I witnessed riot police assault 15 year old youths...

[untethered]

So you're categorically excluding the possibility that the police ever give someone a kicking because they enjoy it?

Sometimes, and there are perfectly good procedures to reform those officers whose high spirits occasionally get the better of them.

This doesn't seem to be one of those cases.

 

[Dubversion]

how true is it that ex-Met cops find it difficult to get posts outside the Met?

 

[nosos]

Sometimes, and there are perfectly good procedures to reform those officers whose high spirits occasionally get the better of them.

'high spirits' & 'reform'

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Easy peeps,

Hope you're doing well. I'm looking for some knowledge and advice about what to do after witnessing a group of riot police rushing into the yard of a youth club and physically assaulting two fifteen year old lads before dragging them away in their riot vans, completely unprovoked.

I've witnessed coppers abusing their power on adults a handful of times in the past but this instance has really shocked me.

I work for a youth work charity in Derby and every Friday night we put on a night for under 18's. It's in a community centre with a car park, which some of the youngsters play football in. On Friday night just gone, we were playing football, out of the way of the street, within the grounds of the community centre, when a riot van pulled up and 4 riot police, fully geared up, stormed into the car park.

One of the cops headed straight towards a 15 year old lad who was backing away towards a fence. The copper grabbed him by the face, squeezing the lads jaw in his hand and slammed him against the fence. The lad called him a "fucking pig" and spat in his face which led to the copper slamming him against the fence again, no words yet spoken from the copper, before slamming him on the floor and kneeling on his throat before handcuffing him up and dragging him in to the riot van.

As this was happening the lads younger brother was shouting, in tears, telling the copper to let go of his brother. As soon as he started to make a scene two other riot cops rushed him, grabbing him around the neck and bringing him to the floor, kneeling on his throat and cuffing him before chucking him in the back of the van.

There were no rights read out, very few words said at all, just a great deal of violence and intimidation. There were children crying and screaming and I, personally, felt completely powerless. All I could do was take down the odd number that was on display and express my disgust to the coppers involved.

There were about 30 witnesses the only problem is that they're all 18 yrs old and younger. Apart from that I saw the whole thing and was a few feet from the entire incident alongside my work friend Carla.

What should we do?

It was truly the most vicious display of excessive force that I think I've seen in a very long time.

Any help or advice would be gratefully recieved.

Peace and progress

Jonezy x

So why did they batter the lad then? I presume it wasn't just a random attack?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

So why did they batter the lad then? I presume it wasn't just a random attack?

whether it was a random attack or not, why did they attack him rather than just arrest him for alleged offences?

 

[Giles]

Why did they want to arrest him? What is he suppsoed to have done?

Giles..

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Why did they want to arrest him? What is he suppsoed to have done?

Giles..

whether they had a good reason to arrest him (perhaps they had), is that how a great burly officer meant to act against a kid?

 

[fencingmatt]

I don't really know what exactly you should do or who you should tell but you really should do something. And the fact that the witnesses were under 18 shouldn't mean anything at all, they have eyes and they saw what happened and that's 30 people who can give evidence. Those cops shouldn't be able to get away with that.

 

[TAE]

I would certainly report it. If nothing else, it might be the same officers who get accused again and again, leading to some questions being asked eventually.

 

[Jonezy]

Sorry for taking a while to reply.

The youths in question were being arrested for threatening to rape a female officer. So, apparently, according to the police, they'd over heard the lads in question stating previously that he was going to rape a female officer. This is why they rushed into the youth club premises and physically assaulted the lad. His brother protests, gets assaulted and arrested.

The charity I work for, Enthusiasm.org.uk, is behind myself and my colleague Carla and we've put together a report of what happened on the night. I think we're also attending a meeting next week with the coppers involved.

Thanks for all of your insights and advice, deeply appreciated.

Jonezy x

 

[lostexpectation]

Sorry for taking a while to reply.

The youths in question were being arrested for threatening to rape a female officer. So, apparently, according to the police, they'd over heard the lads in question stating previously that he was going to rape a female officer. This is why they rushed into the youth club premises and physically assaulted the lad. His brother protests, gets assaulted and arrested.

The charity I work for, Enthusiasm.org.uk, is behind myself and my colleague Carla and we've put together a report of what happened on the night. I think we're also attending a meeting next week with the coppers involved.

Thanks for all of your insights and advice, deeply appreciated.

Jonezy x

well that a pretty horrible thing to say, but how did they overhear it? did they say to the female police officer face in a confrontation? Then I would have expected them to be arrested then? when did they say and what happened to them?

 

[agricola]

how true is it that ex-Met cops find it difficult to get posts outside the Met?

not true at all, indeed most of the Met's wastage of people pre-retirement is to other forces (who save the costs of training their own officers).

Sorry for taking a while to reply.

The youths in question were being arrested for threatening to rape a female officer. So, apparently, according to the police, they'd over heard the lads in question stating previously that he was going to rape a female officer. This is why they rushed into the youth club premises and physically assaulted the lad. His brother protests, gets assaulted and arrested.

The charity I work for, Enthusiasm.org.uk, is behind myself and my colleague Carla and we've put together a report of what happened on the night. I think we're also attending a meeting next week with the coppers involved.

Thanks for all of your insights and advice, deeply appreciated.

Jonezy x

Which seems a common sense way of trying to resolve this.

 

[dash_two]

a group of riot police rushing into the yard of a youth club and physically assaulting two fifteen year old lads before dragging them away in their riot vans, completely unprovoked.

The youths in question were being arrested for threatening to rape a female officer.

The lad called him a "fucking pig" and spat in his face

Now this is stretching the definition of 'completely unprovoked'.

 

[Jonezy]

Apologies for being unclear.

The initial act of aggression was performed by the police officer and after having been forced against the fence by the police officer who was squeezing the lads face, the lad proceeded to swear at the copper and spit in his face. In this instance it was the officer who provoked the lad and not the other way round.

The lad apparently threatened the female officer face to face saying that he was going to rape her.

As far as I'm concerned that's out of order. All you have to do is chat to any of these youths about the way they feel about the police and why and you'll learn pretty quickly that the police dig their own grave round their parts and are constantly fucking up community relations by being unfair, disrespectful, unproffessional, aggressive and antagonistic towards the youth.

Even if the lad had raped a female officer he would at the very least deserve a trial. There's no excusing that manner of conduct by the police.

Who the fucks supposed to be protecting us from them?

 

[Loupylou]

well that a pretty horrible thing to say, but how did they overhear it? did they say to the female police officer face in a confrontation? Then I would have expected them to be arrested then? when did they say and what happened to them?

i agree - if it had been 'overheard' then surely they would have been arrested for it. It's really unlikely that if this was a genuinely held belief that the police would have completely fucked up their own case by assaulting the suspects. and then this info is bandied about ?? sounds like bollox to me. By using something such as an allegation of conspiring to rape a female officer, the brave knights in shining riot gear are able to present themselves as rescuers & also try to get the public on their side, it just sounds like rubbish, just all a bit too convenient & smacks of manipulation. even if it were true, it DOES NOT give the police the right to assault the suspect.

untethered's veiws show a complete lack of understanding or even awareness of how the police (as a generalisation obviously) 'deal with' & veiw young working class people esp. boys, who are veiwed as 'scum'. On the estate I used to live on, it was open season. They would occasionally assault them (& sometimes adults) & take them to the police stn without an appropriate adult present, & without telling their distraut parents where they were. All illegal but they can do what the fuck they like. Same as where I grew up - the police would have it in for someone & beat them up whenever they saw them on the street. The person would usually be a petty criminal that they couldn't catch. Or someone with a past history of ciminal activity. then they can get away with it because there are plenty of people like untethered about who will put forward the veiw that they deserve it.

1/2 of new recruits are middle-class people from the Home Counties who haven't got a clue about life (I mean they really haven't got a clue). How do I know this? becuase I know someone who trains the police recruits
at Hendon in how to deal with young people & about racial awareness. yeah , sure, most of them join up to 'help' people, but there's a sizeable minority who are bullies & are attracted by the power & the abilty to find a niche for themselves. Then many of the others get sent to work with jaded cynical bastards & a few weeks on duty & they'll have picked up all the crappy working practices & attitudes.

(Personally I don't think that anyone should be allowed to go in the police force until they've seen a bit of the world /life. How can you it be right to recruit 17 year olds?!)

there has been the judgment after the Stephen Lawrence enquiry that the police force is institutionally racist as well, (NEWSFLASH!)

& many cases of assault & murder by the police, which they regularly get away with & always have done. This is not to detract from the sometimes excellent work done by some police men & women every day, but let's face it, there are plenty of bullies in the police - I mean they even bully eachother - police women suffer the highest rate of sexual harassment by colleagues than any other profession.

It is disturbing how a person can read the post & put a response with such a high level of denial as to what is actually assualt & what is reasonable force. OK, none of us were there apart from jonezy, so we're only giving responses as to what happened on face value, but obviously it suits untethered to minimise & rationalise this incident. There are certain procedures that have to be followed on approaching members of the public, & steaming into them like has been described isn't one of them. The ONLY reason for behaving so aggressively was to provoke an aggressive reaction, this is NOT normal behaviour & shows an inabilty to do their job properly, i.e. avoid conflict if at all possible & keep the situation calm.

i'm not sure that all Courts would not consider the provocation by the police which caused the spitting, that would depend on the judge. so you're right, people aren't meant to be gobbing at the police, but then the police aren't meant to exerting this level of force, & you need to look at what came first. It's strange that untethered is choosing to place the 2 things on the same level without considering who is in a position of authority & who did what first - it's not a scrap between 2 members of the public. I also find it strange that a person would be in that level of denial & excuse such behaviour. Maybe where untetherd grew up they never saw or knew about police bruatality - well you're lucky! but don't try rationalise it to those of us who've exprerienced it first & second-hand.

Also as to all the advice about going to the police station, I definitely would be very worried about doing that, certainly not on my own if in that situation.

 

[Loupylou]

The lad apparently threatened the female officer face to face saying that he was going to rape her.

and we're meant to be trusting the word of police officers who behave like that? (if that's where the info came from?)

As SOON as the lad said this, he would be nicked immediately - NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

also I've just had another thought - I have many times seen, as have mates of mine, & ex-colleagues, etc, a funny (peculiar) dynamic between male & female coppers i.e the woman winding the men up to attack a suspect.
I believe that this stems from the horrendous work environment for women working in the police force which as I say, includes an extremely high level of sexual harassment. There could well be some sleazy dynamic at the bottom of this allegation - it just seems odd - if it were real the lad would have been arrested immediatley & also they would be a lot more careful in their handling of it so as to get a conviction.
As a woman, the worst i've ever been treated by police is by police women, & that is the experience of other women I know.

 

[dash_two]

. double post

 

[Loupylou]

The lad apparently threatened the female officer face to face saying that he was going to rape her.

........and - did she say / do anything to provoke that reaction?
police are in a position of authority & are not meant to take threats / verbal abuse personally.

 

[dash_two]

Apologies for being unclear.

The initial act of aggression was performed by the police officer and after having been forced against the fence by the police officer who was squeezing the lads face, the lad proceeded to swear at the copper and spit in his face. In this instance it was the officer who provoked the lad and not the other way round.

The lad apparently threatened the female officer face to face saying that he was going to rape her.

Fair enough Jonezy. I do consider spitting in someone's face to be a really disgusting thing, a lot worse than punching someone in the face, inexcusable whatever the circumstances.

However I am not clear from your account of whether the rape threat occurred before or during or after the youth was forced against the fence.

 

[Loupylou]

Fair enough Jonezy. However I am not clear from your account of whether the rape threat occurred before or during or after the youth was forced against the fence.

i gathered that the rape threat was the stall they'd laid out in order to justify assault, see post by Jonesy which says -
The youths in question were being arrested for threatening to rape a female officer. So, apparently, according to the police, they'd over heard the lads in question stating previously that he was going to rape a female officer. This is why they rushed into the youth club premises and physically assaulted the lad. His brother protests, gets assaulted and arrested.

will be interesting to hear what they've been charged with if anything at all

 

[dash_two]

Thanks Loupylou, guess my eyes need a drop of Optrex or something.

 

[Loupylou]

Fair enough Jonezy. I do consider spitting in someone's face to be a really disgusting thing, a lot worse than punching someone in the face, inexcusable whatever the circumstances.

.

I disagree - I personally believe that if you are assaulted them you have the right to retaliate with roughly the same degree of violence.

What is worse - retaliating when you are assaulted or misusing your authority by using violence in order to provoke a violent reaction?
the 2 things aren't the same.

I know what you mean about being spat at, but having been both smacked in the mouth and gobbed at in my face, I know which is more likely to cause real injury & which is a damn sight more painful.
I also don't believe spitting in someone's face is 'inexcusable in any circumstances', but then my veiws on violence aren't probably shared by many people on here.

 

[Loupylou]

Thanks Loupylou, guess my eyes need a drop of Optrex or something.

or wipe the gob out of them !
(only joking )

works for me.....

 

[untethered]

It's probably worth pointing out that none of us are in possession of the full facts of this incident or the incident in which the alleged offence occurred. Thus, it's hard to come to any definitive conclusions. Anyway...

i agree - if it had been 'overheard' then surely they would have been arrested for it. It's really unlikely that if this was a genuinely held belief that the police would have completely fucked up their own case by assaulting the suspects.

It wouldn't make any difference to the case against the suspects. As I understand it, the alleged offence happened previously.

and then this info is bandied about ?? sounds like bollox to me. By using something such as an allegation of conspiring to rape a female officer, the brave knights in shining riot gear are able to present themselves as rescuers & also try to get the public on their side, it just sounds like rubbish, just all a bit too convenient & smacks of manipulation. even if it were true, it DOES NOT give the police the right to assault the suspect.

Nothing gives the police a right to assault a suspect, but they are empowered to use reasonable force to effect an arrest. Such behaviour is not an assault, legally, because they are acting in accordance with their duty.

If it were not a police officer acting in this way then it would constitute assault. Context is everything.

untethered's veiws show a complete lack of understanding or even awareness of how the police (as a generalisation obviously) 'deal with' & veiw young working class people esp. boys, who are veiwed as 'scum'.

Based on how much you know about me?

I have witnessed, first hand, several incidents in which successful claims were subsequently brought against the police for assaults or injuries. I can assure you that this incident, if reported correctly, most definitely is not in that league.

On the estate I used to live on, it was open season. They would occasionally assault them (& sometimes adults) & take them to the police stn without an appropriate adult present, & without telling their distraut parents where they were. All illegal but they can do what the fuck they like. Same as where I grew up - the police would have it in for someone & beat them up whenever they saw them on the street. The person would usually be a petty criminal that they couldn't catch. Or someone with a past history of ciminal activity. then they can get away with it because there are plenty of people like untethered about who will put forward the veiw that they deserve it.

I never said that anyone "deserved" anything. I formed a judgement that the police were acting lawfully by not using unreasonable force to effect an arrest, according to my understanding of the law and how it's applied.

I don't believe I expressed an opinion on how the police should have acted or what the suspects "deserved".

(Personally I don't think that anyone should be allowed to go in the police force until they've seen a bit of the world /life. How can you it be right to recruit 17 year olds?!)

Maturity is the issue, not age. If you rejected potential recruits on the basis of age, that would be unfair discrimination. Many 18-year olds are perfectly competent and mature officers, many 40 year-olds would not be.

there has been the judgment after the Stephen Lawrence enquiry that the police force is institutionally racist as well, (NEWSFLASH!)

It might be news to you, but the Macpherson Report came out in 1999.

Is anyone alleging that there is a racial element to this case? I don't remember them doing so.

& many cases of assault & murder by the police, which they regularly get away with & always have done. This is not to detract from the sometimes excellent work done by some police men & women every day, but let's face it, there are plenty of bullies in the police - I mean they even bully eachother - police women suffer the highest rate of sexual harassment by colleagues than any other profession.

Does your sympathy for women in the police lead you to be relaxed about people threatening to rape them as they go about their duties? You seem to take the viewpoint that they should just take this on the chin as it's part and parcel of the job.

It is disturbing how a person can read the post & put a response with such a high level of denial as to what is actually assualt & what is reasonable force.

It's almost impossible to sustain a complaint of unreasonable force unless there are some injuries, preferably (if you follow me) relatively serious ones.

I know cases where bones have been broken and the arrest has been considered reasonable under the circumstances.

Really, by all means complain about this. (People have. Fine.) I just don't hold out much prospect of it getting anywhere.

Many arrests require some degree of force and in nearly all those cases, the suspect isn't happy with the matter and it might look bad to witnesses, who are generally not used to seeing anyone removed by the police against their will. However, the bar has to be set pretty high on what constitutes unreasonable force, otherwise almost every contentious arrest would generate a substantiated complaint. That wouldn't be in the interests of the public or anyone else.

OK, none of us were there apart from jonezy, so we're only giving responses as to what happened on face value, but obviously it suits untethered to minimise & rationalise this incident. There are certain procedures that have to be followed on approaching members of the public, & steaming into them like has been described isn't one of them.

When someone has threatened a serious violent offence against an officer, police procedure generally does recommend something broadly similar to what has been described.

The ONLY reason for behaving so aggressively was to provoke an aggressive reaction, this is NOT normal behaviour & shows an inabilty to do their job properly, i.e. avoid conflict if at all possible & keep the situation calm.

Inferring people's motives is generally unwise, particularly when you only have very partial information about what happened.

i'm not sure that all Courts would not consider the provocation by the police which caused the spitting, that would depend on the judge. so you're right, people aren't meant to be gobbing at the police, but then the police aren't meant to exerting this level of force, & you need to look at what came first. It's strange that untethered is choosing to place the 2 things on the same level without considering who is in a position of authority & who did what first - it's not a scrap between 2 members of the public.

Very true. Police officers are empowered (in fact, obliged) to use force where reasonable. Members of the public generally aren't. Most certainly not when they're being arrested.

I also find it strange that a person would be in that level of denial & excuse such behaviour. Maybe where untetherd grew up they never saw or knew about police bruatality - well you're lucky! but don't try rationalise it to those of us who've exprerienced it first & second-hand.

See my comments above. Don't make assumptions about what my experience is.

Also as to all the advice about going to the police station, I definitely would be very worried about doing that, certainly not on my own if in that situation.

Sheer paranoia.

 

[untethered]

........and - did she say / do anything to provoke that reaction?
police are in a position of authority & are not meant to take threats / verbal abuse personally.

Under what circumstances do you think it's justifiable to threaten to rape anyone, police officer or not?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Sometimes, and there are perfectly good procedures to reform those officers whose high spirits occasionally get the better of them.

This doesn't seem to be one of those cases.

Out of curiosity, what planet do you live on?

 

[agricola]

........and - did she say / do anything to provoke that reaction?
police are in a position of authority & are not meant to take threats / verbal abuse personally.

As untethered has noted, I do find it strange that here of all places that the infamous "But did she do anything to provoke it?" argument has been used.

As for "you are not meant to take threats / verbal abuse personally", fortunately that is nonsense, as most magistrates and crown courts will confirm - albeit there are a few who (sadly) think as you do.

 

[detective-boy]

i'd ignore all the official complaint stuff.

Why?

How the fuck do you expect the police to be policed if you are not willing to report what you see and consider to be improper? If you take that attitiude you are part of the problem, not the solution.

No-one seeing an incident like this knows the full story - what has gone before or whatever - but if it looks out of order, report it and the officers will be held to account. Do not, however, assume that just because it looked bad to you it could not be properly justified.

 

[The Black Hand]

Why?

How the fuck do you expect the police to be policed if you are not willing to report what you see and consider to be improper? If you take that attitiude you are part of the problem, not the solution.

No-one seeing an incident like this knows the full story - what has gone before or whatever - but if it looks out of order, report it and the officers will be held to account. Do not, however, assume that just because it looked bad to you it could not be properly justified.

An illegal arrest is an illegal arrest pal, too much violence/force etc...

 

[guinnessdrinker]

it sums it, really.

assuming that the facts are true, as a man, a brother, a father, a hubby/partner, a son or a geyser from the local pub, I would want to do exactly the as as the piggy did. I would want to be a very good vigilante whenever I would ever heard about these things. but mr piggy represents the powers that tell us what to do and should really behave, as far as I am concerned.

[stops the anarchy stuff till I get sober]