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"I took explosives on to underground but didn't mean to kill anyone"

Nemo said:
Having all the armed police around didn't stop the July 21st attacks, did it? Nor did the armed police in Madrid, New York, etc. Be realistic.

I went looking for news reports of suicide bombers being shot.

I found two, in North Jerusalem and Gaza (and we know that the Israeli Defence Force bigs itself up at every opportunity... I didn't find material to check these reports).

I also found two reports of police killing would-be suicide bombers after they'd failed, in Turkey and Israel.

That's all I could find.
 
JHE said:
Re. Livingstone:

He went out of his way to welcome and embrace Qaradawi and lied about Qaradawi's views to make the old Islamist seem less appalling than he is.

(See the briefing on Outrage's site, complete with links to Qaradawi's fatwas on Islam Online.)

Possibly. Although wtf that has to do with the nebulous concept of 'political correctness' is anybody's guess.
 
laptop said:
I went looking for news reports of suicide bombers being shot.

I found two, in North Jerusalem and Gaza (and we know that the Israeli Defence Force bigs itself up at every opportunity... I didn't find material to check these reports).

I also found two reports of police killing would-be suicide bombers after they'd failed, in Turkey and Israel.

That's all I could find.

Doesn't surprise me that it's so few.
 
"To be guilty of this offence [attempted murder] an offender must be shown to have moved beyond the merely exploratory phase, and to have embarked on his endeavour to kill; and, even more significantly, he must be shown to have had the specific intention to kill the victim. An intention to cause serious bodily injury would make him guilty of attempting to cause such injury, or of causing it if the attempt progressed that far. But he would not be guilty of attempted murder in the absence of a proved intention to kill. [...] for attempted murder the maximum sentence of life imprisonment is discretionary, not mandatory." http://www.dca.gov.uk/judicial/speeches/mansent.htm
 
TeeJay said:
"To be guilty of this offence [atempted murder] an offender must be shown to have moved beyond the merely exploratory phase, and to have embarked on his endeavour to kill; and, even more significantly, he must be shown to have had the specific intention to kill the victim. An intention to cause serious bodily injury would make him guilty of attempting to cause such injury, or of causing it if the attempt progressed that far. But he would not be guilty of attempted murder in the absence of a proved intention to kill. [...] for attempted murder the maximum sentence of life imprisonment is discretionary, not mandatory." http://www.dca.gov.uk/judicial/speeches/mansent.htm

I imagine that they will at least try attempted murder and, if they are found guilty, the discretionary life sentence would be passed.
 
Nemo said:
Possibly.
There were plenty of people clamouring to point out the truth about Qaradawi. Livingstone went out of his way to continue to stick up for Qaradawi in letters to the press and angrily accused Outrage etc of prejudice.

The only possible way in which Livingstone could not be guilty of lying is by not wanting to know and refusing to find out. If that's the case, he is culpably ignorant of Qaradawi's views and prefers his own pro-Islamic prejudices, despite the easily-found evidence that Outrage is right and he (Livingstone) is wrong.
 
Nemo said:
I imagine that they will at least try attempted murder and, if they are found guilty, the discretionary life sentence would be passed.
Life imprisonment is the best punishment for would-be suicide bombers - it's the worst possible defeat they can face.
 
JHE said:
Assuming the would-be bombers are sentenced to life, they will be very lucky ever to get out.
That's exactly what I am asking for evidence of. There are very few people who have 'whole life tariffs' in UK jails, and iirc none for 'attempted murder' - see list here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_life_tariff

...edit: fuck it, I can't seem to find any figures for 'average sentences/tariffs for attempted murder'... :(
 
Nemo said:
I imagine that they will at least try attempted murder and, if they are found guilty, the discretionary life sentence would be passed.
My point in posting that is that if the prosecutioj can't prove an *intention* to kill, then he can't be convicted of attempted murder.

Secondly, (this was a seperate point) - there have been no cases that I can find ever of someone getting a whole life tariff for attempted murder. I have found that sentences for murder are typically longer (ie life) and that the average life sentence is 15 years.

What I am slightly alarmed at is people calling for punishments which are far harsher than typical murder cases etc. After all these people didn't actually kill anyone, so why should they get harsher sentences than people who have? This isn't to say I am saying be soft on them - I'm just saying be consistent. I am sure the courts will be consistent in any case, which is why I doubt they will get whole-life tariffs even if they do get life sentences.
 
Bob_the_lost said:
He'll serve life (if convicted), do you really doubt it?
I think he'll probably get a life sentence but I don't think he'd get a whole life tariff - this is based not on what I feel about the crime, but on looking at previous UK sentencing including for terrorist offences.

I am willing to look at any evidence you want to put on the table however.
 
TeeJay said:
After all these people didn't actually kill anyone, so why should they get harsher sentences than people who have?

Think. How someone kills or fails to kill someone is always relevant to sentence. At the extreme, if a Xtian churchgoing accountant drives a car at his wife and misses, he may get away without any custodial sentence at all. And if he kills her, he'll likely get a shorter sentence than someone else would for an Explosives Act offence alone.

I'm sure that posters who follow events in the top-right corner of the Island of Ireland will be able to come up with long sentences for attempted murder + Explosives Act offences.
 
TeeJay said:
I think he'll probably get a life sentence but I don't think he'd get a whole life tariff - this is based not on what I feel about the crime, but on looking at previous UK sentencing including for terrorist offences.

I am willing to look at any evidence you want to put on the table however.
None, but i'll put money on any convicted of this not leaving prison short of OAP status or a box.
 
HarrisonSlade said:
Yeah I guess. But, if you have come this far and your destiny was to blow yourself to smithereens, but you failed, then surely it would be a much more worthy thing to do for your cause to say that you went out to kill these people for your beliefs, and go to prison a martyr with conviction. The wriggling out of it that this guy looks like he is doing doesn't look like the actions of a man who was brave enough to commit suicide for his cause.

Maybe he had second thoughts.
 
laptop said:
Think. How someone kills or fails to kill someone is always relevant to sentence. At the extreme, if a Xtian churchgoing accountant drives a car at his wife and misses, he may get away without any custodial sentence at all. And if he kills her, he'll likely get a shorter sentence than someone else would for an Explosives Act offence alone.

I'm sure that posters who follow events in the top-right corner of the Island of Ireland will be able to come up with long sentences for attempted murder + Explosives Act offences.
I fully understand your point. I didn't say it explicitly but was comparing attempted murder with deliberate (ie cold blooded) murder. Murder will always get a life sentence although the tariff could be set very low. Attempted murder might get a life sentence or it might not: the length of sentence (if fixed term) or the tariff (if life) may well be set higher than the tariff for a murder. In other words there is potentially a lot of overlap between the sentences.

However my point still stands - why are people demanding harsher sentences for an attempted murder than are typiucally handed out for a pre-meditated murder or why are they expecting a harsher sentence?

Secondly I would welcome any actual figures for attempted murder sentences and for terrorist offences. I can't find any record of these crimes ever being given full life tariffs. Can you?
 
TeeJay said:
That's exactly what I am asking for evidence of.
Being allowed out on licence is not automatic. Don't you think that it would be extremely difficult for the bombers to persuade anyone that they are safe to let out?
 
TeeJay said:
why are people demanding harsher sentences for an attempted murder than are typiucally handed out for a pre-meditated murder or why are they expecting a harsher sentence?

  • People are angry and frightened, and some are angry again because they don't like to be seen to be frightened;
  • They want revenge;
  • Calling for maximum penalties makes them feel butch and counters the shame of the fear;
  • Some of these people are judges;
  • The judges will justify their feelings by that catch-all "the interests of public policy" - which include dealing with people's fear and anger through the theatre of a trial with the closure of a long sentence;
  • But the accused will be tried for attempting to murder about 100 people at once - not a charge for which I can remember a precedent right now;
  • They will also be on trial for terrorism, whatever the charges - which always attracts the full ire of a sentencing judge (see "public policy" above);
  • I wouldn't be surprised if sentences were handed down so severe that the convicts win appeal against sentence in the European Court in about 2030 - by which time the social-theatre function of the long sentence is complete

TeeJay said:
I would welcome any actual figures for attempted murder sentences and for terrorist offences. I can't find any record of these crimes ever being given full life tariffs. Can you?

I'm just not in the mood to read dozens or hundreds of pages of Home Office stats or, if they exist, criminology PhDs right now.

Was anyone tried for the 'RA's North Circular fizzle?
 
Badger Kitten said:
What Bart Simpson always says:

'It wasn't me I didn't do it you can't prove anything'.

lols yeah, thats rigth u keep beleiving, its like the dog who stole the food, "i never meant to eat it, i just wanted to look at it"
 
HarrisonSlade said:
Yeah I guess. But, if you have come this far and your destiny was to blow yourself to smithereens, but you failed, then surely it would be a much more worthy thing to do for your cause to say that you went out to kill these people for your beliefs, and go to prison a martyr with conviction. The wriggling out of it that this guy looks like he is doing doesn't look like the actions of a man who was brave enough to commit suicide for his cause.

BUt if he's dead it doesnt matter to him becuase he'll be shagging virgins in heaven. Now he isnt its teribly important to how long he spends in prison before he gets to try again
 
editor said:
'Brave'?!

It's not a word I'd use to describe someone intent on mass random murder.

'Twisted' would seem more appropriate to me. And that's being polite.

Is it not possible to be both at the same time?
 
john x said:
whose accounts?

john x

Warnings on jail Muslims were ignored by ministers
By Rajeev Syal and Chris Hastings
(Filed: 30/12/2001)


THE Government ignored specific warnings more than a year ago that Muslim extremists were infiltrating prisons and recruiting inmates, The Telegraph can reveal.

Jack Straw, the then Home Secretary, and Martin Narey, the director general of the Prison Service, were told by mainstream Muslim leaders that "bad practices" meant that untrained, radical imams could operate in prisons.

Mr Narey was told separately, in a private meeting with senior Muslims, that a lack of regulations was allowing the extremists to pose as mainstream clerics and gain access to vulnerable prisoners.

"He was told that bogus representatives of the Muslim community could exploit the situation unless qualified imams were given similar status to Christian prison chaplains," said a senior Muslim cleric. "Sadly, nothing was done."

The disclosure, which will embarrass ministers, follows Friday's appearance in a Boston court of Richard Reid, the suspected "shoe bomber", who developed an interest in Islam from an imam while in Feltham young offenders institution in the 1990s.

Special Branch detectives are trying to locate five other young converts who have disappeared over the past six months, and who are linked to Reid.

They are among up to 100 British Muslims thought to have been trained by or be otherwise linked to Osama bin Laden's al-Qa'eda terrorist network.

Police spoke on Friday to Abdul Haqq Baker, the imam of the Brixton mosque where Reid studied.

Now Scotland Yard detectives have drawn up a list of five main suspects - all British-born converts, some of whom may have changed religion while in prison - from information from Mr Baker and other intelligence sources.

Detectives are investigating suggestions that one of the men could have been Reid's accomplice in his attempt to blow up an American Airlines aircraft from Paris to Boston last weekend. The FBI wants to question a second man.

Scotland Yard fears that Islamic fundamentalists have recruited inmates to a network of terrorist cells across the country.

The recruits, drawn from Britain's 4,000 jailed Muslims, are believed to have been primed to carry out atrocities similar to those planned by Reid, who converted on leaving Feltham.

Imam Abduljalil Sajid, a prison imam and a member of the National Council for the Welfare of Muslim Prisoners, met Mr Narey more than a year ago and warned him that qualified Muslim clerics would not apply for the job because of poor terms and conditions.

The meeting, in Prison Service headquarters in London, was followed by a series of letters asking Mr Straw for an improvement in conditions for prison imams.

Mr Sajid, a leading member of the Muslim Council of Britain, said the Government was to blame for allowing a situation to develop in which "bogus" clerics could infiltrate prisons.

The Home Office has refused to grant Muslim clerics the same pay and conditions as Church of England clerics.

"There is no formal contract and job description of Muslim chaplains. We don't know what their qualifications are or from where they are recruited."

Staff at one high security prison complained yesterday about an imam who has since left the service. The unnamed cleric allegedly handed anti-American literature to inmates and played videos promoting jihad. He is now training to be a pilot.

Last week the Home Office confirmed that it was investigating three imams.

Tom Watson, a Labour member of the Commons home affairs select committee, said: "I am very concerned about what seems to be a cult of extremism developing in the prison system.

"Religious extremists should not be able to recruit thugs to their private armies to carry out terrorist acts.

"I shall ask David Blunkett, the Home Secretary, for a full inquiry into the way imams are allowed to work."

There is no suggestion that the majority of imams who volunteer their services to the Home Office are involved in recruitment activity, but officers in a number of jails have expressed concern.

A Prison Service spokesman said Mr Narey could not be contacted for comment.

He said only one imam has had accusations of extremism proved against him, one has been cleared and one is being investigated. "All imams and religious representatives must be security checked."

Jonathan Aitken talks about his experience of Muslim proselytisers in jail.

3 clerics, including one at Feltham, were suspended in 2001

Shoe bomber Reid path to radical Islam via Feltham cleric

However the BBC plays down the reports.
 
Rocket Romano said:
Shoot the bastard

He was going to take lives without thinking

Lets do the same
Presumably his intention was to die in a blaze of glory (OK, well, maybe nails) and go to heaven a martyr. He failed. I don't think we should do his job for him and help him succeed where he failed.

Firstly, we should not sink to the same level of these people, since that just makes us become what we oppose. Secondly, if we're going to punish someone like this, then I can't think of a more fitting punishment than forcing him to languish in jail for the rest of his NATURAL life: he wanted to die as a hero, so let's make him live as a criminal. He's already done a nice job of undermining his heroism by trying to claim he wasn't really a suicide bomber, so the best thing that could happen to him would be for him to have to stay alive with the knowledge that he failed. Deny him his martyrdom.
 
pembrokestephen said:
Presumably his intention was to die in a blaze of glory (OK, well, maybe nails) and go to heaven a martyr. He failed. I don't think we should do his job for him and help him succeed where he failed.

Firstly, we should not sink to the same level of these people, since that just makes us become what we oppose. Secondly, if we're going to punish someone like this, then I can't think of a more fitting punishment than forcing him to languish in jail for the rest of his NATURAL life: he wanted to die as a hero, so let's make him live as a criminal. He's already done a nice job of undermining his heroism by trying to claim he wasn't really a suicide bomber, so the best thing that could happen to him would be for him to have to stay alive with the knowledge that he failed. Deny him his martyrdom.

You can forget about putting him in jail for the rest of his life, rightly or wrongly we're signed up to loads of human rights charters which forbids it.
 
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