I need a small, compact PA

[Crispy]

I can see how this can become a very expensive and expansive hobby

Well, I'll get a big amp so I don't underfeed the speakers.
Hmm. I could power bigger speakers
Hmm. I could do with more bass
Oh. I need more amp power
Ooh. This lets me add more speakers
Hmm, need more channels.
Feeding back a bit too. I'll need an EQ
*flicks through catalogue*
Oooh! Smoke machines!

I don't really need a house, do I?
*pawns grandmother*

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I can see how this can become a very expensive and expansive hobby

Well, I'll get a big amp so I don't underfeed the speakers.
Hmm. I could power bigger speakers
Hmm. I could do with more bass
Oh. I need more amp power
Ooh. This lets me add more speakers
Hmm, need more channels.
Feeding back a bit too. I'll need an EQ
*flicks through catalogue*
Oooh! Smoke machines!

I don't really need a house, do I?
*pawns grandmother*

Welcome to my world

 

[sherriff rosco]

It ain`t my hobby anymore...it`s my bleedin` job!

The Sherriff as we speak is sitting in his lair surrounded by heaps of Pro-audio......might just have to go fondle some v.expensive kit in a bit to getafix!

.p.

 

[editor]

We`ve used Mackie`s a few times as well as the JBL EON`s , not my favourite sounding speakers but they do the job well enough and we`ve never had a failure. The lack of amp / limiter and speaker cables means it really is compact and the standard of modern limiters in newer active boxes means that they are pretty much indestructable? Getting that graphic to sit between the desk and active boxes allows a bit of fine tuning and if you can hook into the house system to use the subs it`ll be a doddle?

I'm trying really hard to resist my usual urge to complicate things and dedicate more and more time to building The Ultimate System TM for the price, so the Mackie active speakers look to be a nice easy solution.

Seeing as - if what I'm planning comes off - the pub will be hiring the speakers for other nights, I really do need something that's simple and straightforward to set up with minimal risk of the thing being blown up.

So for other DJs nights, I'd just set up the speakers and let them plug their mixer into that, and then use my EQ/mixer for my own nights (sometimes with small bands).

I have no car or any transport apart from a bike, so I'd want something that would fit into a cab without the cab driver demanding vast sums extra,or even be wheelable down the road for local gigs (I've got a good trolley thing, just in case!).

I *really* liked the cut of Mackie's jib in the manual that came with the mixer and am figuring that maybe matching it with their active speakers should make for a fairly no brainer combo.

But how loud do they go? Could you give me some vague idea of what you think they could power? The Gemini active units you linked to look good, but they're not much cheaper than the Mackie which seems a far better respected brand, no?

Oh, and thanks to everyone for their help here!

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Get the Mackie actives. They are well made, sound great, and go loud. If you need more bass end oooph later down the line you can get a matching sub for them. If you're hiring them out you'll make your money back.

 

[free spirit]

Nooooooooooooo!

Underpowered amps are the single biggest killer of cabs, not overpowered. You need to have headroom in your amps to stop any clipping - it's this that trashes speaker drivers, not too much power (unless you get REALLY silly).

A good rule of thumb is to have an amp with double the RMS rating of the speaker.

see loads of people say this, and it's true when in the hands of professionals, but I've found from bitter experience that all that happens if you do it your way in a non-professional party set up is someone comes along and wacks the amp right up and pops the speaker.

besides this is a budget set up he's after init.

 

[free spirit]

The only time I've seen the Mackies cut out is when they are used as wedge monitors, coz the fins of the heatsinks run vertically up the cabs, so when they are on their side they don't work quite as well. For FOH use they should be fine...

We've had major problems with heat cut out on these mackies, but that's when using them as monitors for techno nights with sweat dripping off the ceiling. Thought it was worth mentioning, particularly as they're probably only just about powerful enough for the size venue / type of gigs he's planning to use so will prob be pushing them a bit which means they'll be kicking out more heat etc.

Other problem is that 2 powered mackies are £150 over budget, the set up I suggested is £8 over budget (though mr rosco's right it would be worth having a limiter if possible, plus stands).

for sheer ease of use / simplicity the powered mackies win no question coz its only 2 units to carry / store & is plug and play, but value for money I dunno. I guess it'd be worth seeing if there are any second hand powered mackie options...

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

see loads of people say this, and it's true when in the hands of professionals, but I've found from bitter experience that all that happens if you do it your way in a non-professional party set up is someone comes along and wacks the amp right up and pops the speaker.

This is why you never, ever let DJs anywhere near the amps, and if you have any sense you tape down the master fader and gain pots on the mixer.

DJs are fucking idiots when it comes to pushing systems.

 

[sherriff rosco]

Or go for mixers with inbuilt attenuation...like the DJM600 and what we`re thinking of getting...an old Formula sound modular mixer. Inbuilt gain attentuation ( via jumpers) on all the eq`s and gain pots ... Fucking joy!
V old skool but sounds great and I am SO looking forward to the arguements with DJ`s when confronted with it!


Anyway digressing from the thread ...

.p.

 

[sam/phallocrat]

We've had major problems with heat cut out on these mackies, but that's when using them as monitors for techno nights with sweat dripping off the ceiling. Thought it was worth mentioning, particularly as they're probably only just about powerful enough for the size venue / type of gigs he's planning to use so will prob be pushing them a bit which means they'll be kicking out more heat etc.

I saw Remarc on Thursday night just gone in a venue which had the (full sized PA) powered mackies - about 5 or 6 k I reckon. It sounded pretty good with lots of rich sub but the mid/tops kept on overheating and going into protect mode. The venue was a big airy shed with only about 100 people in so I can imagine them being a bit of a nightmare in hotter venues.

My mate's got the 15" full range top end ones and he's never had problems though so maybe it depends on the model.

Oh and formula sound mixers may be well built and sound amazing but by god are they shit to mix with! Give me an allen & heath, pioneer or ecler any day . . .

 

[sherriff rosco]

Oh and formula sound mixers may be well built and sound amazing but by god are they shit to mix with! Give me an allen & heath, pioneer or ecler any day . . .

Tough...go and learn about gain structure before I let you loose on a " proper" mixer kiddo !

.p.

see I knew they`d moan even before I actualy buy one...tee hee

 

[sam/phallocrat]

Tough...go and learn about gain structure before I let you loose on a " proper" mixer kiddo !

.p.

see I knew they`d moan even before I actualy buy one...tee hee

Whatever I'm certain the guy who's (1 third of a rather nice) rig I was playing on has exactly the same thinking of you but still . . . they're a bit toss to use if you want to do anything other than fade.

(Incidentally I was using a FSM 400 - when you say modular do you mean a production mixer?)

 

[editor]

Had a long chat with the bloke in my local PA store and he strongly recommended getting the RCF ART 310A speakers instead. They're a bit more than I wanted to pay but they've got a lot more poke by all accounts - and RCF originally made Mackies in the first place apparently.

ART 310A Features

* 350 watt Monolithic bi-amplification, 300 watt low frequency and 50 watt high frequency power.
* 127 dB max SPL.
* Wide dispersion, 90 x 70 low distortion, constant directivity horn.
* 10” high power woofer, 64mm in/out aluminium coil.
* 1” neodymium, high frequency driver.
* Electronic equalization, phase alignment, limiter and protection.
* Mic/Line XLR input, XLR signal output.
* 1 comfortable top handle for easy transportation and positioning.
* Two M10 fly points and built in pole mount adaptor.

http://www.rcfaudio.com/vediMacro.p...ttivo/1674/m1/0/ARTSeriesART310-A/product.htm

£650 the pair. Whaddya reckon?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I've never used them, but the specs look impressive enough. I guess it comes down to what you want to pay - being realsitic about it, how soon are you going to get your money back from hiring them out?

 

[editor]

My main priority is putting on a great Offline night with a decent sound, and doing my tiny bit to help promote free live music nights in my 'hood. That's got to be worth the (fairly sizeable) financial risk.


*crosses fingers!

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Decent sound is always worth it

 

[editor]

The sound in the Albert on Friday night (not my night) was unbelievably awful. People were leaving it was so bad, so I've got to do something!

Quick Q: they've already got two capable subs in there. How do I wire them up to my system?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Quick Q: they've already got two capable subs in there. How do I wire them up to my system?

Depends - are they active (amps built in) or passive (amps elsewhere)?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

How do I wire them up to my system?

Ooooh, does this mean you've taken the plunge?

 

[editor]

Ooooh, does this mean you've taken the plunge?

If they've got them in stock, I'm going to get the ART speakers tomorrow although that price is going to hurt!

I think the subs are active - I'll check. If they are, how do I hook 'em up? Ditto if they're not!

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Nice one on taking the plunge, you'll get your money back hireing them, no worries

Most active subs have a built in crossover with a "loop out" to send the signal on to the hi/mid cabs, so your signal chain would be:

Mix L out -> sub L in -> L top in
Mix R out -> sub R in -> R top in

All done with XLR cables (the round three pin ones that have male and female ends, the male end points in the direction of signal flow).


If they are passive subs you need to send your mixer outputs into whatever crossover is being used. This will split the signal into hi/low bands - you'll then take the hi parts for L and R and feed it into your cabs, the low would go into whatever amps are driving the subs.


Does that make any sense?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Oh, and have you downloaded/read the Soundcraft guide I linked to earlier in the thread? I really can't stress how good it is for explaining the basics....

 

[editor]

I think so. It looks like I'm going to need some loooong leads as the two subs are scattered all over the place!

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I think so. It looks like I'm going to need some loooong leads as the two subs are scattered all over the place!

Can you use a soldering iron? It's waaaaaaaaaaay cheaper to make your own cables.

 

[editor]

Here's the full specs.

Active 2-way speaker
ACOUSTICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Frequency response 50-20 kHz
Max SPL 127 dB
Sensitivity 1w/1m -
Coverage angle 90x70
Compression driver neo 1"
Midrange -
Woofer neo 10"
Power handling -

INPUT SECTION
Input signal- Impedance bal/unbal
Input connector jack/xlr
Output signal connector xlr
Input sensitivity 0 dBu
Mic. input sensitivity -40 dBu

PROCESSOR SECTION
Crossover frequencies 1800 Hz
Selectable high pass output -
Protections DC/short cir.
Limiter fast limiter
Master volume yes
Phase switch -
Music/Voice eq -
Remote control option -

AMPLIFIER
Nominal power 350 Watt
High frequencies ab/50 Watt
Mid frequencies -
Low frequencies H/300 Watt
Cooling Convection

PHISICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Height 537mm (21,14")
Width 337mm (13,27")
Depth 315mm (12,4")
Weight 12,4 Kg.
Cabinet Composite PP
Hardware 2 M10 flying points
Handles 1 top
Pole Mount / Cap yes
Colour Anthracite grey

http://www.rcfaudio.com/vediMacro.p...ttivo/1674/m1/0/ARTSeriesART310-A/product.htm

 

[editor]

Can you use a soldering iron? It's waaaaaaaaaaay cheaper to make your own cables.

Yep. Maplins here I come!

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Yep. Maplins here I come!

Make sure you buy "Neutrik" connectors and "Van Damme" cables, anything else is a false ecconomy.

http://www.soundcraft.co.uk/download.asp?filename=pdf/palz/connections_lead1.pdf

 

[sherriff rosco]

I think so. It looks like I'm going to need some loooong leads as the two subs are scattered all over the place!

If they are active and moveable ...maybe drag `em to your stage end?

.p.

 

[editor]

If they are active and moveable ...maybe drag `em to your stage end?

.p.

I craned a look at the bass bins and they look pretty basic. They're passive and driven by an amp upstairs that also powers the 6 speakers scattered around the pub.

With a heavy heart it looks like I might have to invest in an active bass bin as it looks to be a way tricky job to wire 'em up to the ART PA I'm getting.

We also need to send a feed to the pub's speakers otherwise it's too quiet at the back so I've got to see if there's a way I can send out two feeds from the Mackie mixer.

And then there's the need for a small active monitor for the bands.... and the microphones....

*ed sobs as his savings vanish

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Welcome to the bottomless pit that is live sound