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I think I'm back in the Lib Dems.... I think

but thats just it anarchists like butchers and (I think) in bloom dont discuss or debate ideas with people they just snipe at you from the sidelines, picking holes in what you say.

Shevek

To be fair you do invite a certain amount of derision with your constant switching between such clearly juxtaposed sides. And if you want debate then foster it, bring up issues which you want to know about, threads like this blatantly aren't going to lead anywhere. Plus you don't need to sign up to anything to talk about Anarchism or to Anarchists, if you just want to learn and discuss honestly I'm sure you'd find plenty willing to help you.
 
To be fair you do invite a certain amount of derision with your constant switching between such clearly juxtaposed sides. And if you want debate then foster it, bring up issues which you want to know about, threads like this blatantly aren't going to lead anywhere. Plus you don't need to sign up to anything to talk about Anarchism or to Anarchists, if you just want to learn and discuss honestly I'm sure you'd find plenty willing to help you.

fair enough :-)
 
Does everyone in the AF appear a ready-made ideologically pure anarchist. All I am saying is I like some of the ideas and would like to find out more. You may not neccesarily agree with everything I say but I am open to debate and persuasion. Isn't it enough to be interested in the ideas? Surely the rest follows?
There is disagreement within the AF, but we do have a minimum level of political agreement, because it would be impossible for us to function as a political organisation that promotes a certain set of ideas if we didn't define what those ideas were. I'm happy to discuss or debate any aspect of my politics, I just don't understand why you'd want to join an organisation whose clearly stated politics are in direct opposition to your own.
 
To be fair you do invite a certain amount of derision with your constant switching between such clearly juxtaposed sides. And if you want debate then foster it, bring up issues which you want to know about, threads like this blatantly aren't going to lead anywhere. Plus you don't need to sign up to anything to talk about Anarchism or to Anarchists, if you just want to learn and discuss honestly I'm sure you'd find plenty willing to help you.
This, basically.
 
I just don't understand why you'd want to join an organisation whose clearly stated politics are in direct opposition to your own.

Why are you making MASSIVE assumptions about what my political views actually are? I joined the Lib Dems after pressure from my boyfriend I don't neccesarily agree with them on everything or anything.

Some of the biggest influences on my thinking have been the linguist Noam Chomsky and the anthropologist David Graeber. I am mystified as to why you think you KNOW my political opinions and why you assume these are in contradiction to anarchism???

I might not know as much as in bloom and butchers but surely an interest in anarchism should be encouraged. I do admit I have probably gone about this in the wrong way. I should never have posted so many threads and should engage in much more of my own reading. So I admit I am probably at least partly to blame.

Shevek
 
The end result of the Allende govt’s illusions in the sort of politics you’re trying to sell here was 30 years of military dictatorship and thousands and thousands dead. The system does not allow challenges to its functioning to arise from within itself - no anarchist should need telling this in 2009.

But wasn't the result of anarchist revolution in Spain and subsequent civil war precisely decades of military dictatorship? What is the difference?
 
The revolution followed the start of the civil war - the revolution was subsequent (consequent even) to the military uprising - it wasn't a challenge to the system from within the system (as per your favoured non-anarchist model). It's more evidence of how the system reacts when it feel threatened and why your democratic illusions are dangerous and naive.
 
The revolution followed the start of the civil war - the revolution was subsequent (consequent even) to the military uprising - it wasn't a challenge to the system from within the system (as per your favoured non-anarchist model). It's more evidence of how the system reacts when it feel threatened and why your democratic illusions are dangerous and naive.

Ok. Thanks for that Butchers. I think I understand the general point you are making. The anarchist movement (which I think in Spain had been growing and developing for decades/generations) became an outright threat to the status quo and thus the military and elements of the establishment moved against them thus starting the civil war.

I will admit the charge that I am probably naive. I need to do a lot more of my own reading and I have probably brought a lot of opprobrium on myself through my own attitude on here although I don't know why everyone assumes I am more in the lib dem camp than the anarchist camp. I would like to learn more about anarchism and don't see why that should be discouraged.
 
Why are you making MASSIVE assumptions about what my political views actually are? I joined the Lib Dems after pressure from my boyfriend I don't neccesarily agree with them on everything or anything.

Some of the biggest influences on my thinking have been the linguist Noam Chomsky and the anthropologist David Graeber. I am mystified as to why you think you KNOW my political opinions and why you assume these are in contradiction to anarchism???
Well I can only go off what you've said here. The AF's As+Ps includes:
#6 - It is not possible to abolish Capitalism without a revolution, which will arise out of class conflict. The ruling class must be completely overthrown to achieve anarchist communism. Because the ruling class will not relinquish power without their use of armed force, this revolution will be a time of violence as well as liberation.
and
#8 Genuine liberation can only come about through the revolutionary self activity of the working class on a mass scale[...]
This is pretty obviously contradictory to what you've said about Allende, and to your saying that you "dont see this FUNDAMENTAL objection to the lib dems", because both of those opinions are based upon the idea that it is possible for the interests of the working class to be served by collaboration with the ruling class.

I might not know as much as in bloom and butchers but surely an interest in anarchism should be encouraged. I do admit I have probably gone about this in the wrong way. I should never have posted so many threads and should engage in much more of my own reading. So I admit I am probably at least partly to blame.
It's not my intention to discourage you from anything. I'm just saying that your politics, as you've stated them on here, are at odds with those of the AF. At the risk of sounding repetitive; we are a political organisation, we'd be mad to not require a certain level of political agreement from people joining.
 
Ok so we have probably established that I am not ready to join the AF, not any time soon anyway (although I wouldn't rule it out). I maybe a bit confused about the Lib Dem's but my view on Allende's Chile is informed by some of the (anarchist) Chomsky I have read.

I know I made the point to Butchers and he did answer it to some extent but the very anarchist revolution in Spain still ended up in military dicatorship that came about with the demise of Allende's reformist government. How did organising in an anarchist way massively benefit the people of Spain as opposed to the people of Chile?

Shevek
 
Thanks to Butchers and In Bloom for engaging with me on this thread.

I just want to clarify my position really. Although I have never been a member of any anarchist group I have been interested in anarchism since my sixth form days (which is about ten years ago now). A friend of mine at college had an older boyfriend who was in Anti Fascist Action and he introduced me to anarchist ideas for the first time. Since then I have always been fascinated and picked up books here and there which explain it.

I have read quite a bit of Chomsky and I refer to him a lot which was where I got some of my ideas about Allende's Chile. I tend to see things in terms of structures or hierarchies like the government, big corporations, the military-industrial complex in America. I tend to see world politics in terms of imperialism mediated by these authoritarian structures and mechanisms and it is these mechanisms that need breaking down. I also see that certain benefits and rights can accrue (for example within western industrial societies like Britian, Germany, The USA) where people have more room for freedom of speech, rights of assembly, welfare and so on.

Maybe I am a bit confused, maybe I should have never joined the Lib Demmers. Nevertheless I see the way of progress as being towards dismantling authoritarian structures and creating an equal and libertarian society on a global scale.

On a personal basis last time I looked at the Aims and Principles of the AF I only found myself having problems with two items. The first was the item against religion. I wasn't sure at the time that all religion was neccesarily pernicious but I have since come to agree completely with this aim and principle. The next item I was concerned about was the commitment to violence. I shuddered a little at this one as I am loathe to be branded a terrorist, although I understand the importance of self defence and defending the revolution.

On another level, personally I am not sure If joining the AF would be compatible with my lifestyle. I am very close to my partner. We have quite a cosy life. We are not rich by any standards but my partner runs his own company. I work part time and am thinking about post-graduate study. We have quite a low income but eat well and go out to coffee shops and hotels everyday (not for meals but for teas and coffee's) and I am not sure how commited I could be to what I imagine would be attending demo's, possibly confrontations with the police (I might be imagining all this of course). I dunno If I could live a very intense life as an activist but then again I have harboured these anarchist sympathies for over a decade and feel the need to develop them. I just feel I need to meet other anarchists, have some kind of support network but as I said I don't know if being an actual activist or militant is what I am looking for (although I do want to be more active).

Someone on this website once sent me a link to an international group of anarchist intellectuals (academics, writers, journalists). I can't remember what it was called but Naomi Klein author of No Logo is a member so maybe that is an avenue to explore as I see myself as more intellectually minded (thinking about doing a PhD for example).

Shevek
 
but thats just it anarchists like butchers and (I think) in bloom dont discuss or debate ideas with people they just snipe at you from the sidelines, picking holes in what you say....Why can't he elaborate on things?
because there simply aren't enough hours in the day - ANY day - to give an indepth socratic discourse to every point made on a bulletin board, or to turn that into a 64-point programme for action, possibly?
 
Someone on this website once sent me a link to an international group of anarchist intellectuals (academics, writers, journalists). I can't remember what it was called but Naomi Klein author of No Logo is a member

if NK is a memeber they're about as much "anarchist" as Jimmy Carter!
 
I haven't posted for three months, and I feel like I've missed out on one man's political and spiritual journey from the Lib Dems to the Lib Dems. :(
 
Can't see it as any stranger a transition as that from trotskyist or stalinist to Anarchist which plenty of people claimed to make around 1990. At least you have been honest about your political doubts.
 
Can't see it as any stranger a transition as that from trotskyist or stalinist to Anarchist which plenty of people claimed to make around 1990. At least you have been honest about your political doubts.

Its New Years Day and Im pissed but what the fuck do you mean?
 
Seems sensible you have more chance in making a differeance working with the lib dems then having some shitty job and attending a few AF meetings and mouthing off on a forum board.
 
A massive chance of making a difference. Been allowed to suck his balls yet?

You poor time wasting ladder climbing ballsucking clod.
 
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