Hypothesis: Obsession with class will always drag the left down.

[bluestreak]

hats fair enough but that makes you a Liberal rather than in any way Left wing.

but what if you want the removal of capitalism as well then? can you be a liberal AND an anti-capitalist?

 

[sleaterkinney]

The modern left is a marginalised joke - does it really engage with anyone other than it's own zealots these days?

And that's the thing that bothers me the most, It's not like a leftist party is a couple of votes short of power in the house of commons, they're no-where, and still making points that might have been relevant 20 or 30 years ago but aren't now because the world has moved on.

 

[Fruitloop]

Liberal is such a vague term these days. Marxist pedants will tell you that anarchism is liberal (and that's not completely incorrect), but fathoming what anarchism has in common with Clinton-esque liberals is far from easy. I guess anti-capitalism is the borderline of what most people would consider to be liberal.

 

[bluestreak]

...because as well liberals are seen as being another enemy of the working classes, yeah? so what you're saying that the activist left are aiming for a situation where the world is the same, but different people are in charge? if wanting fairness and equality is the same as being a wiberal apologist or something...

why would a decent human being want to sign up to a whole new bunch of ruling bastards?

 

[Fruitloop]

Beats me, dude. Personally I think that's my major yardstick for judging all things political - i.e. to what extent are you talking about a change in institutions, vs merely a change in personnel. This is why the Leninist left fetishizes the working class, because the whole project is based on the supposition that when these people are at the top of the heap somehow everything will be different.

 

[Belushi]

And that's the thing that bothers me the most, It's not like a leftist party is a couple of votes short of power in the house of commons, they're no-where, and still making points that might have been relevant 20 or 30 years ago but aren't now because the world has moved on.

I disagree I think its extrememly relevant to the world at large, just traditional notions of class are less relevant to the Industrial nations of the West.

 

[Belushi]

...because as well liberals are seen as being another enemy of the working classes, yeah? so what you're saying that the activist left are aiming for a situation where the world is the same, but different people are in charge? if wanting fairness and equality is the same as being a wiberal apologist or something...

why would a decent human being want to sign up to a whole new bunch of ruling bastards?

Why dont you actually debate my points in stead of attemptinhg to put words into my mouth? were not in sixth form

 

[In Bloom]

Religion as a social force has driven ALL the great conflicts of humanity, including the 'materialist' WW1 & 2, have used the psychology of religious confict to drive citizens to fight and what I was saying is that 'class struggle' as words, as an image and as a metaphor has that kind of power - it imbues righteousness to the cause, without having to invoke some kind of God. And everyone knows, if you fight a just cause then you will eventually win.

Ideology and religion are not necessarily the same thing.

Out of curiosity, have you ever read Militancy - Highest Stage of Alienation by the OJTR? I think you'd find it interesting if you haven't.

 

[Belushi]

but what if you want the removal of capitalism as well then? can you be a liberal AND an anti-capitalist?

TBH I cant see how you can be anti-capitalist and not have a classs analysis of society.

 

[Fruitloop]

Well, some people are coming to anti-cap from green, AR and (gulp) primmo backgrounds that don't have much of an awareness of class issues. A lot of people are reacting to more immediate situations as well - lack of opportunity, social dysfunction etc, and don't necessarily site their grievances in any particular class analysis.

 

[Belushi]

Well, some people are coming to anti-cap from green, AR and (gulp) primmo backgrounds that don't have much of an awareness of class issues. A lot of people are reacting to more immediate situations as well - lack of opportunity, social dysfunction etc, and don't necessarily site their grievances in any particular class analysis.

I'd forgotten about the Greens - you can of course be anti-cap for environmental reasons. And religious ones.

 

[Idaho]

I think much of the problem lies in the obsession with Middle Class. Being Middle Class, being called Middle Class, reading, writing, working or engaging in any pastime labelled middle class, makes you no longer a part of a tragically undefined working class, and hence no longer welcome in any left movement. The very concept of being 'in touch' with the working class is pure nonsense.

I am not saying there is no such thing as middle class - there is. However it is not a useful political decription, and the leftist obsession with it damages any progressive political movement. It is a cultural phenomenon and a distraction from the more fundamental economic and political truths.

There seems to be very few people who call themselves working class and who everyone concerned is happy about that definition. Most who would suit such a definition are unhappy with it, and many more who relish it, are considered unworthy of it.

 

[Belushi]

I am not saying there is no such thing as middle class - there is. However it is not a useful political decription, and the leftist obsession with it damages any progressive political movement. It is a cultural phenomenon and a distraction from the more fundamental economic and political truths.

I disagree, Middle Class if undamentally an economic phenomenon, a product of Capitalism.

 

[Idaho]

Yes but any leftist movement banging on about middle class and working class is missing the point that the two labels are abritrary ones slapped on a broad grey smudge.

 

[bluestreak]

Why dont you actually debate my points in stead of attemptinhg to put words into my mouth? were not in sixth form

but then later on you said i didn't have a class analysis. so right back atcha. the point that i was making is that the one made by fruitloop later on. liberalism is equally badly defined. i was always brought up tob elieve that being left-wing was about being into decency and fairness and what not, now i'm a liberal, i just don't get it.

i do have a class analysis, i'm just not rigid and uncompromising about the people i'm willing to work with to make the world a better place.

 

[Belushi]

but then later on you said i didn't have a class analysis. so right back atcha. the point that i was making is that the one made by fruitloop later on. liberalism is equally badly defined. now i'm a liberal, i just don't get it.

i do have a class analysis, i'm just not rigid and uncompromising about the people i'm willing to work with to make the world a better place.

Sorry Bluestreak but I'm having real difficulty following understanding your points?

If you have a class analysis of society then your on the left, if you dont then your not. Its the basis of all left wing thought.

 

[Idaho]

now i'm a liberal, i just don't get it.

Yeah you are a middle class liberal at that. I'm one also apparently. Something to do with thinking that leftist groups are just hobbyist subcultures with as much relevance to modern politics as the local Magic The Gathering club.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I disagree I think its extrememly relevant to the world at large, just traditional notions of class are less relevant to the Industrial nations of the West.

My point was specifically about this country, what are you on about?

 

[Belushi]

Yes but any leftist movement banging on about middle class and working class is missing the point that the two labels are abritrary ones slapped on a broad grey smudge.

I disagree. I think what we have here is the usual confusion about what class means; in a technical sense its about your relations to the means of production - the boss class control the means of production and everyone else doesnt. IRL its a lot more confusing!

 

[bluestreak]

so if i believe that world is divided into economic classes, but that they aren't as rigid or as self-identifying as they used to be, am i on the left?

i have never said that there is no such thing as class, i've said that people don't perceive there to be class in the traditional sense and that the inverse snobbishness of some of the left alienates people who would otherwise participate more. which i why i want to left to stop playing oneupmanship and start accepting that in order to appeal to people (who may socio-economically be in category that once upon a time was called working class but no longer identify themselves that way) they're going to have to stop using classism as a major tool.

 

[Belushi]

My point was specifically about this country, what are you on about?

Given as you specifically said 'the world as moved on' I dont think my response is innapropriate.

And that's the thing that bothers me the most, It's not like a leftist party is a couple of votes short of power in the house of commons, they're no-where, and still making points that might have been relevant 20 or 30 years ago but aren't now because the world has moved on.

 

[kyser_soze]

Ideology and religion are not necessarily the same thing.

Out of curiosity, have you ever read Militancy - Highest Stage of Alienation by the OJTR? I think you'd find it interesting if you haven't.

Cheers for that link - skimmed it and it looks interesting. Will have a proper read this evening.

I disagree, Middle Class if undamentally an economic phenomenon, a product of Capitalism.

I disagree - even in fuedal times there was a merchant class/freemen who weren't beholden to a feudal Lord and who were urban, relied on commerce, education and money to support themselves and led consumer lifestyles (i.e. they had surplus exchange and spent it on consumer goods) 'Middle class' is an economic phenonmenon - but not uniquely capitalist.

 

[Idaho]

I disagree. I think what we have here is the usual confusion about what class means; in a technical sense its about your relations to the means of production - the boss class control the means of production and everyone else doesnt. IRL its a lot more confusing!

If you are going to be traditional about it then there is only ruling class and working class.

 

[Belushi]

If you are going to be traditional about it then there is only ruling class and working class.

No, I meant in the sense that the man in the street means when he talks about class.

 

[Belushi]

I disagree - even in fuedal times there was a merchant class/freemen who weren't beholden to a feudal Lord and who were urban, relied on commerce, education and money to support themselves and led consumer lifestyles (i.e. they had surplus exchange and spent it on consumer goods) 'Middle class' is an economic phenonmenon - but not uniquely capitalist.

I disagree with you that the Mercantilist class was the same as the Bourgeoise - but thats a boring technical arguement I aint going into while Im meant to be working

 

[sleaterkinney]

No, I meant in the sense that the man in the street means when he talks about class.

The man in the street doesn't talk about class, doesn't know and doesn't care about it, that's the point bluestreak is trying to make.

 

[Idaho]

The man in the street doesn't talk about class, doesn't know and doesn't care about it, that's the point bluestreak is trying to make.

Exactly.

And the few men in the street that do talk about it are as confused as everyone else.

 

[kyser_soze]

I disagree with you that the Mercantilist class was the same as the Bourgeoise - but thats a boring technical arguement I aint going into while Im meant to be working

 

[Belushi]

so if i believe that world is divided into economic classes, but that they aren't as rigid or as self-identifying as they used to be, am i on the left?

I should think so, but I suspect from your arguement here that your applying the situation in the UK globally which IMHO is a big mistake - I'd argue that globaly the system is ever more rigid - its just that we're on the side benefiting the most anbd dont see it.

Did you read the link I posted in my first post about gloabalisation and Marx's Reserve Army if Labour? V. interesting I thought.

 

[Belushi]

The man in the street doesn't talk about class, doesn't know and doesn't care about it, that's the point bluestreak is trying to make.

Yes he does - there isnt a person in Britain who doesnt self identify with one class or another and have views about each class. IME were one of the most class obsessed countries in the world.