Human Biology and Vegetarianism - Are we meant to be vegi?

[Louloubelle]

Primates are not "our ancestors". We share ancestors with other primates. Primates have digestive systems that vary significantly. Some primates are omnivorous and have very similar digestive systems to ourselves.

Chimps eat meat for a number of reasons. Chimps pig out and consume a lot of monkeys and other meat while female chimps are pregnant and when baby moneys are plentiful, for a couple of months every year year. Female chimps who eat a lot of meat while pregnant produce offspring who are stronger and more likely to survive than chimps who eat less meat.

There are other primates, monkeys, gibbons and baboons, that eat diets high in animal protein, it's not just chimps.

eta

I forgot mandrills
They eat meat too

 

[8ball]

The answer, by the way, is 'no'.

There are plenty of good arguments for being veggie, though.

 

[Louloubelle]

I eat small vertebrates so ner

eta

another great ling from that veggie site

http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1b.shtml

 

[dash_two]

That's a truly revolting looking animal. It's like a miniature wino.

 

[Louloubelle]

That's a truly revolting looking animal. It's like a miniature wino.

funny you should say that

 

[ska invita]

Primates have digestive systems that vary significantly.

Really? How significantly do they vary?

Some primates are omnivorous and have very similar digestive systems to ourselves.

Yeah, but they eat up to 3% meats at max. If they have similiar digestive systems to us, what percentage is suitable in humans would you suggest? More than 3%?

At most "omnivorous" primates eat up to 3% meat (including insects and grubs: much easier to digest than fibrous flesh) - to put it another way different primates eat between 97% and 100% herbivorous diets. How can an animal that eats at max 3% meat be said to have a digestive system well equiped to eat meat?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

1) If you look at those numbers they are mostly (if not all) on a yearly basis. Thier diet varies throughout the year. Their digestive systems can handle massively larger proportions of meat at any one time.

2) Herbivores can't handle the small percentages that you're talking about.

3) Where was the source for 3% again? Which primates are we talking about?

 

[gorski]

Methodically speaking, we [Humans as such] have evolved to see what we want to see ["Seek and ye shall find!" (where you search for it)]... It's oh so clear in this thread with many a poster doing precisely that: "search" for "facts" which will support the prejudice we have come to feel comfortable with, but ignore how you got there and never account for it...

What if we chose just the "uncomfortable" so called facts, like gorillas eating their faeces regularly?

[Sometimes I despair with all the "evolutionary" nonsense trying to pose as if they have God's balls in their hands and behaving like the new age Inquisition...]

 

[dash_two]

A lot of noise, not much signal, gorski.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I think, he may correct me, that he means:

"People are trying to fit facts into theories, searching for supporting ones and omitting those that disagree."

 

[dash_two]

Possibly, comes across more like "You lot are wasting your time".

Well sure, that's what the internet's for.

 

[Jonti]

No, that's just sooooo wrong!!

The Internet Is For Porn!

 

[dash_two]

Only bonobo action on this thread, please. (Purely anthropological interest.)

 

[gorski]

A proposal...

I think a wee bit more humility would be in order, on the part of those who think they've got it all figured out - these are but theories, not dogmas and deffo not "absolute knowledge"...

A varied, healthy diet, depending on the climate, availability and one's own general genetic group, plus specific physiology etc., then the type of activity overall and a specific season, job, class [money does count in this!!] etc. etc. etc.

A good analysis should take a variety of Human experiences into consideration, as some have already warned.

Also, Historically, as our food production/societal relations changed, we can see skeletal and other changes due to more protein being consumed and so forth...

New scientific and technological innovations playing a part now [say, new rice with vitamin A etc.], as opposed to the previous eras etc. etc.

New generations taking supplements much more than before and exercising in a planned manner, since the advent of the "sedentary culture" etc. etc.

They all play a role, not to mention the pollution, smoking, too much drinking, loadsa different kinds of drugs consumed, stress thanx to our hierarchical and exploitative socio-economic, political, intimate and other relationships doused in insecurity etc. etc. etc.

Taking things in strict separation from the historical, economic and other perspectives/"moments" of the whole equation obfuscates more than it illuminates, I think... Especially when some are trying to talk "absolutes", of "evolutionary" or any other kind...

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Also, Historically, as our food production/societal relations changed, we can see skeletal and other changes due to more protein being consumed and so forth...

Got any further reading on that one? I know improved nutrition (generally) results in taller/bigger people but don't know of anything in depth on the topic.

 

[gorski]

When I separated from my ex "How to live longer and feel better" by Linus Pauling went to her, so can't get the data. But remember seeing it there...

If memory serves: after we started domesticating animals and eating much more meat [after settling and farming for a long time] people started to grow and fast.

Similar changes [admittedly anecdotally] can be observed with kids who have grown up during a war [see a recent ex-YU one].

An interesting thing, when I went to Malta: when one sees the Maltese Knights armour... it's tiny...

 

[dash_two]

Humans generally got smaller compared to hunter/gatherers after they adopted settled agriculture. Also, their teeth show more signs of wear because of grit from grinding stones finding its way into flour.

You would expect pastoralists keeping herds of animals not to have shrunk in stature and of course pastoralist 'mampires' in Northern Europe and parts of East Africa independently began to retain lactose tolerance into adulthood.

Interesting question about suits of armour and how big people were in medieval times. I read somewhere that suits of armour look a bit misleading, because in real life the plates would have been spaced out more over the body than when they're displayed on a stand.

The upper classes must have been taller than everyone else though as they were better fed. Class-by-height distinctions down to nutritional differences were still noticeable in Britain during the 1940s and even later.

 

[ska invita]

Humans generally got smaller compared to hunter/gatherers ....The upper classes must have been taller than everyone else though as they were better fed. etc.

interesting stuff, although its not about quantity but quality - if you go down to Holland and Barrrets and buy their dodgy protein formulas you'll bulk up - doesnt mean its good for you - nor that your biological make up is well designed to deal with it, which is the real question at hand.

No doubt new generations of Chinese and Japanese children are growing taller than their parents, having been fed more 'red' meet, and being introduced to an agressive marketing campaign to drink growth stimulating cow's milk [mainly from the US and European dairy market as it happens] .

[this table above doesnt show how much the US is trying to influence Asians into buying their cows milk products - an important 'growing' market, although the US has succesfully cornered the ice cream market in Japan!
US dairy product exports]

All of which doesn't mean the biological sysytem of Asian people is best designed to deal with their new diet of cows milk products, whatever the effects on average population height. In fact, it is one of those cross-cultural facts that East Asian people find that Europeans smell of cheese, unacustomed as they are to a dairy diet - oh well, thats the free market for you - soon we'll all be eating cow milk products in our global village eh?!

Humans are fantastically adaptable and can probably evolve to deal with such changes over time - thats not really the point - the question is what would our/their bodies prefer if they had a choice?

okay, 8am,time to stop being mash up and go to bed also probably time to act with "a wee bit more humility" eh, gorski? Sorry if this is coming across arrogant ( if you are refering to me) - this has been one of the most enlightening threads for me - I've learnt a lot - hope I haven't come across as know it all - far from it, its been nothing but educational, although it seems like I've taken a different meaning away from the evidence... such is life.