butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Vote labour. Don't have principles.
Just say it FP. Say it out loud.
Just say it FP. Say it out loud.
I am considerably more left wing than you.
- Thread starter Fullyplumped
- Start date
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
So, we're nbot as 'left wing' as those in the sects because we're not in a 'sect'? What a bizarre thought. I would have no doubt that i'm much more 'left-wing' and pro working class than some of the moronic sedct memebrs who parrot their leadership.
Again another weird view, how are those of us on the Left but outside the sects 'impotent' exactly? The members of my union branch don't see their branch exec as 'impotent' even though out of 23 20 aren't in any kind of 'sect'.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Fed, FP has me on ignore, can you ask her if she is a professional please?
The existence of a central committee or whatever is a form of organisation, not a measure of how far to the left the indviduals are.
There is no doubt at all the government is cut off from accountability through the Labour Party, that is clear. But the fact is that the Labour Party has changed. It has haemorraged members and I would guess the members it has lost have been the newer, younger, more active, more relatively left wing opinioned ones.
There is the point that the government is indirectly elected by voters as opposed to party members.
But that begs the question, how legitimate is the supposed democratic process?
Last time I voted I had a choice of a (snobby racist) tory, a Labour party candidate with NO chance anyway or a LibDem. I went for the LibDem to try and get the tory out but to no avail. And the next election is going to be offering me the same "choice" so right now I am not planning to vote.
If and when New Labour is turfed out, will we see a stampede of the left into the LP like after 1979? I don't think so. I think the left has learned that the large socal democratic parties were historically important but cannot fundamentally change society to the benefit of the working class.
There is no doubt at all the government is cut off from accountability through the Labour Party, that is clear. But the fact is that the Labour Party has changed. It has haemorraged members and I would guess the members it has lost have been the newer, younger, more active, more relatively left wing opinioned ones.
There is the point that the government is indirectly elected by voters as opposed to party members.
But that begs the question, how legitimate is the supposed democratic process?
Last time I voted I had a choice of a (snobby racist) tory, a Labour party candidate with NO chance anyway or a LibDem. I went for the LibDem to try and get the tory out but to no avail. And the next election is going to be offering me the same "choice" so right now I am not planning to vote.
If and when New Labour is turfed out, will we see a stampede of the left into the LP like after 1979? I don't think so. I think the left has learned that the large socal democratic parties were historically important but cannot fundamentally change society to the benefit of the working class.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Hey - if you're active in your Union you aren't "impotent", and please don't think I meant to imply that!
As for the other point, I didn't put it very well. People not in sectarian organisations are more free to think what they like without having someone ready to expose and eject them, so they might welll be really quite lefty, but be free to be a bit unsound on various points.
But I see you're a wee bit competitive yourself, even though you're claiming to be "non-aligned!"
As for the other point, I didn't put it very well. People not in sectarian organisations are more free to think what they like without having someone ready to expose and eject them, so they might welll be really quite lefty, but be free to be a bit unsound on various points.
But I see you're a wee bit competitive yourself, even though you're claiming to be "non-aligned!"
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The fact they're losing 2000 members a week is a sign of their strength - it leaves only those really commited to the labour project. A much needed cleansing exercise.
Pol! Pot! Pol! Pot!
Pol! Pot! Pol! Pot!
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
As in business?
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
I bet they do, though. I think lefties have learned that local government is potentially powerful, and will perceive local labour groups as vulnerable. Never dismiss the attraction for lefties of long boring meetings to discuss detailed resolutions on winter nights.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
How much cheek exactly do you need to be a fulsome ugly supporter of labour and their policies yet still convince yourself that you're on the left? WMD style cheek?
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Still makes no sense? Unsound on various points? What does that mean? Do we need tablets of stone handed down from some CC to maintain decent pro-working class Leftist politics? Do we need to hear 'the line' to maintain our politics? That was oft the refrain of various trotskyists who seemd to think that outside 'their' tent was a wilderness that would engulf you?!
A 'wee bit competitive'? In what way am I?
And what do you do FP? Professional by any chance?
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
What DOES he mean?
The reason I put BA on ignore was that I found him overly stalkery, wanting to find out too much information about me in real life. Rather than get into arguments he's been on ignore for quaite some time.
I have a job, and more generally am a well informed member of the public who takes a keen interest in current affairs. Why would anyone need to know more than that?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Just say 'are you a professioanl FP?' please. I'm not saying she's a whore. Because you're not are you FP. Politicallly i think she's a pro.
Jesus, now you are playing the "reds under the bed" line a la Shirley Williams from 1984.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
My point was that people in your position don't need any of these things, and freedom of thought inevitably leads to occasional divergences from what many would consider the "correct" line. I think that's a Good Thing!Still makes no sense? Unsound on various points? What does that mean? Do we need tablets of stone handed down from some CC to maintain decent pro-working class Leftist politics? Do we need to hear 'the line' to maintain our politics? That was oft the refrain of various trotskyists who seemd to think that outside 'their' tent was a wilderness that would engulf you?!
You said earlier " I would have no doubt that i'm much more 'left-wing' and pro working class than some of the ..." - that's all I meant.
I would refer the hon, member to the reply I gave earlier.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Which one?
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Jesus, now you are playing the "reds under the bed" line a la Shirley Williams from 1984.
Not at all! I was thinking of the line "the problem with socialism is that it takes up too many evenings".
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What DOES he mean?
The reason I put BA on ignore was that I found him overly stalkery, wanting to find out too much information about me in real life. Rather than get into arguments he's been on ignore for quaite some time.
I have a job, and more generally am a well informed member of the public who takes a keen interest in current affairs. Why would anyone need to know more than that?
I refer the piece of labour shit to the register of members interests and the full disclosure tradition - a tradition that i'm sure they's like to continue in the name of democracy, freedom, informed public debate and a free Iraq.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
I was in the Militant for 13 years, never agreed with everything then, it was imho a very democratic organisation. And certainly compared with the SWP and New Labour both more democratic and inclusive.
Not 'competitive' just pointing out my experience of numerous members of some 'sects' that i've met.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No, you're here to big up labour, slag off strikers (under the guise of 'advice') and generally act like the worst sort of lost-all-principles hack.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
"All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
Apart from cutting down on bin collections, laying the foundations for the complete destruction of the NHS, reducing all 'academia' to the inhumane pursuit of targets and the education system ever more into a mere sausage factory for call-centre workers rather than an insitution to build people's personalities and understanding of the world (not to mention laying the foundations for the privatisation of State education, also) drinking bans, CCTV, more houses built on floodplanes, introduction of tolled roads, failure to renationalise companies like Thames Water who subsequently screw the taxpayer and give themselves bonuses rather than upgrade the networks, promoting patient 'choice' (which no-one wants) over a rational healthcare system...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I always thought she was a tory.
she is shes just the fabian version
is she fullypumped full of brown thats the question or is it bl-air
is she fullypumped full of brown thats the question or is it bl-air
you also forgot I.D cards, welfare reform, ( creation of a new socio-economic serrf class ) invasion of iraq, charging for rubbish collections widescale politcal fraud missing targets for climate change proping up failed priavte bank , residing over growing inequality in all sections of society, the rise of DNA data base, the extra runways no one wants , criminalisation of wide segments of society , everise in costs of 2012 olympics, staffing of olypics by unpaid staff, continous erosion of civil liberties
if britans not broken now it will be by the time the tories are finished still brign it on fuck em all
yes spot on uberd and brass .. but 'you also forgot' .. the creation of a society where the gaining of money has become the only thing of importance .. new labour as much as tory .. this has had a deeply destructive affect on society particulalry younger people who do not understand any other way of living but spiving ( trading ) and (drug ) dealing ..
FP, today i walked past my local college, there are now no extra mural evening classes, WEA courses available, instead, one has to go to something called 'a family learning centre', a private business run by immigrant entrepreneurs who also own the next door computer shop. I think the courses there are subsidised but are still more expensive and one should ask which atmosphere would be more conjucive(sic) to developing a love for knowledge, social contact, etc, I know which which one helped me towards university...
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