Hybrid Bear - Dead

[Louloubelle]

but eh stupid question how is that dogs ( and cats to a lesser degree) have so many distinct variations for the one species, i know we've been breeding them for a long time, but I guess if we could tame lions and breed em quick we could make different varieties which isn't the same as propagating ligers etc

IMMIC It's to do with the categorisation into genus, species and sub-species.

so bears belong to the genus Ursidae

species within a genus can mate and produce hybrid offspring, so a polar bear can mate with a grizzly bear and produce a hybrid.

A bear cannot mate with a lion or any other felid, or any animal from any other genus and produce a hybrid offspring.

Within the genus you have species, so a polar bear is on species and a grizzly bear is another species within the genus.

Now, within species you can have sub-species. For example there are several different species of lion. A barbary lion can mate with an african lion and produe a viable offspring that is not a hybrid, as the animals are subspecies within the same same species (leo). Their genus is felidae

If you are interested in checking out ramdom mutations that can cause evolutionary change some good examples are white tigers (not really white and not albinos) and king cheetahs. There are not subspecies of lion and cheetah they are mutations within the existing species / subspecies.

if the savannha was to change to rain forest then king cheetahs with their dark banded fur would have an advantage over ordinary cheetahs, so they would be more likely to survive, breed, and pass on their genes.

http://users.aristotle.net/~swarmack/kngchtah.html

 

[TeeJay]

...species within a genus can mate and produce hybrid offspring...

Some species within a genus can mate prodcuding sterile hybrids but the vast majority do not - members of different species are either incapable of reproducing, or will produce infertile offspring - a very common (although not the only) way that "species" are defined in fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

 

[Louloubelle]

Some species within a genus can mate prodcuding sterile hybrids but the vast majority do not - members of different species are either incapable of reproducing, or will produce infertile offspring - a very common (although not the only) way that "species" are defined in fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

That's pretty much what I'm saying isn't it? We all know that lions very rarely mate with tigers and that wolves rarely mate with dogs, etc. but it does happen and when it does it will produce a hybrid that, if it survives, is either sterile of has a reduced capacity for reproduction.

Check my earlier links Teejay, for examples of some of the hybrids resulting from mating within genus.

 

[lostexpectation]

IMMIC It's to do with the categorisation into genus, species and sub-species.

so bears belong to the genus Ursidae

species within a genus can mate and produce hybrid offspring, so a polar bear can mate with a grizzly bear and produce a hybrid.

A bear cannot mate with a lion or any other felid, or any animal from any other genus and produce a hybrid offspring.

Within the genus you have species, so a polar bear is on species and a grizzly bear is another species within the genus.

Now, within species you can have sub-species. For example there are several different species of lion. A barbary lion can mate with an african lion and produe a viable offspring that is not a hybrid, as the animals are subspecies within the same same species (leo). Their genus is felidae

If you are interested in checking out ramdom mutations that can cause evolutionary change some good examples are white tigers (not really white and not albinos) and king cheetahs. There are not subspecies of lion and cheetah they are mutations within the existing species / subspecies.

if the savannha was to change to rain forest then king cheetahs with their dark banded fur would have an advantage over ordinary cheetahs, so they would be more likely to survive, breed, and pass on their genes.

http://users.aristotle.net/~swarmack/kngchtah.html

yes i know all that why isn't there more varieties within the one speicies?

 

[Louloubelle]

yes i know all that why isn't there more varieties within the one speicies?

There are plenty of different sub-species within most species.

Using cats and dogs as an example, humans have selectively bred these animals for centuries to emphasise what we percieve as favourible aspects in each breed and new breeds are recognised all the time.

For wild animals, sub species evolve due to random mutations in relation to how those mutations either give the animal an advantage or disadvantage in relation to its environment as Darwin observed in relation to the finches on the Galapagos Islands

http://www.rit.edu/~rhrsbi/GalapagosPages/DarwinFinch.html

 

[TeeJay]

That's pretty much what I'm saying isn't it? We all know that lions very rarely mate with tigers and that wolves rarely mate with dogs, etc. but it does happen and when it does it will produce a hybrid that, if it survives, is either sterile of has a reduced capacity for reproduction.

Check my earlier links Teejay, for examples of some of the hybrids resulting from mating within genus.

My point is that most species cannot mate at all. There are some exceptions where closely related species have been known to mate but this not common.

You seemed to be stating that species from within the same genus can mate - but typically they cannot - this is often used as one of the defining features of being separate species in the first place (not being able to interbreed).

 

[Jonti]

An animal species is a reproductive community of populations (reproductively isolated from others) that occupies a specific niche in nature. That's just the best way of describing something we instinctively recognise, an animal species. Turns out it's not to do with the ability to merge genetic material as such.

Breeding between species is rampant among plants and less complex animals that lack a backbone. It's only among the higher mammals ... where it remains fairly rare.

 

[k_s]

True, reproductive isolation may be due to differences in breeding cycles rather than genetic incompatibility.

 

[Jonti]

True, reproductive isolation may be due to differences in breeding cycles rather than genetic incompatibility.

Or indeed geographical isolation; incompatible mating rituals; wrong pheromones and so on. Anything that can serve to fence off (metaphorically speaking) a breeding population.

Which is almost where we started -- with the observation that climate change may be knocking holes in the fence between grizzlies and polar bears.

Climate change is a crazy gamble to take with our planet. But given that it's well under way, does the consequent interbeeding of previously separate advanced mammalian species matter? Or should the hybrids be protected in the same way as the original parent species*?

* No and Yes, in that order (imho)

 

[Louloubelle]

I just felt the need to post this

 

[k_s]

Or indeed geographical isolation; incompatible mating rituals; wrong pheromones and so on. Anything that can serve to fence off (metaphorically speaking) a breeding population.

Which is almost where we started -- with the observation that climate change may be knocking holes in the fence between grizzlies and polar bears.

Climate change is a crazy gamble to take with our planet. But given that it's well under way, does the consequent interbeeding of previously separate advanced mammalian species matter? Or should the hybrids be protected in the same way as the original parent species*?

* No and Yes, in that order (imho)

All biodiversity is good- its like fish food for evolution.

Species never stay the same forever, crying about existing species being lost due to interbreeding seems a little daft as none of their genes will actually be lost, just shuffled around in order to create new stuff.

As mentioned earlier, a significant problem with hybridisation and interbreeding is that conservation laws may not protect hybrid species- these conservation laws were evidently created by people with no knowledge of the basic principal of conservation. The red wolf is not protected by US law, for instance, as it is a hybrid species. I suspect red wolves neither know nor care that they are hybrids, they probably just don't want to die.

 

[Louloubelle]

I thought that the red wolf was on annex I of CITES, so cannot be traded commerically unless pre-convention?

I'm pretty sure this is right, I was talking to somone about the red wolf only the other day

AFAIK there is also a controversy about whether or not the animal is considered a hybrid, with most authorities believing that it's not a hybrid but that hybridisation with coyote presents a significant risk for the survival of the species ITW

 

[ViolentPanda]

There are plenty of different sub-species within most species.

I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that zoological geneticists established that the polar bear is the "base" from which the other ursids developed, which might explain why it more readily hybridised with another ursid sub-species.

 

[boskysquelch]

http://www.redlist.org/search/details.php?species=3747

 

[boskysquelch]

& http://www.geol.umd.edu/~candela/pbevol.html

 

[TeeJay]

So where are the Teddy Bears?

 

[boskysquelch]

So where are the Teddy Bears?

We also know that approximately 20 million years ago in subtropical Europe, a bear about the size of a small terrier existed. It is now referred to as Ursavis elemensis.

they didn't make-it I'm afraid.

http://www.7thfloormedia.com/projects/exwork/best/bearden/evolve.htm

 

[k_s]

I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that zoological geneticists established that the polar bear is the "base" from which the other ursids developed, which might explain why it more readily hybridised with another ursid sub-species.

As this tree shows, black bears are the most primitive of bear species, ie. they were the first to diverge from other bears.

 

[boskysquelch]

http://http://www.jgi.doe.gov/science/highlights/noonan0705tree.gif

erm


eta:: not that I actually give a fuck coz I already wasted 2 minutes producing that evidence already....durrr!

 

[Jonti]

Two species become one in the lab

Back to the topic of hybrid species (tho' not, admittedly, Grizzly/Polar bear hybrids) here's an interesting article from BBC Science/Nature ...

Two butterfly species have been bred in the lab to make a third distinct species, the journal Nature reports.

In a species, individuals need to be capable of interbreeding to produce fertile offspring.

The study demonstrates that two animal species can evolve to form one, instead of the more common scenario where one species diverges to form two.

 

[tim]

"look at that bear johnny, have you ever seen anything like that before"

"never mikey, pass me my rifle"

I hope the hunters had the foresight to pack a couple of tins of condensed soup, and some Heinz Ketchup before they went on their jaunt


Bear Meat Loaf
3 lbs ground bear meat 1 lb ground beef (fatty)
3 cans Campbell's French onion soup
3 eggs
1 1/2 cups of bread crumbs
1 can mushrooms 8 oz or larger
1/4 cup ketchup
garlic powder (to taste)
black pepper (to taste)

This recipe is very simple heck I invented it so how hard can it be.
First drain the broth out of 2 cans of the French onion soup and set aside. Next put the other ingredients (except 3rd can of soup) into a mixing bowl. Add the onions from the two cans of soup and mix well.
Put into roasting pan and pour broth and the third can of onion soup over top. Set oven at 350 degrees and cook for 2 1/2 hours or until done.
Make sure that the meat is thoroughly cooked.
The guys at the dinner loved it I hope it helps somebody out.
Daniel J. Kalagian Milford Ct.

From here