.

But it seems that you have more in common with the SWP
Click to expand...

No dipstick - you didn't get the point and still refuse to tackle political issues. Your avoidance of anti fascism leaves the political ground open for those whose politics ie fascists, you say you are against.

You have nothing in common with the working class or class consciousness - me I'm going to a trade union social this evening - UCATT. Working class people, real ones! Not the imaginary ones you pretend to have something in common with.

DO you know them? DO you even know what industry they are from? I doubt it. You certainly have nothing to say to people who fight the class struggle inside and outside of trade union structures. But then you have no understanding of Marxist dialectics either.:p
 
Wow, the 'I know more real workers than you' put-down.

There's just no come back to that. No doubt that's why the SWP use the same argument quite a bit to justify their todaying to the union bureaucracy.
 
Alfredo said:
Wow, the 'I know more real workers than you' put-down.

There's just no come back to that. No doubt that's why the SWP use the same argument quite a bit to justify their todaying to the union bureaucracy.
Click to expand...

It is a serious put down where people like you are concerned - you are outsiders to the working class movement.
 
All this thrilling repartee with Attica made me miss the fact that the date on the thread (though not the original post) was wrong - it was Saturday 12th July, not 14th July. So if Attica turns up for a fraternal debate with us this afternoon, I'm afraid we won't be there.
 
Alfredo said:
All this thrilling repartee with Attica made me miss the fact that the date on the thread (though not the original post) was wrong - it was Saturday 12th July, not 14th July. So if Attica turns up for a fraternal debate with us this afternoon, I'm afraid we won't be there.
Click to expand...

A cunning ploy to avoid the working class yet again!
 
Attica said:
A cunning ploy to avoid the working class yet again!
Click to expand...

No, the working class wasn't going anyway. Just to check, I phoned the world proletariat and she said she'd never heard of the meeting and, in any case, she was staying in to wash her hair.
 
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