I think i have just seen the future of the Left!

[Udo Erasmus]

Depends how it's done. There's a depressingly prevelant school of thought that seems to believe tha the answer to the world's environmental problems is to price the poor off everything - usually with the twisted justification of "well, if they were reeeaaalllly poor, they wouldn't be able to aford to [insert activity] in the first place". Progressive environmentalist need to vocally distance themselves from this reactionary nonsense.

Many measures to tackle climate change could actually benefit poorer people. For example a massive government programme of house insulation would mean that people would be paying less on their heating bills. Cheap public transport would also be of advantage to poorer people.

 

[audiotech]

Thats fine, treelover, but I ask again the question I asked on the other thread - if people at the camp have such a good understanding of class why do we get the impression that neither the NUM, nor power workers, nor workers at Drax itself have been contacted or consulted with by the organisers. (To such an extent that on the first day the right wing media were able to approvingly quote the criticism of Steve Kemp of the NUM.) Does a way forward for the left involve alienating not only the key workers in the industries that need to be changed (who surely should be allies in trying to change their industries) and the larger working class who fear the effect of either short term power cuts or long term job losses?

The way forward is surely class unity around progressive goals, not self appointed saviours, no matter how 'good' their analysis or 'brave' their direct action.

I wonder if Steve Kemp is still a Trotskyist and SWP member? If he is will that piss off treelover and his trotskyite despising compatriates (most appear to be post graduate students)?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> For example, there is a widespread idea in the environmental movement that tackling climate change will mean a cut in living standards whereas I would argue that building a sustainable society would actually improve quality of life.

That's an interesting claim.

I dunno if this thread is the place to go into it but I'd be very interested in knowing why you think that.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

That's an interesting claim.

I dunno if this thread is the place to go into it but I'd be very interested in knowing why you think that.

Will elaborate when I have time. Out of interest any links to the comments from Steve Kemp about Drax protest. It would be quite typical to hear a trade unionist put the sectional interests of one group of workers over the interests of the working class as a whole. Organisations like the NUM have to stop defending fossil fuels.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Thinking about it, there's already a thread about the issue you raised. In fact, I started it ages ago, but it's been defunct for quite a while. It has some interesting stuff in it though, from catch, sihhi and especially from Herman, and if you want to pick the topic up I'm game.

Sustainability vs Standard of Living

 

[audiotech]

Organisations like the NUM have to stop defending fossil fuels.

I'm aware that the NUM has campaigned in the past for technology to clean up the discharges?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

I'm aware that the NUM has campaigned in the past for technology to clean up the discharges?

I am aware that the NUM argues for a transfer to cleaner coal technology, but as far as I'm aware the NUM fails to call for a transfer to renewable energy.

If Steve Kemp (who has a high position in the union) is currently a trotskyist, he should be arguing for a transition to renewable energy but in a manner that doesn't jeopardise the livelihood of miners.

Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans gave a glimpse of climate catastrophe, and how the first and worst victims will be the poor and working class. If the NUM does not advocate a transfer to renewables in the long term it is anti-working class and anti-planet.

 

[Spion]

How original, ever heard of holidays?

It's a reasonable question, especially as you didn't mention that all these people had taken time off work to attend the camp in your OP (so stick your rolling eyes up your sweaty fat arse)

 

[audiotech]

I am aware that the NUM argues for a transfer to cleaner coal technology, but as far as I'm aware the NUM fails to call for a transfer to renewable energy.

If Steve Kemp (who has a high position in the union) is currently a trotskyist, he should be arguing for a transition to renewable energy but in a manner that doesn't jeopardise the livelihood of miners.

Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans gave a glimpse of climate catastrophe, and how the first and worst victims will be the poor and working class. If the NUM does not advocate a transfer to renewables in the long term it is anti-working class and anti-planet.

Interesting, thanks.

 

[brasicritique]

many appeared to lean towards a form of neo medieval guild socialism: small localised self sufficient communities based on sustainable but high tech technologies, but aware of the limitations of these communities in a globalised world of billions

hmmm sounds a bit like bnp policy

 

[Spion]

many appeared to lean towards a form of neo medieval guild socialism: small localised self sufficient communities based on sustainable but high tech technologies, but aware of the limitations of these communities in a globalised world of billions

hmmm sounds a bit like bnp policy

or some Islamicist fantasy

 

[TremulousTetra]

deleted

 

[Bernie Gunther]

double-post deleted

 

[Bernie Gunther]

many appeared to lean towards a form of neo medieval guild socialism: small localised self sufficient communities based on sustainable but high tech technologies, but aware of the limitations of these communities in a globalised world of billions

hmmm sounds a bit like bnp policy

Those are really old (small-g) green ideas, except for maybe the 'guild' stuff, don't know where that came from unless it's old stuff like William Morris. . The BNP started pinching them a few years ago.

 

[brasicritique]

But then not many people on these boards care to examine the shared ideological similarities of the green movement and the far right. i wonder why?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

But then not many people on these boards care to examine the shared ideological similarities of the green movement and the far right. i wonder why?

Here's a thread on that very subject.

Ecology & Fascism

 

[brasicritique]

If only i had a time machine!

 

[treelover]

You really believe the idealistic young people involved in this event are sympathetic to fascist ideas?

 

[brasicritique]

i believe eveyone who posts on these boards is a fascist.

 

[Wilf]

It's a reasonable question, especially as you didn't mention that all these people had taken time off work to attend the camp in your OP (so stick your rolling eyes up your sweaty fat arse)

Now that you've graduated from Charm School, are you planning to do a Postgraduate course?

 

[Spion]

Now that you've graduated from Charm School, are you planning to do a Postgraduate course?

Oh, fuck off. It was a reasonable question which was unanswered. And still is.