I Was Born There, So it's my Home

[CyberRose]

I would not dream of trying to live in France without learning french.

Eh? What's wrong with speaking English loudly and slowly so even a French waiter could understand what you were trying to say? They can all speak English abroad anyway (and if they don't that shows a severe failing in that country's education system)

 

[weltweit]

... (Rich) Western countries need the 'assistance' of poor third world countries to make cheap products like clothes or electronics or provide services. If all countries were the same (ie labour cost the same) then those cheap products would not be cheap at all and the multinationals would not be able to make as much money off them. There needs to be x amount of poor countries for the Western nations to fleece otherwise our economic system simply would not work

That is a very cynical view and I am sure I disagree with it.

Some manufacturing will always seek low labour costs because it has been left as labour intensive, it is such jobs that presently move to China etc .. however they will stay there only as long as labour rates stay low, then when they start not to they will move probably to Africa.

That is not however the whole story. A vast amount of manufacturing still takes place in Germany because they have embraced factory automation which implies fewer but better paid factory workers / engineers and still produces low cost products to rival those coming out of China.

Factory automation works well where the cost of capital is low, hence Germany and also the UK are suitable for this. Why Britain has not followed Germany as much into automation. Well Britain has just forgotten about manufacturing it seems to me, is a mystery. But look at the small and middle sized enterprises in Germany and you can see how things could be here.

 

[JWH]

immigrant lions out

both sides seem to think that the immigrants are getting the lion's share of the jobs for whatever reason

Bloody right, and it's an outrage. Won't someone stand up for honest English lions that just want to do a decent day's work for decent day's pay? But noooooo, employers would rather give the lion's share of the jobs to bloody immigrants along with free flats and BMWs and Sky+.

And you're paying for it!

 

[Gmart]

Wow, another thread where GMart demands that the meaning of a word be changed in conformity with his beliefs.
How surprising.

Are you suggesting that the word 'indigenous' has a reasonable meaning - and are you going to share this with us? Or snipe meaninglessly from the sidelines? I suspect the latter...

There was I thinking that border controls, for the greater part of European history, "suggested" that the ruling classes were far more concerned about levying and collecting taxes on imports and exports than about "suggesting" that the various peoples of differing European countries had lesser or greater intrinsic or extrinsic worth.
Still, perhaps history is wrong, eh?

Are you suggesting that having borders is not intrinsically racist? Thought not. And so are you suggesting that we should not have borders of any kind, consistent with your stance against racism? Thought not...

It may well be, but it's a poor argument because it creates as many problems as it deals with.

Such as? What problems might it create? The restriction of the current practice that governments have of preventing people from claiming citizenship even if they were born in that country?...

What 'case' needs making? Borders are arbitrary and foster inequality. Governments do the same. I don't give a toss about 'electoral suicide', I'm entirely uninterested in the survival of the political status quo.

Funny how you seem keen to take such a principled stand here against borders despite the obvious practical problems and yet when I take a principled stand against the spelling system of English despite the obvious practical problems of reform there you spend much time and effort abusing me.

Ah! of course, you are a crowd follower, who is only interested in his own original thoughts rather than those of others - while refusing to practice tolerance - Nice!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I think America and Germany have language proficiency as a requirement of citizenship, I don't know if we do but I think we should.

I would not dream of trying to live in France without learning french.

I don't think they test language per se, but to take the citizenship test, you have to understand the english that the test is written in.

This apparently is an example. I got 100 You only need 60 to pass.

http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=uscis-citizenship-test-revised-test-in-2008

 

[Lo Siento.]

Bloody right, and it's an outrage. Won't someone stand up for honest English lions that just want to do a decent day's work for decent day's pay? But noooooo, employers would rather give the lion's share of the jobs to bloody immigrants along with free flats and BMWs and Sky+.

And you're paying for it!

errrr... the job thing is true statistically, isn´t it? Or at least was prior to the recession kicking in.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Bloody right, and it's an outrage. Won't someone stand up for honest English lions that just want to do a decent day's work for decent day's pay? But noooooo, employers would rather give the lion's share of the jobs to bloody immigrants along with free flats and BMWs and Sky+.

And you're paying for it!

The jobs thing is true though, isn´t it? Statistically the majority of new jobs, certainly prior to the recession were going to 1st generation migrants.

 

[RaverDrew]

Are you suggesting that the word 'indigenous' has a reasonable meaning - and are you going to share this with us? Or snipe meaninglessly from the sidelines? I suspect the latter...



Are you suggesting that having borders is not intrinsically racist? Thought not. And so are you suggesting that we should not have borders of any kind, consistent with your stance against racism? Thought not...



Such as? What problems might it create? The restriction of the current practice that governments have of preventing people from claiming citizenship even if they were born in that country?...



Funny how you seem keen to take such a principled stand here against borders despite the obvious practical problems and yet when I take a principled stand against the spelling system of English despite the obvious practical problems of reform there you spend much time and effort abusing me.

Ah! of course, you are a crowd follower, who is only interested in his own original thoughts rather than those of others - while refusing to practice tolerance - Nice!

I think your the most vile cunt I've come across in a long time, I'd happily see anyone with your kind of views bleed to death slowly.

 

[Corax]

Funny how you seem keen to take such a principled stand here against borders despite the obvious practical problems and yet when I take a principled stand against the spelling system of English despite the obvious practical problems of reform there you spend much time and effort abusing me.

Ah! of course, you are a crowd follower, who is only interested in his own original thoughts rather than those of others - while refusing to practice tolerance - Nice!

Hey Frodo, consider this: If everyone reacts to you the same way, perhaps the problem is you, not them.

 

[butchersapron]

Funny how you seem keen to take such a principled stand here against borders despite the obvious practical problems and yet when I take a principled stand against the spelling system of English despite the obvious practical problems of reform there you spend much time and effort abusing me.

Ah! of course, you are a crowd follower, who is only interested in his own original thoughts rather than those of others - while refusing to practice tolerance - Nice!

This idiocy means that you support all proposals ever, no matter what the content, contradictory or whatever.

 

[butchersapron]

Are you suggesting <snip>



Are you suggesting<snip>

Two in one post! The fabled double header! What a dishonest bastard.

 

[spring-peeper]

I think America and Germany have language proficiency as a requirement of citizenship, I don't know if we do but I think we should.

I would not dream of trying to live in France without learning french.

Canada has the same, except you can choose between English and French.

I always thought that it was because the government needs to communicate with you, and will only do so in English or French.

I know several people who haven't taken the citizen test because they are afraid that their English isn't good enough and that they will be deported.

 

[butchersapron]

Funny how you seem keen to take such a principled stand here against borders despite the obvious practical problems and yet when I take a principled stand against the spelling system of English despite the obvious practical problems of reform there you spend much time and effort abusing me.

Sorry to return to this, but it's pure genius. Funny how you argue against something on this thread, but don't agree with me when i argue against something else on another thread isn't it

Genius, pure stupid genius

 

[tarannau]

GMarthews is back doing his bit for stupidity in the urban community then.

Cracking stuff from the king of idiots again. BA's entirely right on this one - love the idea of a principled stand being dependent on whether you're supporting GMarthews latest brand of thicko gibberish or not.

 

[JWH]

errrr... the job thing is true statistically, isn´t it? Or at least was prior to the recession kicking in.

I haven't seen any statistics about the unemployment rate among English lions. But I know one of them got laid off a while back, so that's at least 33% of English lions that are unemployed.

 

[kyser_soze]

Is this worth reading from the start, or is it another Gmart Special Thread for Special People?

 

[butchersapron]

Yes to the first because of the second.

 

[butchersapron]

It starts off with

This is a principle which I feel that no one can disagree with.

and the OP also includes this line

It was a missed opportunity when Griffin (the leader of the BNP)

What more do you want?

 

[kyser_soze]

@whole thread

I especially liked the volte-face from the point in the OP to it's polar opposite in about 35 posts. Not a Gmart record, but close.

 

[TAE]

But the principle that a person is a citizen of the country in which they are born is a good one. To base citizenship on ancestry is inherently racist.

As an inclusive principle I agree, however ...


I was born in London, but what if my parents had briefly been in another country when I was born? Should I not have the right to live here?

 

[Lo Siento.]

I haven't seen any statistics about the unemployment rate among English lions. But I know one of them got laid off a while back, so that's at least 33% of English lions that are unemployed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7069779.stm

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are you suggesting that the word 'indigenous' has a reasonable meaning - and are you going to share this with us?

Certainly. "Indigenous" means "original", and as such is pretty much a nonsense word.

Or snipe meaninglessly from the sidelines? I suspect the latter...

You would.
You're well-known for projecting your own behaviour onto others.

Are you suggesting that having borders is not intrinsically racist?

I see you're having difficulty with comprehension again, so I'll reiterate (both to hopefully help you understand, and to illustrate to the majority of readers that you're an idiot.
You said: "Err... any border controls of a country are suggesting that one set of humans who were born in one place are lesser in comparison to the set of humans who are born in the country in question."
To which I replied: "There was I thinking that border controls, for the greater part of European history, "suggested" that the ruling classes were far more concerned about levying and collecting taxes on imports and exports than about "suggesting" that the various peoples of differing European countries had lesser or greater intrinsic or extrinsic worth.
Still, perhaps history is wrong, eh?".
Which suggests nothing of the sort.
However, to tackle your supposed point, border controls aren't "intrinsically racist". That would pre-suppose that the over-riding motivation for them was based on an irrational fear of the alien, whereas where border controls "control" immigration it is almost always based on economic rather than race-based motives.

Thought not.

No, as usual you were too busy trying (and failing) to be clever to have bothered to have thought at all.

And so are you suggesting that we should not have borders of any kind, consistent with your stance against racism? Thought not...

Again, you haven't "thought". In the first place you're extrapolating my possible opinion rather wildly in an attempt to "land a punch". Secondly, given my earlier answer about the nature of border controls (one that still holds true today, I might add), I'd hardly suggest "no borders of any kind" if I were envisaging any sort of international trade at any level, regardless of my stance against racism, would I?
You shouldn't make so many assumptions.

Such as? What problems might it create? The restriction of the current practice that governments have of preventing people from claiming citizenship even if they were born in that country?...

You're arguing for a system whereby you are a citizen of wherever you are born, which while it would expedite the citizenship of some, would make the position of first-generation migrants much more difficult, in terms of making them (although not succeeding generations who are born "in-country") second-class citizens.
Unless, of course, what you're actually proposing is a much more complex system whereby you can go somewhere and then apply for citizenship soon after arrival?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Two in one post! The fabled double header! What a dishonest bastard.

And both for me. I'm honoured!!

 

[Corax]

Unless, of course, what you're actually proposing is a much more complex system whereby you can go somewhere and then apply for citizenship soon after arrival?

Now come on, that's just crazy.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Canada has the same, except you can choose between English and French..

I don't think there's any sort of language proficiency requirement here, at least in the provinces outside Quebec.

 

[Gmart]

@whole thread

I especially liked the volte-face from the point in the OP to it's polar opposite in about 35 posts. Not a Gmart record, but close.

You could try and quote the two conflicting posts, or retreat into your fantasy world.

Certainly. "Indigenous" means "original", and as such is pretty much a nonsense word.

Which is extraordinary after your original ill-thought-out judgement:

Wow, another thread where GMart demands that the meaning of a word be changed in conformity with his beliefs.
How surprising.

However, to tackle your supposed point, border controls aren't "intrinsically racist". That would pre-suppose that the over-riding motivation for them was based on an irrational fear of the alien, whereas where border controls "control" immigration it is almost always based on economic rather than race-based motives.

Of course countries are happy to take tax revenues but you are mistaken to say that any border controls are completely non-racist. My definition of racism is the treating of one set of people differently to another on spurious grounds - I consider geographic position to be spurious. Your argument that borders are purely an economic issue and nothing to do with race seems a bit wishful thinking, when its only effect is to discriminate against one set of people due to their geographic position.

Still if you think it is not racist it is certainly discriminatory and attempting to maintain the rich-poor divide thru controls when without controls the poor would move to the rich areas.

I suspect that you are correct that the government has no interest in the race of the immigrants, just that they come to the UK and work for a competitive wage. However the effect on the existing, poor, unskilled workers in the UK can be to cause more racism and to lead to the BNP vote.

[your argument] would make the position of first-generation migrants much more difficult, in terms of making them (although not succeeding generations who are born "in-country") second-class citizens.
Unless, of course, what you're actually proposing is a much more complex system whereby you can go somewhere and then apply for citizenship soon after arrival?

Why not? - as I have already commented on this - and you seemed to fail to notice - I will state it again, from #61:

I am not concerned with people who were NOT born in the country being citizens, that is the choice of the country in question - I am concerned that people who ARE born in a country are automatically entitled to be a citizen of the country in question.

Something which does NOT automatically happen yet.

Needless to say that I have not anywhere argued to make adopted citizens second class in any way shape or form, nor should those who come to just work be treated differently - they should have the same basic rights as anyone.

There is an interesting aspect of this about the ability and willingness of immigrants to waive their rights so as to encourage their employment here, but I think I will sit back and let the insulters have their fallacious comments first.

 

[butchersapron]

You're a genuine nutjob and idiot of the third type.

 

[DotCommunist]

You are on ignore. So am I. Hence he won't respond to 'dishonest twat'

 

[Corax]

Two in one post! The fabled double header! What a dishonest bastard.

Sorry to return to this, but it's pure genius. Funny how you argue against something on this thread, but don't agree with me when i argue against something else on another thread isn't it

Genius, pure stupid genius

You're a genuine nutjob and idiot of the third type.

You are on ignore. So am I. Hence he won't respond to 'dishonest twat'

Happy to help

 

[ViolentPanda]

Which is extraordinary after your original ill-thought-out judgement:

Only if you're "hard of thinking".

Of course countries are happy to take tax revenues but you are mistaken to say that any border controls are completely non-racist.

I haven't said anything of the sort, and if you didn't have such a singular (for which read "re-interpretive") style of reading, you'd know that.
As it is, you're inventing positions for anyone who argue with you that don't actually exist.
AGAIN.

My definition of racism is the treating of one set of people differently to another on spurious grounds - I consider geographic position to be spurious. Your argument that borders are purely an economic issue and nothing to do with race seems a bit wishful thinking, when its only effect is to discriminate against one set of people due to their geographic position.

Except that I haven't argued that borders are "purely an economic issue", as you should have noticed.

Still if you think it is not racist it is certainly discriminatory...

See, if you try hard enough you are sometimes able to get near the point.

...and attempting to maintain the rich-poor divide thru controls when without controls the poor would move to the rich areas.

Social engineering: The oldest form of engineering known to man.

I suspect that you are correct that the government has no interest in the race of the immigrants, just that they come to the UK and work for a competitive wage. However the effect on the existing, poor, unskilled workers in the UK can be to cause more racism and to lead to the BNP vote.

Can be. Not "is", not "will" but, in fact, "might".
Take a skim through either of the extant BNP membership lists, by the way. If you cross-reference random addresses through ACORN you'll find that it isn't the "poor, unskilled workers" supporting the BNP, just as it hasn't been them voting for them. It's what we now call the "lower middle classes". The "aspirational" home-owning folks who're neither poor or unskilled.

Why not? - as I have already commented on this - and you seemed to fail to notice - I will state it again, from #61:


Something which does NOT automatically happen yet.

And has little to do with how any system that automatically bestows citizenship on second-generation immigrants regardless of any other factors while not facilitating the citizenship of their parents, would place those parents in what would effectively be a "2nd-class" category.

Needless to say that I have not anywhere argued to make adopted citizens second class in any way shape or form...

I haven't claimed that you have.
Learn to read.

nor should those who come to just work be treated differently - they should have the same basic rights as anyone.

There is an interesting aspect of this about the ability and willingness of immigrants to waive their rights so as to encourage their employment here, but I think I will sit back and let the insulters have their fallacious comments first.

You're an idiot.
THAT is not an insult. It's a statement of fact anyone reviewing any of your multitude of threads will arrive at of their own accord.