Hypothesis: Obsession with class will always drag the left down.

[Idaho]

Yes he does - there isnt a person in Britain who doesnt self identify with one class or another and have views about each class. IME were one of the most class obsessed countries in the world.

Having a series of vague impressions, stereotypes and prejudices is hardly a valid basis for a political movement.

I'm sure you could get just as much of a response if you asked people about fishermen or jaffa cakes.

 

[kyser_soze]

Yes, but not in the way they Left want people to be interested in it - people are obssessed with class because it's partly how they define themselves and their goals, but they aren't that bothered about analysing why they are obsessed with it, and why class exists in the first place.

There's also the way class means different things - from the old skool aristo/old monied types who look down on the new mercanilitst ruling class as being arrivistes (classic example - on returning from M Heseltine's gaff for dinner, Alan Clarke's missus was overheard saying 'It was nice but we won't be going there again - all their furniture was bought') to the idea of 'class' being synonymous with taste in clothing, decor etc.

So while plenty of people identify with the word, very few identify with it in the same way as the ideological leftists.

 

[Belushi]

Having a series of vague impressions, stereotypes and prejudices is hardly a valid basis for a political movement.
/QUOTE]

But who ever said it was?

Socialism is based on the technical Marxist analysis of class as your place in the relations of production.

 

[Crispy]

So while plenty of people identify with the word, very few identify with it in the same way as the ideological leftists.

Exactly. If you follow the rulers/workers thing through to a logical conclusion, then I'm working class. When I'm blatantly not. (private education, white collar profession etc)

 

[Belushi]

Yes, but not in the way they Left want people to be interested in it - people are obssessed with class because it's partly how they define themselves and their goals, but they aren't that bothered about analysing why they are obsessed with it, and why class exists in the first place.

There's also the way class means different things - from the old skool aristo/old monied types who look down on the new mercanilitst ruling class as being arrivistes (classic example - on returning from M Heseltine's gaff for dinner, Alan Clarke's missus was overheard saying 'It was nice but we won't be going there again - all their furniture was bought') to the idea of 'class' being synonymous with taste in clothing, decor etc.

So while plenty of people identify with the word, very few identify with it in the same way as the ideological leftists.

Yeah, couldnt agree more.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yes he does - there isnt a person in Britain who doesnt self identify with one class or another and have views about each class. IME were one of the most class obsessed countries in the world.

Not in any serious way.

 

[Belushi]

Exactly. If you follow the rulers/workers thing through to a logical conclusion, then I'm working class. When I'm blatantly not. (private education, white collar profession etc)

Thats exactly the type of confusion regarding the different meanings of the term class I'm talking about.

 

[Belushi]

Not in any serious way.

Define 'Serious'. I know lots of old working class Labour people who could talk very seriously about class.

 

[Crispy]

Thats exactly the type of confusion regarding the different meanings of the term class I'm talking about.

Right then. There's the problem. How to fix it? (anyone?)

 

[Belushi]

Right then. There's the problem. How to fix it? (anyone?)

For a start we should reclaim the Labour Party!

 

[sleaterkinney]

Define 'Serious'. I know lots of old working class Labour people who could talk very seriously about class.

And who takes them seriously?. Have they got a voice?. A political impact?. No.

 

[Crispy]

For a start we should reclaim the Labour Party!

"But you fuddyduddy old labourites are irrelevant in Modern Britain. Let's Move On and Face The Problems of Today, Not Yesterday!"

 

[Belushi]

And who takes them seriously?. Have they got a voice?. A political impact?. No.

I dont quite see what your point is?

 

[Belushi]

"But you fuddyduddy old labourites are irrelevant in Modern Britain. Let's Move On and Face The Problems of Today, Not Yesterday!"

Innit

 

[kyser_soze]

Fuck reclaiming the LP and TU movement - as someone mentioned on another thread they are both too compromised and establishment.

Something very different is needed I reckon - fuck knows what, but something that can engage the 40% of people that don't vote...

 

[Idaho]

But who ever said it was?

Socialism is based on the technical Marxist analysis of class as your place in the relations of production.

I am criticising leftist groups for basing themselves around this sort of confusion. I am saying that no meaningful leftist movement can be built until we stop talking about class.

Perhaps once some basic aims have been agreed we can re-visit class from a bullshit-free perspective.

 

[kyser_soze]

Perhaps once some basic aims have been agreed we can re-visit class from a bullshit-free perspective.

I reckon people should just come to it at their own pace - if you engage people enough about the injustice of the current system many will want to know more anyway. Just don't make understanding it a pre-condition of supporting broadly progressive movements and parties.

 

[Belushi]

I am criticising leftist groups for basing themselves around this sort of confusion. I am saying that no meaningful leftist movement can be built until we stop talking about class.

Perhaps once some basic aims have been agreed we can re-visit class from a bullshit-free perspective.

Sorry but with the class analysis of society being the basis of all lefist thought I just dont see how you can have a leftist group that doesnt talk about a class, its a tautology.

You could have an anti-capitalism group not based around one - but thats very different from a leftist group - it could be a green or a fascist group for example.

 

[Idaho]

Exactly. If you follow the rulers/workers thing through to a logical conclusion, then I'm working class. When I'm blatantly not. (private education, white collar profession etc)

Do you work to live? Do you have any political influence? Could a recession potentially leave you relying on benefits?

White collar job is irrelevant, as is the private education. These are just cultural details. Your fundamental political and economic relationship with this society is working class.

 

[Idaho]

Sorry but with the class analysis of society being the basis of all lefist thought I just dont see how you can have a leftist group that doesnt talk about a class, its a tautology.

You could have an anti-capitalism group not based around one - but thats very different from a leftist group - it could be a green or a fascist group for example.

Perhaps it is merely time for a new paradigm on the left. The old one is well over 100 years out of date.

 

[Crispy]

Do you work to live? Do you have any political influence? Could a recession potentially leave you relying on benefits?

White collar job is irrelevant, as is the private education. These are just cultural details. Your fundamental political and economic relationship with this society is working class.

Answers are Yes and No respectively.
So from an economic POV, I am. But ask 'the man on the street' and he'll say middle class.

So this is exactly the point, and why even starting a broad political argument or movement with the word 'class' is futile, becuase the word is about as precise as a playdoh ruler. Unless, somehow, the entire population is sent on a crash course in marxist economics...

 

[Belushi]

Perhaps it is merely time for a new paradigm on the left. The old one is well over 100 years out of date.

You may well be right, but I do suspect that it may just be that the paradigm know applies to the world as a whole rather than just the Western Industrial States that infomed the works of the early Socialists.

 

[Belushi]

Fuck reclaiming the LP and TU movement - as someone mentioned on another thread they are both too compromised and establishment.

Careful! your sounding like an Anarchist!

 

[kyser_soze]

Careful! your sounding like an Anarchist!

I've had a long journey on Urban from Economist reading, lefty baiter with ideas about individualism and a minor chip on my shoulder (or 'class traitor') to someone who broadly agrees with the aims and analysis but can't stand the vitriol and bitterness...

 

[Belushi]

who broadly agrees with the aims and analysis but can't stand the vitriol and bitterness...

Pretty much my position, most of the left in Britian today just reminds me of all those tiny old Protestant sects each arguing over the minutae of their faith; it seems to consist entirely of activists with no ordinary members or supporters at all.

 

[Dubversion]

Pretty much my position, most of the left in Britian today just reminds me of all those tiny old Protestant sects each arguing over the minutae of their faith; it seems to consist entirely of activists with no ordinary members or supporters at all.

another agreement here. Which is why i find the anarchist approach - on a day-to-day basis, at least - to be far preferable. Setting up community projects, arts centres, autonomous spaces, film clubs for mums and kids, that sort of thing - actually adds to the sum of human happiness in the short time, rather than squabbling about the exact shape the revolution which isn't going to happen should take.

 

[Idaho]

You may well be right, but I do suspect that it may just be that the paradigm know applies to the world as a whole rather than just the Western Industrial States that infomed the works of the early Socialists.

That's an argument I have hearing more frequently, and it comes from a noble pedegree of finding new justifications for out of date theory. I think there is some merit in it - just that it reminds me of the labour aristocracy/social fascist/embougiousment explanations, trotted out every 20 years of why the world doesn't confirm to marxist theory/predictions.

 

[Belushi]

That's an argument I have hearing more frequently, and it comes from a noble pedegree of finding new justifications for out of date theory. I think there is some merit in it - just that it reminds me of the labour aristocracy/social fascist/embougiousment explanations, trotted out every 20 years of why the world doesn't confirm to marxist theory/predictions.

What did you think of the article I linked to on the first page of this thread?

 

[Idaho]

What did you think of the article I linked to on the first page of this thread?

I thought - that's the sort of thing I would read if I had more time

 

[Belushi]

I thought - that's the sort of thing I would read if I had more time

Innit