I need a small, compact PA

[beesonthewhatnow]

We also need to send a feed to the pub's speakers otherwise it's too quiet at the back so I've got to see if there's a way I can send out two feeds from the Mackie mixer.

Your mackie has a pair of unbalanced outputs in addition to the main outs that you could use for this, providing the cable run wasn't too huge.

 

[editor]

Your mackie has a pair of unbalanced outputs in addition to the main outs that you could use for this, providing the cable run wasn't too huge.

Gotcha. So I send the XLR outputs to the speakers and the jack plug output to the upstairs shitty PA, yes?

I fear there's no way to drive the bass bins separately from their upstairs amp, so to get any volume out of them, I'd have to up the volume of the awful wall speakers too, but I'll check soon.

 

[Crispy]

Welcome to the bottomless pit that is live sound

And you welcomed him in with open arms. This is like pushing heroin on schoolkids - you oughta be ashamed

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Gotcha. So I send the XLR outputs to the speakers and the jack plug output to the upstairs shitty PA, yes?

Yep.

I fear there's no way to drive the bass bins separately from their upstairs amp, so to get any volume out of them, I'd have to up the volume of the awful wall speakers too, but I'll check soon.

I'll be amazed if there isn't some sort of level control on the crossover, so you should be able to balance things. You could always simply unlug the outputs that go the wall speakers as well

Bear in mind if you can't delay the signal to the speakers further down the room you're gonna make things sounds worse by plugging them in...

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

you oughta be ashamed

Never!

 

[editor]

Bear in mind if you can't delay the signal to the speakers further down the room you're gonna make things sounds worse by plugging them in...

Why would I need to introduce a delay in such a relatively small space?

 

[editor]

Here's what the system would be if i go ahead and empty out my bank account:

1 x Mackie 6ch desk (bought)
2 x RCF ART 310A speakers (Active 2 way, 10" LF, 1" HF drivers, 350w Monolithic bi-amplification, 300w low frequency and 50w high frequency power.)
1 x dB SUB12 subwoofer (12" active, 400w)

Looking good?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Why would I need to introduce a delay in such a relatively small space?

You ideally need to delay any speaker that isn't in line with the front pair - the small timing differences can make a right fuckup of the sound as you get a flanging effect when you're stood at the back.

What sort of distance are we talking about from the FOH cabs to these wall speakers?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Here's what the system would be if i go ahead and empty out my bank account:

1 x Mackie 6ch desk (bought)
2 x RCF ART 310A speakers (Active 2 way, 10" LF, 1" HF drivers, 350w Monolithic bi-amplification, 300w low frequency and 50w high frequency power.)
1 x dB SUB12 subwoofer (12" active, 400w)

Looking good?

Yeah, you'll have quite a nice little setup there

Don't forget to budget for cables/adapters - you need lots, and they soon add up.

 

[editor]

You ideally need to delay any speaker that isn't in line with the front pair - the small timing differences can make a right fuckup of the sound as you get a flanging effect when you're stood at the back.

What sort of distance are we talking about from the FOH cabs to these wall speakers?

Miles of cable! The cable would go from the 'stage' upstairs to the amp and the back down to the speakers at the back.

The more I think about it, the more a separate bass bin looks a definite requirement. I'm not so bothered for playing back DJs - they've always had speakers scattered all over the pub.

If the night gets lively, I'm only really concerned in making sure the 'dance floor' gets a good sound and that it's not a dreadful racket at the back (so peeps can get a bit of quiet of they want it).

So I'd unplug the house PA from the mixer when the band is on and then have it running fairly quietly when we're playing records and only have it loud through my own PA.

Make sense?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

If the night gets lively, I'm only really bothered in making sure the 'dance floor' gets a good sound and that it's not a dreadful racket at the back. So I'd unplug the house PA from the mixer when the band is on and then have it running fairly quietly when we're playing records and only have it loud through my own PA.

Make sense?

That sounds like the best way forward to me

 

[editor]

That sounds like the best way forward to me

Looks like I'm getting the hang of this PA thing.

Slowly!

 

[Crispy]

Does that mean having two sets of outputs on your mixer then? Or will you rig up the record decks to the house PA seperately?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Does that mean having two sets of outputs on your mixer then? Or will you rig up the record decks to the house PA seperately?

His mixer has got two sets of outputs, one on balanced XLRs, the other on unbalanced jacks. He can run the output of the DJ mixer into his desk

 

[editor]

Does that mean having two sets of outputs on your mixer then? Or will you rig up the record decks to the house PA seperately?

The turntables go into the CD mixer which go into the Mackie mixer which go into:
1. my new, savings-draining PA and
2. the shitty Albert system

bees: what's the difference between balanced and unbalanced outputs?

 

[Crispy]

hoorah!

 

[editor]

Here's some of the wiring needed:

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

bees: what's the difference between balanced and unbalanced outputs?

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan02/articles/faq0102.asp#Anchor-11022

 

[editor]

So, here's my final system - with my initial budget of £500 more than doubled.

I have indeed been sucked in to the cash black hole of PA-buying!

1 x Mackie 6ch desk
2 x RCF ART 310A speakers (Active 2 way, 10" LF, 1" HF drivers, 350w Monolithic bi-amplification, 300w low frequency and 50w high frequency power.)
1 x dB SUB12 subwoofer (12" active, 400w)
2 x stands
2x Shure SM58
1x dB Technologies L-160 compact 65 W/RMS stage monitor
All cables and leads.

One Q: seeing as the Mackie has a 5-band mixer and there's 2 x tone controls for each mic channel, would I really need a 31band EQ too? And don't you need one of those handheld sound analyser things to really do it justice?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

One Q: seeing as the Mackie has a 5-band mixer and there's 2 x tone controls for each mic channel, would I really need a 31band EQ too? And don't you need one of those handheld sound analyser things to really do it justice?

Yes you do, and no you don't.

A 5 band EQ is useless for sorting feedback as it takes out too much of the frequencies you want to keep. You don't need analyser to use one, you just use your ears. There is a section explaining how to ring out a PA with one in that soundcraft guide I keep telling you to read

 

[sherriff rosco]

AS Bees` said ...use your ears..

this is good fun...

http://sft.sourceforge.net/


Download this simple little prog and then try pulling down the correct fader to the freq` you can hear!


.p.

 

[editor]

An update for you all. The PA is now up and running and sounds great.
I had to upgrade the monitor to something much beefier and I'm already looking at upgrading the mixer.

I initially planned on just putting on acoustic acts at the Albert, but bands have gone down a treat and this Friday I've got a nine piece ukulele orchestra and an ace punk/ska band, so the Mackie mixer (which is fabulous) is already running out of channels!

The budget is tight, but I think I might go for the Behringer XENYX 2222FX instead.

The build isn't up to the Mackie, but it comes with a 2 year replace-with-new guarantee which brings a lot of peace of mind. It looks great for £180 and I can't see anything else in that price bracket coming close to the functionality:

# Highly affordable, quality mixer with studio-grade 24-bit FX processor and a USB/Audio Interface for direct plug & play connectivity to your Windows or Mac computer
# Premium ultra low-noise, high headroom analogue mixer
# 8 state-of-the-art XENYX Mic Preamps comparable to stand-alone boutique preamps
# Neo-classic British 3-band EQs with semi-parametric mid band for warm and musical sound
# Studio-grade 24-bit stereo FX processor with 100 awesome presets including reverb, chorus, flanger, delay, pitch shifter and various multi-effects
# Xenyx USB/Audio Interface included to connect directly to your computer. Free audio recording and editing software downloadable at www.behringer.com
# Channel inserts on each mono channel for flexible connection of outboard equipment
# 3 aux sends per channel: 1 pre fader for monitoring, 1 pre/post fader switchable for monitoring/FX applications, 1 post fader (for internal FX or as external send)
# Peak LEDs, mute, main mix and subgroup routing switches, solo and PFL functions on all channels
# 2 subgroups with separate outputs for added routing flexibility and 2 multi-functional stereo aux returns with flexible routing
# Balanced main mix outputs with 1/4 inch jack and gold-plated XLR connectors, separate control room, headphones and stereo tape outputs
# Control room/phones outputs with multi-input source matrix; Tape inputs assignable to main mix or control room/phones outputs

http://www.dv247.com/invt/31547/

Opinions?

 

[Crispy]

Opinions?

Buy flowers for your girlfriend

 

[El Jefe]

I've always been told to avoid Behringer kit at all costs, but that might just be for DJ kit?

 

[editor]

I've always been told to avoid Behringer kit at all costs, but that might just be for DJ kit?

I've asked around and looked on review sites and most comments seem pretty positive about their mixers. The 2 year replace-as-new guarantee suggests a certain confidence, I guess (or it could be viewed that they see failure as inevitable!)

 

[El Jefe]

Probably people here who know better, so I could well be wrong. But they're regarded AFAIK as really unreliable. God knows..

 

[editor]

I've spent ages looking at desks and I'm all confused again, but there doesn't seem to be many offering the right amount of features under £350.

The Mackie is a lovely mixer, but I can't afford their 12 channel job - and, after all, I'm only doing a pub gig and won't be taking the thing on the road with me!

The bloke in BEM Music rates the Behringer for the price, and I guess the last thing he wants is me coming back and complaining at him if it goes wrong.

 

[editor]

I'm probably talking to myself here (and heck, even I'm bored with going on about mixers!), but what about this Yamaha mixer?

It looks way more rugged than the Behringer, has 10 Mics + 4 Stereo line inputs, digital FX but no output EQ, which seems a little strange.

http://www.mveducation.com/invt/40684/

I think this is what I really want though - the Mackie CFX12 MkII:
http://tinyurl.com/2p8oku

 

[free spirit]

I've used / known people use both the berringer and yamaha mixers over quite a few years with no particular problems.

loads of bands use the berringer in particular coz it's small, lightweight and does the job it's meant to do without loads of extra shit to get in the way / fuck things up.

ah - actually I've just noticed that this version does have lots of extra digital effects and usb connection for your pc. Personally I'm happy without this shit coz I'd view it as something more likely to go wrong / confuse me when it get's knocked on accidentally & I prefer a clean sound anyway plus I'd have doubts about the quality of the effects at this price.

if you're strapped for cash and don't plan to use the effects anyway, I'm sure you could pick a second hand version up for £50 or less as they're very common bits of kit.

eta - not sure if I've actually used the yamaha myself, but my old flatmate had one for his studio set up and had no complaints

 

[editor]

if you're strapped for cash and don't plan to use the effects anyway, I'm sure you could pick a second hand version up for £50 or less as they're very common bits of kit.

The Mackie has some digital effects and I never thought I'd use them, but the band on Saturday wanted echo on their lead vox and I felt quite chuffed being able to deliver it!

I've no interest in the USB wotsit though. I wish I could afford the Mackie - I've been *really* impressed with the one I've got, and their manuals are - surprisingly - fun to read too.

But you reckon the Behringer is decent enough gear, yes?