I witnessed riot police assault 15 year old youths...

[lights.out.london]

You sure you got the tense right there, cunt?

The trouble with you d-b, is that you sound very reasonable for a copper. That's dangerous.

I believe I've seen you genuinely try to help and advise people on the forums.

The downside is you're a copper, I'm afraid. Your loyalty was bought when you got your warrant card. Although ...I'm sure you thought you were going to help folk and change the world for the better back when you were a young and idealistic d-b.

 

[The Black Hand]

You sure you got the tense right there, cunt?

Av you anytime twat - btw you left because you didn't want to get the boot for corruption. WANKER

 

[Wilf]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4thwrite
i'd ignore all the official complaint stuff.

Detective Boy: Why?

How the fuck do you expect the police to be policed if you are not willing to report what you see and consider to be improper? If you take that attitiude you are part of the problem, not the solution.

No-one seeing an incident like this knows the full story - what has gone before or whatever - but if it looks out of order, report it and the officers will be held to account. Do not, however, assume that just because it looked bad to you it could not be properly justified.

That all depends what you see the role of the police complaints procedure to be. To me, its about legitimising police power by setting in place a 'procedure', which gives the veneer of accountability. Does nothing to alter fundamental relationships and, as seen in this thread, does little to affect the policing of working class kids.

 

[detective-boy]

To me, its about legitimising police power by setting in place a 'procedure', which gives the veneer of accountability.

Ok, smartarse ... how DO you get accountability then, if you don't have any process by which you, er, ask them to account for themselves ...
Or are you one of the naive fools who thinks that the police are entirely unnecessary because no bad people actually exist and we'd all get along all fine and dandy if only those nasty police officers fucked off ...

 

[The Black Hand]

Ok, smartarse ... how DO you get accountability then, if you don't have any process by which you, er, ask them to account for themselves ...
Or are you one of the naive fools who thinks that the police are entirely unnecessary because no bad people actually exist and we'd all get along all fine and dandy if only those nasty police officers fucked off ...

That too is a pipe dream wanker BTW police are historically new, the Met police 1828 wasn't it... how did people survive without the police? he he he Anthropologically speaking by using methods of dispute resolution that didn't involve a power outside of the community concerned

 

[agricola]

That too is a pipe dream wanker BTW police are historically new, the Met police 1828 wasn't it... how did people survive without the police? he he he Anthropologically speaking by using methods of dispute resolution that didn't involve a power outside of the community concerned

No offence, but if you start claiming things are pipe dreams you could at least take your own advice.

I could have sworn that "dispute resolution" before 1828 meant executing people for a wide variety of offences, and transporting the rest (after a trial lasting, if it was very complicated, until just before lunch); even "anthropologically speaking" people who dissent from the community usually end up expelled for it or physically chastised to a greater or lesser extent.

 

[detective-boy]

That too is a pipe dream wanker BTW police are historically new, the Met police 1828 wasn't it... how did people survive without the police? he he he Anthropologically speaking by using methods of dispute resolution that didn't involve a power outside of the community concerned

1. I thought you had had enough of me, cunt. I'd certainly prefer it that way.
2. It was 1829 (but accuracy is hardly a strength is it)
3. You never heard of Magistrates, Assizes, the King's Justices, Parish Constables, watchmen, etc., etc.? As long as we have lived in anything like modern society we have identified / employed someone to act as the operational arm of the law ...

 

[The Black Hand]

1. I thought you had had enough of me, cunt. I'd certainly prefer it that way.
2. It was 1829 (but accuracy is hardly a strength is it)
3. You never heard of Magistrates, Assizes, the King's Justices, Parish Constables, watchmen, etc., etc.? As long as we have lived in anything like modern society we have identified / employed someone to act as the operational arm of the law ...

1828/29 hardly significant enough to make a comment on eh wanker? Your blustering is getting ever more desperate...

You're talking about different things dogbreath - so your accuracy is non existent... The significance of the police is that they are a full time employee of the state to administer capitalist law, and will disappear with new social relationships. And not before time. This is not to say that there won't be methods of dispute resolution....

 

[Luther Blissett]

1828/29 hardly significant enough to make a comment on eh wanker? Your blustering is getting ever more desperate...

You're talking about different things dogbreath - so your accuracy is non existent... The significance of the police is that they are a full time employee of the state to administer capitalist law, and will disappear with new social relationships. And not before time. This is not to say that there won't be methods of dispute resolution....

You and whose fucking army are going to implement this autonomous marxist utopia?

What if, by consensus, the people in each community decide they quite like having some semblance of community policing force? Your vision falls to pieces then, doesn't it?! Replace one system with another and give it a new name does not a revolution make. I really can't see these 'new social relationships' appearing anytime while you're throwing comments like 'dogbreath' at an ex-copper, can you? If we're all equal, then why isn't this ex-copper also your equal?

 

[Wilf]

Ok, smartarse ... how DO you get accountability then, if you don't have any process by which you, er, ask them to account for themselves ...
Or are you one of the naive fools who thinks that the police are entirely unnecessary because no bad people actually exist and we'd all get along all fine and dandy if only those nasty police officers fucked off ...

As i don't support the police, why should i be interested in providing them with the badge of 'accountability'?

 

[paolo]

I tell you what's sick and twisted: a group of bullyboy coppers assaulting two teenage boys.

The cops getting a pasting from two sets of bitter-rival footie fans is something along the lines of Lex Talionis. That I enjoy some kind of schadenfreude is just how it is (was). Toughen up.

IME cops are great in uniform, when they can hide behind their warrant cards. Not so big and fucking brave one-on-one.

A copper is a copper is a class traitor. Fuck em.

Do you mean it should be "every man for himself" (i.e. no police, defend in personal arms) or that there is a better way of policing?

 

[detective-boy]

As i don't support the police, why should i be interested in providing them with the badge of 'accountability'?

So (b) then ...

 

[detective-boy]

Do you mean it should be "every man for himself" (i.e. no police, defend in personal arms) or that there is a better way of policing?

I've yet to find any realistic alternative offered - most take the 4thwrite approach:

1. Criticise ...
2. ... er ...
3. ... that's about it, really.

 

[Wilf]

I've yet to find any realistic alternative offered - most take the 4thwrite approach:

1. Criticise ...
2. ... er ...
3. ... that's about it, really.

Look, sunshine, i'm merely trying to point out that terms like 'police accountability' are essentially ideological - part of a political discourse. To be able to present something as 'accountable' is to increase its apparent validity. Associated complaint procedures may well be the result of public/campaigning pressures - for example the appearance of the IPCC. As such, they will have some (marginal) impact on the actual interaction between the police and public. However that's not what these structures and procedures are ultimately about - they play an ideological role. The notion that the police are 'accountable' - and that the power they wield over individuals and groups is valid/reasonably exercised - these are the things that IPCC are really about reinforcing.

As to all your rolleyes stuff along the lines of 'so what would you do': its almost innevitable in a society that centralises power and supports certain social/power relations that there will be something like the present police. If you have a centralised state, the police will be part of that. It would be absurd and utopian to suggest that policing could be taken out of that - it has a role to play. There might be things that people can do at the local level to take back a bit of that control (IWCA proposals for example) but, ultimately, the kind of society determines the kind of policing you get. People will resist current forms of policing and there will be debates around the relationship of police forces to communities - but ultimately capitalism shapes policing structures.

If we had a different kind of society there would be the possiblity of a real debates about communities and the way they might protect thmeselves. What that might be is not something you can reasonably predict.

 

[lights.out.london]

Do you mean it should be "every man for himself" (i.e. no police, defend in personal arms) or that there is a better way of policing?

There isn't anything in what I've written which could lead you to draw the conclusion that I advocate "every man for himself", or no police service.

 

[detective-boy]

its almost innevitable in a society that centralises power and supports certain social/power relations that there will be something like the present police. If you have a centralised state, the police will be part of that. It would be absurd and utopian to suggest that policing could be taken out of that - it has a role to play.

OK. So how would you make it more accountable - I'm assuming you think accountable is better than unaccountable? Or have you some other model? How about answering the question rather than restating your position, "sunshine"?

 

[Wilf]

OK. So how would you make it more accountable - I'm assuming you think accountable is better than unaccountable? Or have you some other model? How about answering the question rather than restating your position, "sunshine"?

*bangs head*

Given my last post - particularly the first paragraph - why would i want to make the police more 'accountable'?

*bangs head again, just to make sure*

 

[detective-boy]

*bangs head*

So what the fuck does the bit that I quoted mean?

If you actually had a coherent position, and if you actually stated what you DID think should be the case instead of just slagging off what you didn't, maybe people wouldn't misunderstand what the fuck you were on about.

 

[Wilf]

So what the fuck does the bit that I quoted mean?

If you actually had a coherent position, and if you actually stated what you DID think should be the case instead of just slagging off what you didn't, maybe people wouldn't misunderstand what the fuck you were on about.

in the piece you quoted i was suggesting that the form society takes has a very strong influence on the nature of its policing system. Policing is an aspect of the state - and innevitably carries out functions for that state and powers that it represents (as well as taking a role in forms of social protectioin).. yadda yadda. Given all that - whatever complaints systems and 'accountability' are put in place - there are always going to be other imperatives pressurising the police to act in certain ways and in defence of certain interests. As a result, whilst I don't like the form our society takes or the things the police force does, i find it illogical to argue that the police should be open, accountable, responsive etc. Its a liberal fallacy to suggest institutions are neutral and can be reshaped by good intentions.

To be honest - relating to some of Attica's posts on this thread - i've no objection to people highlighting where the police stray outside of the laws in which they are supposed ot operate. I just object to the notion that there's ultimately a liberal model of policing available within an illiberal state.

 

[paolo]

There isn't anything in what I've written which could lead you to draw the conclusion that I advocate "every man for himself", or no police service.

By inference then, I assume you do believe there should a police service.

 

[lights.out.london]

By inference then, I assume you do believe there should a police service.

Assume what you will.

 

[paolo]

Assume what you will.

Why do you want to hide your opinion on this?