I Was Born There, So it's my Home

[Gmart]

So that the inequality can be maintained. Nice.

I am not commenting on whether it is 'fair' or not - I am merely stating it as a fact - a party who proposed the non-racist policy of open borders would be committing electoral suicide so this response is much the same as the one to Maomao and I suspect like him you will not make a case for the open borders your (and his) snide remark would require.

so you don't have to be born in a country to have citizenship, make up your fucking mind

I am not concerned with people who were NOT born in the country being citizens, that is the choice of the country in question - I am concerned that people who ARE born in a country are automatically entitled to be a citizen of the country in question.

#21 I stated that there were many who work hard and it is of course a simplification to say that the poor don't work hard - but the fact of the matter seems to be that employers seem to prefer to employ the immigrants in many unskilled jobs - and their argument is that they work much harder.

On the other side of the equation we have certain, poorer sections of society who consider that the immigrants get a 'better' deal than they do in 'their own country' getting all the jobs etc and so turn to the BNP who are providing the easy answer of sending 'them' back home.

Certainly both these sides of the story are simplistic viewpoints, but both sides seem to think that the immigrants are getting the lion's share of the jobs for whatever reason. The simplicity of the arguments does not mean we can dismiss them as foolish - as we have seen the BNP is becoming more popular because and despite the simplicity of their policies, and just ignoring the immigration issue on the equality principle is just helping the BNP.

Add to this that it is a documented fact that the UK employs many qualified people from abroad, while dumbing down their own education system.

It would seem obvious to state that unskilled workers are afflicted by a huge supply of competition because everyone can do these jobs - the corporate world will take advantage of this and if they didn't their competition would...

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is a principle which I feel that no one can disagree with.

The British Nationalist Party in the UK - who believes that the 'indigenous' population should get preference over other humans in their own country - and who are getting more popular after the EU expanded to include Romania and Bulgaria - has caused a furore with their policy.

It was a missed opportunity when Griffin (the leader of the BNP) stated that he defined the indigenous population as those who immigrated after the ice age - it showed that the very word 'indigenous' is not fit for purpose in this debate - the line that needs to be drawn is if you are born in the country - and I would like to see that as a constant law in both the EU and worldwide because there can be no other distinction - one cannot say to someone born in a certain country that it isn't their home.

In an unequal world of rich and poor countries, it is necessary to have controls on borders. But the government is interested in competitiveness and so there is an incentive to keep the borders as open as possible. The poor section of the UK doesn't work very hard but the poor of the rest of the world does and the accusation of rascism keeps most people quiet.

This irritates the poor of the UK who feel that they should have the jobs before the rest of the world's poor.

Of course a pound in the UK doesn't go as far as a pound in Africa, so it is not surprising that the poor move to the rich countries and work hard for a few years, living 11 to a house, to build up a pension. But the government in the UK and other countries seems to have a policy of accepting this and going round the rest of the world taking qualified people from there while letting its education system sink in a sea of dumbed down qualifications and students paid (or forced) to be there.

What a mess! - Thus the BNP or any party suggesting that 'they' should be sent home.

But if they were born in that country then they are already home.

So the indigenous population should mean being born there - (and that includes Israel too!!)

Wow, another thread where GMart demands that the meaning of a word be changed in conformity with his beliefs.
How surprising.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Err... any border controls of a country are suggesting that one set of humans who were born in one place are lesser in comparison to the set of humans who are born in the country in question.

There was I thinking that border controls, for the greater part of European history, "suggested" that the ruling classes were far more concerned about levying and collecting taxes on imports and exports than about "suggesting" that the various peoples of differing European countries had lesser or greater intrinsic or extrinsic worth.
Still, perhaps history is wrong, eh?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hmm, the born in argument does not actually hold very well..

I was born in Germany, but I am not German. I took my nationality from the nationality of my parents who were English and Scottish. Therefore I am British.

Conversely to that, there are, of course, several minion people of Turkish extraction in Germany who were born there and yet aren't (or rather "weren't", as the Germans have finally made a move on the necessary legislation recently) Germans.

My kid, who was born in UK, takes his nationality from his parents, one (me) is half English half Scottish and one who is half Spanish half Catalan. Kid therefore has dual nationality British and Spanish. Kid is a proper European.

Like many people who regard themselves as "indigenous British", in fact.
Me, I'm a mongrel and proud of it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is more an argument against those countries who do not give automatic citizenship to those who are born in their country, as I have made clear.

It may well be, but it's a poor argument because it creates as many problems as it deals with.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If you weren't born in Yorkshire it's a scientific fact that you are genetically/biologically inferior

Only if you class neurological deficit, extraneous toes and a sour disposition as markers of superiority, though.

 

[Corax]

I am not commenting on whether it is 'fair' or not - I am merely stating it as a fact - a party who proposed the non-racist policy of open borders would be committing electoral suicide so this response is much the same as the one to Maomao and I suspect like him you will not make a case for the open borders your (and his) snide remark would require.

What 'case' needs making? Borders are arbitrary and foster inequality. Governments do the same. I don't give a toss about 'electoral suicide', I'm entirely uninterested in the survival of the political status quo.

 

[weltweit]

The thing is, non EU economic migration results from the failure of other governments to provide the economies their populations desire.

Support of those countries to develop their own economies also helps to reduce the flow of non Eu economic migrants.

 

[weltweit]

There is a lot of immigration into Spain from Morrocco which causes a lot of Spanish people great angst and stirs racist feelings. It is not the success of Spain's economy on its own that is the cause for the migration but the failure of Morrocco's.

Spain would be better placed helping Morrocco's economy grow thus giving greater life chances to their population and reducing the flow of migrants.

 

[Corax]

The thing is, non EU economic migration results from the failure of other governments to provide the economies their populations desire.

Entirely of their own making is it?

 

[weltweit]

Entirely of their own making is it?

In some cases, Zimbabwe for example probably yes, in other cases other things may apply.

 

[Corax]

In some cases, Zimbabwe for example probably yes, in other cases other things may apply.

A minority imo. Even in those cases the West certainly has a case to answer.

 

[butchersapron]

In some cases, Zimbabwe for example probably yes, in other cases other things may apply.

Well, i don't think it's that useful to think of international relations in these crude terms but no, most definitely not Zimbabwe.

 

[weltweit]

It was very interesting when German re-unification took place, there was enormous flows of capital into the East to try to prop up the eastern economy which was in collapse. And there were enormous flows of migrants from the former Eastern Germany into the West in search of jobs. Some politicians expected that it would only take a few years before living standards in the East were at the levels of the west, but it has taken much much longer than that and is probably not even now at parity.

There were also strains in relations between former west and former east germans, and that in a nation that wanted to be united.

 

[weltweit]

A minority imo. Even in those cases the West certainly has a case to answer.

I think it is too much to say that the west has been the primary cause of economic failure for example in the third world.

Should national governments not take the main share of blame?

 

[Corax]

crude terms

How is acknowledging the gloabl system, rather than blaming countries in isolation, 'crude terms'?

 

[Corax]

the primary cause

I don't think I said that anywhere.

 

[butchersapron]

How is acknowledging the gloabl system, rather than blaming countries in isolation, 'crude terms'?

I was talking about the exact opposite of that. That's why i quoted the other poster as a an example of that type of thinking not you. I think you could really do with calming down.

 

[Corax]

I was talking about the exact opposite of that. That's why i quoted the other poster as a an example of that type of thinking not you. I think you could really do with calming down.

Jeez. Just cos I like a little swear-fest now and again everyone thinks I'm some sort of raging bloodpressure psycho all of a sudden! I'm perfectly calm thanks BA. How was my posting in this thread not 'calm'? I misinterpreted your point, that's all. FFS!

*builds patio*

 

[weltweit]

I think my point is that it is wealth imbalances that cause economic migration. If (within the EU) Poland had an economy like Britain's then we would not have had that influx of Poles that we had.

How one balances the economies of the globe when many of them are bent on warfare and strife is however quite another thing.

 

[Corax]

when many of them are bent on warfare and strife

I'm not sure that's actually the intended objective for any state. It may be what they percieve as the means to an end, profit, but it's not the end in itself.

Hope that's 'calm' enough for other posters.... FFS.

 

[butchersapron]

Nah, go on, embarrass yourself by jumping on posters and rattling your anti-fascist medals (earned where?) like a drunken teenage trot on this one too.

 

[Corax]

Nah, go on, embarrass yourself by jumping on posters and rattling your anti-fascist medals (earned where?) like a drunken teenage trot on this one too.

I think you could really do with calming down.

 

[Corax]

your anti-fascist medals (earned where?)

I do find this bit interesting. Do you have to 'earn' your right to have a political opinion BA?

 

[butchersapron]

Nah not really interested.

 

[Corax]

Nah not really interested.

Good. Me neither.

 

[weltweit]

I think America and Germany have language proficiency as a requirement of citizenship, I don't know if we do but I think we should.

I would not dream of trying to live in France without learning french.

 

[Corax]

I think America and Germany have language proficiency as a requirement of citizenship, I don't know if we do but I think we should.

I would not dream of trying to live in France without learning french.

Pragmatically, I agree. But I'd have the caveat that the state should provide every means of enabling it. Neither do I think that it should be an absolute.

 

[CyberRose]

The thing is, non EU economic migration results from the failure of other governments to provide the economies their populations desire.

Support of those countries to develop their own economies also helps to reduce the flow of non Eu economic migrants.

A capitalist country requires a lot of people at the bottom of society doing crap jobs for crap money. Without such people, the elite wouldn't be the elite. The owner of Barclays would be nowhere without all the cashiers, the owner of Corus would be nowhere without all the factory workers and the owner of T-Mobile would be nowhere without all the call centre bods. The majority of people working in the private sector in this country create wealth not for themselves but for the people above them. Without the people at the bottom, no wealth would be created in the first place, and therefore, the elite at the top would not receive that wealth to start with. Therefore, in a capitalist country, there needs to be x amount of people at the bottom for the whole thing to work...

...the global system is no different. (Rich) Western countries need the 'assistance' of poor third world countries to make cheap products like clothes or electronics or provide services. If all countries were the same (ie labour cost the same) then those cheap products would not be cheap at all and the multinationals would not be able to make as much money off them. There needs to be x amount of poor countries for the Western nations to fleece otherwise our economic system simply would not work

 

[weltweit]

I have a spanish friend, it turned out that since their father had died their mother who did not speak any english had been living alone in a London flat with virtually no support. She was already aeging and frail, but that she could not communicate with anyone must have made it doubly difficult. What amazed me more was that she had been living here for some 20 years and had never learnt english in all that time.