Huge protests in Bangkok and around Thailand
- Thread starter fela fan
- Start date
I presume you mean the army chief, not the leader of the PAD! I think the latter is too young to have done such a thing 30 years ago.
The PAD people have now managed to get phuket and hat yai airports closed.
I don't know what will happen here, but these people have assumed a voice greater than the ballot box. They are demanding the resignation of the prime minister, who was voted in by some majority by the thai electorate. By implicit understanding they have said they represent the voice of the people more than the people's xs on voting day.
I hope these demonstrators lose. I hope they sink in their own shit.
The country has moved on in big ways in the last 20 years. The restraint shown by those in power is amazing.
I don't know what will happen here, but these people have assumed a voice greater than the ballot box. They are demanding the resignation of the prime minister, who was voted in by some majority by the thai electorate. By implicit understanding they have said they represent the voice of the people more than the people's xs on voting day.
I hope these demonstrators lose. I hope they sink in their own shit.
The country has moved on in big ways in the last 20 years. The restraint shown by those in power is amazing.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
So basically they've achieved the kind of results that the ClimateCamp and PlaneStupid people in the UK have wet dreams about?
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Apparently rail workers have gone on strike in support of the protest and for better conditions.
Hmmm. Odd one this. Not as cut and dried as it may appear. Rightwing reaction coupled with a leftwing workers' revolt for improved conditions? Could this protest yet turn towards a more progressive end?
Hmmm. Odd one this. Not as cut and dried as it may appear. Rightwing reaction coupled with a leftwing workers' revolt for improved conditions? Could this protest yet turn towards a more progressive end?
purves grundy
ambient clown remix
I think 'right wing joins left wing' tells us very little. More like those groups with grievances which they previously believed were pointless (and damaging to their careers) to air now, in a time of open revolt, feel they have their best chance to present their claims and perhaps have them addressed, and possibly with lower costs.
This is exactly what happened last time there was a democratically elected government - one with a massively increased majority - and the same group(s) of people are behind it.
And this is the problem, fela. Last time you supported them in the effort to dislodge the government and cheered the removal of the administration; this time you hope they go home and that the government doesn't re-fuck with the constitution after it's been fucked with by the military.
And in the meantime, the whole concept of democracy in Thailand is relegated to a secondary position, behind the will of those who don't like the result of any particular election and have the means to subvert it.
And as you point out and is well known, Thailand has a less than pristine history in this regard.
The thing about democracy is that you don't get to pick and choose as you go along - unless constitutional means (e.g. impeachment,) are brought into play - you get to engage in the democratic process and kick yourself when you lose general elections, go back to the policy drawing board and activate the grass roots, district work that - after four years - will be remembered in 4 years time at the next "big vote".
This is the argument I put forward when you were cheering the removal of Thaksin - that it was bad for Thailand, predominately becuase it would legitimise and set future precedent for similar expectations of "instant gratification" on the part of those who value power more than they value the country's longer-term, democratic progress.
And here again, we have the same group(s) of individuals feeling entitled to remove the current democratically elected government - elected even after they were suppressed, harrassed, banned and hounded for over a year after the coup - and after the constitution re-written to their detriment.
Frankly, if the PAD seem unable to accept this election, I begin to think those behind the movement actually model themselves on the Burmese military regime rather than any genuinely democratic values. It seems that they will just keep ignoring the democratic process until some kind of (s)election elicits the results they desire.
It does not bode well for Thailand. It didn't in 2006 and it's a real moment of truth for the future of democracy in Thailand two years later.
Woof
elbows
Well-Known Member
Yeah.
And who the fuck is running the "king" these days.
The doddery old twat seems to be completely out of touch and being manipulated by others.
It's very sad that Thailand seems poised to enter yet another decade or more of increasing instability.
Let's see.
Woof
From elbow's BBC link:
It's inevitably the arrogance of the elite that opposes the emergence of democracy in developing economies. It's the only way to postpone the spread of the (generally) more egalitarian will of the ordinary people.
As I've posted, look to HK as a model for the suppression of democracy by an elite. The howls of rage against "descending into a welfare state" are spinechilling.
A system run by the elite that taxes the working class and spends that public income securing services from private enterprise run by the elite is inevitably corrupt.
Democracy, imperfect as it is, by definition inevitably favours the masses.
And in emerging democracies, anything that undermines the process of democracy - particularly the electoral process - is a regressive step.
And specifically in the case of Thailand, the deposing of Thaksin - unpalatable as he was - has provided immense political capital to those with the means (and think about what that means,) to thwart the democratic will of the people - and to present this kind of political transition as a legitimate methodology.
Woof
It's inevitably the arrogance of the elite that opposes the emergence of democracy in developing economies. It's the only way to postpone the spread of the (generally) more egalitarian will of the ordinary people.
As I've posted, look to HK as a model for the suppression of democracy by an elite. The howls of rage against "descending into a welfare state" are spinechilling.
A system run by the elite that taxes the working class and spends that public income securing services from private enterprise run by the elite is inevitably corrupt.
Democracy, imperfect as it is, by definition inevitably favours the masses.
And in emerging democracies, anything that undermines the process of democracy - particularly the electoral process - is a regressive step.
And specifically in the case of Thailand, the deposing of Thaksin - unpalatable as he was - has provided immense political capital to those with the means (and think about what that means,) to thwart the democratic will of the people - and to present this kind of political transition as a legitimate methodology.
Woof
(From the BBC, lower paranthesis are my additions.)
I'm willing to argue the toss as to whether free, national elections would be possible in China next year (in HK, they are long overdue, but for China - it's another thread), but in a country such as Thailand, at this stage in its democratic development, for elites to argue that those who consistently vote against their policies are, essentially, too stupid to be allowed to vote, is the most insidious kind of "sense of entitlement".
*shudders*
Woof
Jessie, you seem more occupied with my reactions to the prevailing issues and your steadfast warnings over the issues than the issues themselves. You won't give it a rest banging on about my reactions to what's happening in my adopted country.
You don't live here, i do. I love the concept of democracy as much as anybody. You did not live through all those years of thaksin, watching him ripping the country up, creating division where there was none. I just wonder back in the thatcher days how many people would have cheered were she to have been unseated from power by people power.
It's all about how 'wrong' i am for my thinking towards events. And yes, i supported what happened two years ago, even if with a reticence. My heart overrode my head alright? Now, today, the situation is not the same, and i change my thinking accordingly. For me personally the context is such that my head can override my heart. And that samak and some of his henchmen he put in power are fucking thugs with murder and extreme pillaging from the very 'poor' you keep supporting, on their hands
You never stop going on about what the 'poor' of thailand want, as if you can speak for about ten million people. You never stop going on about how important democracy is. You seem to be talking from a book, not from practicalities. Thaksin was only able to get power in the first place by corrupting democratic concepts and systems.
Thailand has survived very well with dozens of coups in its modern history. You overplay and exaggerate what disasters await the country if democracy is not nurtured and cradled. This country has moved forward at its own pace. Yes, the elites have too much say, and dish out injustice, but that is what elites do everywhere.
The issues are important, not your emotional reactions to them, or my emotional reactions to them.
Right now a few thousand people are trying to force their say on the nation. Two years ago it was several times that figure, and the country was deeply divided. The two situations are very different. People are the most important thing in life, not nebulous systems like 'democracy', or whatever.
(From the BBC, lower paranthesis are my additions.)
I'm willing to argue the toss as to whether free, national elections would be possible in China next year (in HK, they are long overdue, but for China - it's another thread), but in a country such as Thailand, at this stage in its democratic development, for elites to argue that those who consistently vote against their policies are, essentially, too stupid to be allowed to vote, is the most insidious kind of "sense of entitlement".
*shudders*
Woof
They're fucking politicians man, what do you expect? And they're from a country that practises a hierarchical way of life. How come you're surprised? Have you only just started hearing what thai politicians and elites spout on about?
You should have heard thaksin and his brand of pure arrogance. We did, for fucking years. Oh, but wait, i forgot, he was voted into power and therefore whatever he did, he could not be usurped. However much he stole from the nation, however much he divided a nation's people into two camps, however much he did to unleash the nightmare in the southern provinces, he must be allowed to keep his power. Democracy is more important. And he did good deeds for the poor, while of course stealing from them.
It's very sad that Thailand seems poised to enter yet another decade or more of increasing instability.
Let's see.
Woof
Pah. Who began that instability? And who encouraged it for a decade? Who has ushered in the good old capitalist ways of the west, including rampant debt amongst the farmers, that are crushing more stable values that kept society intact?
Who pitted thai against thai? Who pissed on their key concept of compromise and compassion?
Are you even aware of many thai people's reactions to thaksin's fall from power, i mean those that previously supported him and voted for him?
Not yet. But they did two years ago.
Despite jessie's prognosis of such doom and gloom, i think the whole situation shows how much thailand has moved on in recent times. I also think the country is perfectly strong enough to get through these turbulent times. I say that because of the thai people's character. The real pulse in the nation at the moment is that they are bored stiff of the PAD's demonstrations, they want to just get on with life, and there is sympathy for all those shopkeepers, taxi drivers and so on who can't earn their daily bread.
It's an interesting comparison you make actually. People power seems to be stronger here in thailand, yet apparently this country has a weaker hold on democracy...
Well, I do disagree with your point of view on this.
It's called democracy - if people didn't like Thaksin or his policies, they could have voted him out, they didn't they returned him with a hugely increased majority.
Misguided support IMO.
Most if not all politicians arew cunts - democratic elections allow people to keep them on their toes and/or change them.
I don't need to speak for them, they spoke resoundingly for themselves at the ballot box. Much as you may dislike Thaksin, it's unlikely that he's any more corrupt than any other politician in Thailand and independent observers noted that the elections he won were, successively, the freest and cleanest in Thai history.
I believe your refusal to see the dangers are misguided.
I disagree with you again. As explained, I see the situation as pretty much identical - the same elitest group, yet again, trying to undermine the democratic process until they get the result they desire.
I think that sustaining and strengthening democracy in Thailand is what the majority of the people wish and will be the best thing for the majority.
Woof
I expect them to engage in the legal democratic process and not to subvert it repeatedly in order to gerrymander their desired outcome.
Am I surprised that they are failing to adhere to the rules? Of course not. I am somewhat surprised, however, at your support of the subjugation of the process if it looks likely to promote an outcome that you favour?.
Well, yes.
He's a politician, maaaaaan, what do you expect?
And you and others may not have liked him, but the vast majority of those voting in Thailand in 2005 supported him. Why should the minority that lost the election get to chuck him out - against the will of the majority?
Woof
Shaft?
But again, I point out that the majority did not agree with you, as evidenced by the outcome of the 2005 election.
Yes.
Once Thaksin was removed, they elected a government that they well knew was closely allied to Thaksin, with a PM who was widely deemed as Thaksin's proxy.
Seems pretty clear what the majority want. It's the PAD, once again, that cannot accept the result and seems hopeful of, yet again, getting its own way despite the will of the majority.
Woof
Jessie, i have to agree with just about all you say really.
My heart gets in the way though.
If i refused to see dangers, then i would be misguided. But i don't refuse. I am worried really about how this will pan out, and i am guided by my mind when i say that i really really do not want PAD to force samak into resignation. For just about all the reasons you say.
Forgive my heart really is all i can offer in reply to you just right now. I once followed and attempted to understand politics in all its 'glory'. I took a turning away from it about the time i moved to chiang mai (2002), being too fed up with it. It's ugly. I'd rather let my heart override the mind. Let it off its leash so to speak.
I was born on one piece of earth, but i have chosen to live my life on another piece of earth, and it would be wrong to say that i am not somewhat disturbed by current events. Maybe i was wrong in my reactions back in 2006 in hindsight, but they were born from the heart. But that doesn't mean i can't recognise things better this time round. Like i said, the two contexts in terms of living here and seeing things pan out are not the same. The country WAS split last time, i believe most thais had in their admirable way already moved on since the last election. However the black hand that leads the PAD demonstrators is feverishly, and pathetically, at work unfortunately.
Apologies for any negative barbs i may have sent your way. As usual, even when i've given up on the papers, fucking politics barges into one's consciousness... but yes, democracy for nations like thailand is the best thing. Agreed man!
My heart gets in the way though.
If i refused to see dangers, then i would be misguided. But i don't refuse. I am worried really about how this will pan out, and i am guided by my mind when i say that i really really do not want PAD to force samak into resignation. For just about all the reasons you say.
Forgive my heart really is all i can offer in reply to you just right now. I once followed and attempted to understand politics in all its 'glory'. I took a turning away from it about the time i moved to chiang mai (2002), being too fed up with it. It's ugly. I'd rather let my heart override the mind. Let it off its leash so to speak.
I was born on one piece of earth, but i have chosen to live my life on another piece of earth, and it would be wrong to say that i am not somewhat disturbed by current events. Maybe i was wrong in my reactions back in 2006 in hindsight, but they were born from the heart. But that doesn't mean i can't recognise things better this time round. Like i said, the two contexts in terms of living here and seeing things pan out are not the same. The country WAS split last time, i believe most thais had in their admirable way already moved on since the last election. However the black hand that leads the PAD demonstrators is feverishly, and pathetically, at work unfortunately.
Apologies for any negative barbs i may have sent your way. As usual, even when i've given up on the papers, fucking politics barges into one's consciousness... but yes, democracy for nations like thailand is the best thing. Agreed man!
Yay!
Result!
Nice one!
A profoundly honest post, fela. Full of vunerability and acceptance that you may be wrong here.
Respect, mate.
I recognise, acknowledge and empathise with your willingness to address the potential blind spots that may have restricted your capacity to engage more "objectively" (whatever that is
) with the issues at hand.Trust me, the battle to rid myself of my arrogance is the most profound that I've ever engaged in - the willingness to genuinely interact with those who I think are wrong in an open minded way, is the most difficult process of my life. And, the most rewarding.
You have just provided me with some inkling that the battle (despite how it "feels",) may be worthwhile.
I'm far from finished in trying to smash my "belief system" into pieces, in order that I may construct a better paradigm of reality - it's a daily challenge.
But in the meantime, in my world........
.....Fuckin' respect fela fan, maaaaaan, for your willingness to open up, engage - and learn. To challenge your own limited-thinking, biases and prejudices and to value the process of self renewal that such self-analysis can precipitate..
You're wrong on this one and you've got the balls to both get it and acknowledge it.
Respect, maaaaaaaaaan!
Meanwhile, while I do understand your desire to disengage with the "news", I personally would prefer that you were re-engaged with a plethora of sources and could add voice to the variety of perspectives through a nuanced reading of all the pundits and the provision of a synopsis of the different perspectives.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a cynical cunt worse than you. But to see you swirl yourself in a confusing haze of "I don't need to keep up with the current affairs as expressed through the media", is so frustrating to me (and I imagine others on Urban).
I assert that you have an Urban duty to be a fully media-informed, rational, multi-source educated, completely engaged, integrated and yet broadly exposed and as objective as possible, providing the wiiiiiiiidest of perspectives - human-Urbanite-on-the-ground-in-Thailand.....that Urban75 has ever seen. Step up to the plate, man, you're in a unique position to provide this level of informed perspective to Urban75.
Please forgive me if it's presumptious to hope that you will fulfill this role on Urban75. It's just that I do think you could and would be a superb commentator on events in the land of smiles.
And I will keep arguing for you to engage in that role.
But only if you are willing to provide us with that insight - as distinct from your own desires - and the only way for you to achieve that will be for you to not restrict your political reading, but to expand it.
Again, I fully understand your desire to disengage - imagine my own frustrations given the political reality here in HK after all this time. I'm about ready to offer up my worn-out, multi-demo, marching boots as an example of the most worthless political-artifacts on the planet...
But, I really believe that if you re-engage with the process of critical, political analysis of the "realpolitik" and extend yourself (yet again, against your better judgement and with your full critical faculties engaged,) into the intellectual conundrum that is politics in Thailand, you will serve the "Truth" far better than rationalising your disengagement.
Or something.
Anyway, it's 5:00 am again and my life could do with a bit more of "having any income, any job, any future, or any hope" than it does.
So I guess I should stop "cunting" you, fela, to engage a little more objectively with us here - and should probably, properly, fuck off and focus on any kind of salvation to my own imminent demise in degredation, squalor, indignity, solitude and suicide.
But I just can't help sticking my useless cunt into the mix and remonstrating that if you stopped the "I've given up reading politics and am above that squalour", and rather started to get down in the dirt again with those of us that still, against all odds, do give a fourpenny fuck about the integrity of the political process.....
....I really do think you could be a powerful and relevant political voice on these matters within the Urban75 space - and I don't want to see your contribution relgated to the realm of the evidential loonies here and seen as such.
Wake up, get involved.
Don't stop reading the media - start reading it all and help to provide us "Urban-ill-informeds'" (as we inevitably are,) with a fully balanced, well-informed view and analysis of Thai politics.
Or don't of course - I do realise the depth of the commitment I am requesting.
Anyway, mate, love you without condition and wish you contentment.
Fair?
Blessings all and, remember, be nice to each other....
Woof
Hey, that was a lot to take in! Cheers, but worry not, if i had given up on politics fully, i'd not be on urban. It's my link to my past. Furthermore, i still read books on the subject, i still read politics on the net (eg commondreams which is most good in my book), and so on. I read the paper at the weekend, ostensibly for the word games and sport, but the weekly wrap up and commentary and analysis gets into my head.
But i had a duty to myself to stop letting politicians and politics give me so much grief and angst. And when i saw what was happening in our world, shortly after coming to thailand it was a shocking discovery. I spent years in the 90s reading up on stuff, and after a while i just simply stepped back. It had become necessary. You can see what thaksin did to me...! And i got off more lightly than just about all my mates over here because i just stopped reading about him, and refused to enter conversations about him. The country became obsessed over him. I had a life to enjoy!
More later, i have 19 holes to negotiate... but cheers for your reply!
But i had a duty to myself to stop letting politicians and politics give me so much grief and angst. And when i saw what was happening in our world, shortly after coming to thailand it was a shocking discovery. I spent years in the 90s reading up on stuff, and after a while i just simply stepped back. It had become necessary. You can see what thaksin did to me...! And i got off more lightly than just about all my mates over here because i just stopped reading about him, and refused to enter conversations about him. The country became obsessed over him. I had a life to enjoy!
More later, i have 19 holes to negotiate... but cheers for your reply!
Jessie, and others, here's a link to a story in today's bkk post.
I'm interested in any reactions more to the replies than the original article. I think the varied points being put forward give a good indication just how complicated life can be in the political arena in thailand!
http://www.bangkokpost.net/topstories/topstories.php?id=130227
I'm interested in any reactions more to the replies than the original article. I think the varied points being put forward give a good indication just how complicated life can be in the political arena in thailand!
http://www.bangkokpost.net/topstories/topstories.php?id=130227
"As Mr Samak's position becomes more untenable, his resignation and the PAD's blackmailed success would be an event of infamy in Thai political annals, a huge setback for Thai democracy. Even those who abhor Mr Samak but who want to see Thailand's longer-term political maturation would have to root for him to weather this round of PAD-instigated maelstrom."
A good indication of the terrible state of affairs that has been reached thus far. For a country famed for the ability of compromise in her people's genes, it is terrible to see the stark black and whiteness of affairs at the moment. Wise heads will need to prevail to avoid a very dark stain on the country.
http://www.bangkokpost.net/topstories/topstories.php?id=130220
A good indication of the terrible state of affairs that has been reached thus far. For a country famed for the ability of compromise in her people's genes, it is terrible to see the stark black and whiteness of affairs at the moment. Wise heads will need to prevail to avoid a very dark stain on the country.
http://www.bangkokpost.net/topstories/topstories.php?id=130220
purves grundy
ambient clown remix
All looking very nasty. How were these anti-PAD protesters mobilised (apparently) so quickly? Paid thugs? Were they around before?
jiggajagga
Judge_Mental
Keep your head down Fela and keep your ear to the ground. Stay safe eh!
Should be no problems mate, but cheers anyway. State of emergency in place now in bangkok, so don't know how things will pan out. My guess would be the bloodshed that the government tried to avoid. I really can't see how things can be settled peacefully considering the intransigence and bellicose rhetoric of the PAD leaders.
As usual in the ugly world of politics it's stupid ego-driven men having their ridiculous posturings forced on the rest of us.
It's at times like this when one realises that recourse to law is the ultimate friend common people have against the lunatics that attempt to force their own ideas and will on the rest of us.
Most thais around the country will just be weary of the whole bloody thing. The best thing i can say about the divisions that thaksin created the conditions for in his term of power is that it's all part of the growing pains of getting a sustainable and effective and local form of democracy that will take the nation out of its money politics. In the long term i guess he exposed the divisions that were hidden before. Once out in the open, somehow they can eventually be compromised over and healed.
In the meantime i think it's all going to end nastily!
purves grundy
ambient clown remix
Is it that all there is to it, though? When any sort of collective action movement takes place, the first question I ask is what's in it for the individuals involved. The usual state of affairs anywhere in the world is for people to free ride on the efforts of others, so what's mobilised this lot?
Just got off the phone to one of my customers who lives in Patong.
Spoke to him the other day and they were pretty flooded now things are a bit crazy. He was supposed to be coming to London to meet with us in a couple of weeks but has selfishly cancelled the trip!!!
Spoke to him the other day and they were pretty flooded now things are a bit crazy. He was supposed to be coming to London to meet with us in a couple of weeks but has selfishly cancelled the trip!!!
Good question.
The apparent leader of the PAD used to be a business chum of thaksin. Says it all really.
The amazing thing is the power of rhetoric. Yet again. You get the ownership to the vehicle of language, and you get the power. Crowd psychology: well worth investigating in a sort of academic way. The amount of strikes that seem to be being prepared, including cutting off water and electricity to police stations and other government agencies...
There really is no direct reason for this lot to be protesting. It can only be the agenda of those in charge of the PAD, or the black hand operating behind the scene.
It's a terrible moment in thai history. But their resilience will guide them through it all. But, fireworks will be the order of the day for the moment...
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