"I just feel so angry that these animal rights activists have won"

[Orang Utan]

I do think the AR movement is really interesting tactically, and I certainly won't condemn the tactics they use - of targetting support companies or shareholders for example. I'd like to see if those tactics could be used successfully against other targets.

Targetted in what way? Letter writing, carbombs, really cross words?

 

[jæd]

I indeed think it's wrong, and would have no objection to some mob justice dealing with the problem. I would love to see a world where communities deal with problems of anti-social behave themselves.

Ever heard of the "police". Guess what who the community of the people known as "the Uuu-Kay" have to deal with anti-social behaviour...?

 

[Thora_v1]

And tell me, do you think that if other people have moral objections to what you do, it would be all right for them to firebomb where you live?

Of course not. I don't think the police would be right in arresting me, or the judicial system imprisoning me, for doing something illegal (or morally objectionable), that I believe was the right thing to do. But at some point you have to accept that you believe you are right, and other people are wrong - and you have to consider how far you'll go in fighting that wrong.

 

[TeeJay]

I indeed think it's wrong, and would have no objection to some mob justice dealing with the problem. I would love to see a world where communities deal with problems of anti-social behave themselves.

Really? Go visit Lagos and I am sure you will eventually see someone getting beaten to death or burnt with a tyre around their neck for nicking something worth a dollar or so. I didn't see this when I was there but was told about it in graphic detail by a young guy who had. I could see that it had really disgusted and upset him, even tho' he was one of the tough 'beach-boys' who we were paying to protect us while we camped out on Bar Beach.

I think you have a very rose-tinted view of mob "justice" aka "lynching", and I can't believe that if you really saw it in action you would support it at all.

"...I do think the AR movement is really interesting tactically..."

If you are purely interested in the tactics of using violence why not look at far right and fascist groups as well? Or people who bomb abortion clinics?

as far as I know, no one has actually superglued their face to a tree.

Because that would be like rilly rilly cruel to trees man!

 

[Thora_v1]

Ever heard of the "police". Guess what who the community of the people known as "the Uuu-Kay" have to deal with anti-social behaviour...?

But ideally I wouldn't want the authority of the police/state imposed on myself or my community. I'd like to see a society where communities are autonomous and self-governing.

 

[tim]

there's no proof AR activists dug up anyones remains in this case...

Well there's certyainly lots of evidence that they intimidated and terrorised plenty of the living. Including the farm's cleaning lady.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Of course not. I don't think the police would be right in arresting me, or the judicial system imprisoning me, for doing something illegal (or morally objectionable), that I believe was the right thing to do. But at some point you have to accept that you believe you are right, and other people are wrong - and you have to consider how far you'll go in fighting that wrong.

Yes, but as you've decided to abrogate to yourself the right to decide whether or not other people should be threatened or assaulted, why the fuck should other people not adopt exactly the same position?

 

[Thora_v1]

Really? Go visit Lagos and I am sure you will eventually see someone getting beaten to death or burnt with a tyre around their neck for nicking something worth a dollar or so. I didn't see this when I was there but was told about it in graphic detail by a young guy who had. I could see that it had really disgusted and upset him, even tho' he was one of the tough 'beach-boys' who we were paying to protect us while we camped out on Bar Beach.

I think you have a very rose-tinted view of mob "justice" aka "lynching", and I can't believe that if you really saw it in action you would support it at all.

OK, maybe that comment was a little flippant. We live in really fucked up times, civilisation has distorted humanity.

"...I do think the AR movement is really interesting tactically..."

If you are purely interested in the tactics of using violence why not look at far right and fascist groups as well? Or people who bomb abortion clinics

Or the actions of states and governments etc etc.

I don't think violence in itself has an ideology, I see it as a tactic. And I don't see how it is possible or practical to fight a system built and maintained with violence with exclusively non-violent means.

 

[Techno303]

Talking of Animal Fash wheres R2D2 recently?

She was banned. AR29836475 was another username she adopted having caused some trouble before...

 

[Orang Utan]

I'd like to see a society where communities are autonomous and self-governing.

So would I, but I wouldn't want it to be achieved through the coercion of innocent and powerless people.

 

[Thora_v1]

Yes, but as you've decided to abrogate to yourself the right to decide whether or not other people should be threatened or assaulted, why the fuck should other people not adopt exactly the same position?

But the difference is I'm right. I'd just have to hope my side was more vicious and violent than theirs.

 

[subversplat]

A million dead guinea pigs doesn't equal one humans life.

Well it's a good thing nobody got killed to protect these Guinea Pigs then, isn't it?

But where does your argument lead? Is 1,000,000 rodents > Someone's Ford Mondeo, how about 1,000,000 > someone getting a nasty letter? Is there no value on any life other than human life, in your opinion? Do you have pets?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

But the difference is I'm right. I'd just have to hope my side was more vicious and violent than theirs.

Great. So the rest of us, we just head for the hills while the different vicious and violent factions fight it out?

Or do we, instead, have social rules which say that we don't tolerate this kind of thing? And which observe that people who think those social rules are optional are not "right" at all, because they've already shown that they're vicious and antisocial?

 

[Thora_v1]

So would I, but I wouldn't want it to be achieved through the coercion of innocent and powerless people.

Neither would I. But I don't believe people who encourage, facilitate and profit from the exploitation and destruction of humanity or the environment are innocent.

It may be a bit of a cheesy quote nowadays, but I think it applies here:
“The earth is not dying -- it is being killed. And the people killing it have names and addresses.”

 

[Orang Utan]

I don't think violence in itself has an ideology, I see it as a tactic. And I don't see how it is possible or practical to fight a system built and maintained with violence with exclusively non-violent means.

I don't want to seem patronisng, but I would think about this violence thing a little more.
Interestingly, I was once a pacifist, but (funnily enough, after shooting my mouth off here and getting an earful) have softened my line on violence cos I actually started thinking about its legitimate/illegitimate use, rather than unthinkingly spouting out the party line, which you seem to be doing here from the anarchist perspective.

 

[jæd]

But ideally I wouldn't want the authority of the police/state imposed on myself or my community. I'd like to see a society where communities are autonomous and self-governing.

Ok, so if you were in a self-governing community with its own judicial system, what would happen if you didn't agree with their decisions...?

 

[Brainaddict]

Glam it up all you like, but the people who resort to such tactics are invariably cowards and bullies whatever their politics - it's not the ideology that makes them violent, just their cuntishness.

Ditto

I don't think you make a better world by treating particular people you don't agree with as subhuman.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I don't want to seem patronisng, but I would think about this violence thing a little more.
Interestingly, I was once a pacifist, but (funnily enough, after shooting my mouth off here and getting an earful) have softened my line on violence cos I actually started thinking about its legitimate/illegitimate use, rather than unthinkingly spouting out the party line, which you seem to be doing here from the anarchist perspective.

It's not just that. It's that she's decided that she's got the right to make up any rules she likes and inflict them on other poeple, all because she's "right". And she's not considered the practical or logical consequences of this at all.

 

[Orang Utan]

I don't believe people who encourage, facilitate and profit from the exploitation and destruction of humanity or the environment are innocent.

But this would make us all legitimate targets for the unspecified action you are talking about here - this reminds me of those Islamist rebels in Algeria who took their beliefs so far that they deemed anyone not in their corps (ie the rest of the world) an infidel who should be killed.

 

[Brainaddict]

But this would make us all legitimate targets for the unspecified action you are talking about here - this reminds me of those Islamist rebels in Algeria who took their beliefs so far that they deemed anyone not in their corps (ie the rest of the world) an infidel who should be killed.

Again the orange one talks sense

 

[Thora_v1]

But this would make us all legitimate targets for the unspecified action you are talking about here - this reminds me of those Islamist rebels in Algeria who took their beliefs so far that they deemed anyone not in their corps (ie the rest of the world) an infidel who should be killed.

Exactly. Though I prefer the term "collaborator" to "infidel".

 

[Brainaddict]

Exactly. Though I prefer the term "collaborator" to "infidel".

And you've never participated in the system in any way? Pure as the driven snow, untainted by, say, buying products made in sweatshops?

HAve you become your own target?

 

[jæd]

It's not just that. It's that she's decided that she's got the right to make up any rules she likes and inflict them on other poeple, all because she's "right". And she's not considered the practical or logical consequences of this at all.

Thats because you're dealing with a tweenage webel:

I am indeed very rebellious, but intend to grow up and get a job in local government by the time I'm 30.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Mmm, but I'm not sure I don't prefer her teenage rebellion to your teenage conceit.

 

[DrRingDing]

Who do you reckon did it then?

Quite possibly...

 

[Thora_v1]

And you've never participated in the system in any way? Pure as the driven snow, untainted by, say, buying products made in sweatshops?

HAve you become your own target?

Am I going to have to start firebombing my own house?

I was joking with the collaborator thing - obviously none of us are living outside the system. It's a totality, you can't boycott capitalism. But that doesn't mean we don't have choices within that, and I guess there are no hard and fast rules as to where those lines are drawn in terms of legitimate targets.

 

[DrRingDing]

Is that wicked in the down-with-kids, actually means cool way?

.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I guess there are no hard and fast rules as to where those lines are drawn in terms of legitimate targets.

Well,there's some pretty hard and fast rules. One of these is that there are not any legitimate targets, because you do not make the rules.

 

[TeeJay]

OK, maybe that comment was a little flippant. We live in really fucked up times, civilisation has distorted humanity.

Really? Maybe lychings and mob justice are what happens when there aren't any functioning police forces, courts or systems of law? In fact "civilisation" allows more and better justice and your rose-tinted golden age before civilisation was actually pretty nasty and brutal?

I really suggest you go and spend some time in a country where there is no real functioning police or justice system. I think it will really open your eyes to what it is like to live in such a place.

I don't think violence in itself has an ideology, I see it as a tactic. And I don't see how it is possible or practical to fight a system built and maintained with violence with exclusively non-violent means.

What is the most violent thing you have ever done or had done to you? I am not a pacifist - in fact I supported the military invasion of Iraq. However, when it comes down to guinea pigs or wanting to persuade the UK public to support my political ideas, I am not interested in picking up a gun - I don't even have fights down the pub if someone starts behaving like a cunt. I will support force if it is proportionate, necessary, aimed at valid targets, for the purpose of valid objectives and there are no viable alternatives that will achieve a similar result. Your advocacy of violence as a valid tactic and your "flippant" comments about "mob justice" suggest that you neither are involved in using violence and force in a serious way nor have really thought it thought in any serious and coherent way. It sounds like you are parrotting a load of "rebel" verbiage as some kind of pose or role-play where you see yourself as some dashing anti-authority hero - little more than play-ground dressing up.

You shouldn't wait till your 30 to "grow up": you should grow up now.

 

[Thora_v1]

Well,there's some pretty hard and fast rules. One of these is that there are not any legitimate targets, because you do not make the rules.

I disagree with you on that. Who does make those rules?